How is your truck set up for an expedition??

[michaelgroves]

Also, some of the people in the west criticising those in the east for using GPS...

I'm trying to figure out, if I'm in the UK, am I in the east or the west...? Hang on, where's my GPS?

 

[Crookthumb]

Do people not keep track of any land marks or topography when they are travelling? Like we passed a waterfall or cliff back there about three miles and we have been heading in a northeast direction so we should be about here. Oh look that knoll looks like these lines on the map. In high school I competed in orienteering competitions in the swamps of Louisiana using only a map and a compass. I looked at the topography where I was and figured out where I was on a map. It isn't that difficult. A GPS is a modern luxury, but to say that they are required is absurd. You become less involved in your travels. You become more concerned with a path on a screen than the scenery around you. I thought "overlanding" was about getting away from it all, exploring, finding new places. If all you are doing is following a waypoint, where is the adventure? So who cares if you get turned around for a little bit, isn't it rewarding when you find your way out. GPSs are nice, but don't restrict your experiences to them.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Waterfall? Cliffs? Heading in 1 direction for any period of time? None of that happens in these forests. Canadian Shield topography is pretty shallow, and isn't represented well by 100ft gradients. You can't see anything for the forest of trees. Trails come and go faster than they can update the maps.

There's a reason why most exploring in the old days invovled following bodies of water.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Here's a little challenge to show what I'm talking about. Can you identify these lakes in this photo which were taken from a fire tower. This tower is 80 feet tall, and perched at the top of one the highest peaks in the area. Alternatively, identify any of the other peaks you see.

Obviously you need some reference point. The tower is located in the immediate vicinity of Lac Cayamant Quebec. This photo was taken from the same location.

Now, imagine being IN the trees. Even at the top of this peak, all you can see is trees, because the peak is not bare. Here's another example. This photo was taken on what was a 100 foot wide clearcut logging road 10 years ago. This road is on current maps still. That is the road directly ahead, but it just ends. I'm just showing this as a demonstration of how fast a "road" disappears up here.

 

[superpowerdave]

I think of GPS as just another resource when heading out yonder.

It's an improvement on maps and compasses to some degree in that just about anybody can punch in a destination and follow the bread crumbs, whereas it takes a degree of education and some practice and skill with a map and compass to use them effectively and efficiently.

There are downsides to GPS just as there are downsides to maps and the quality of what they can represent - admittedly, I've been burned in one way or another by both either by dead batteries, bad data or no data, so we carry both hoping that between the two we'll have the full picture.

Another thing to really think about too is how infant the GPS technology really is. It's only been since 2000 that the intentional signal degradation was removed by the military, so we've really yet to begin to see just how far the advances in the technology will go. GPS is still a baby, but so it's been an interesting and useful baby.

By comparison, think of all the old maps you've looked over through the years - how many of those were spot-on perfect from the onset? Not many. Maps too, had a learning curve.

 

[kellymoe]

When i see pictures like that I thank the Lord I dont live back East. You truly cannot see the forest for the trees and I guess that is why I love the desert and the high mountains of the West. Trees get in the way of a good view:sombrero:

Here's a little challenge to show what I'm talking about. Can you identify these lakes in this photo which were taken from a fire tower. This tower is 80 feet tall, and perched at the top of one the highest peaks in the area. Alternatively, identify any of the other peaks you see.

Obviously you need some reference point. The tower is located in the immediate vicinity of Lac Cayamant Quebec. This photo was taken from the same location.

Now, imagine being IN the trees. Even at the top of this peak, all you can see is trees, because the peak is not bare. Here's another example. This photo was taken on what was a 100 foot wide clearcut logging road 10 years ago. This road is on current maps still. That is the road directly ahead, but it just ends. I'm just showing this as a demonstration of how fast a "road" disappears up here.

 

[michaelgroves]

I think for any discussion on the value of GPS, it's worth distinguishing between the various ways a GPS can be used:

1) to give your current lat and long, where you use paper maps for the actual navigation.
2) The GPS displaying a map, with your current position indicated.
3) The GPS as a navigation system, automatically choosing a route from your current position to your destination, and merely giving you turn-by-turn navigational instructions.

I'm all for 1 and 2, but I absolutely detest in-car navigation systems of type 3.

 

[Crookthumb]

Waterfall? Cliffs? Heading in 1 direction for any period of time? None of that happens in these forests. Canadian Shield topography is pretty shallow, and isn't represented well by 100ft gradients. You can't see anything for the forest of trees. Trails come and go faster than they can update the maps.

There's a reason why most exploring in the old days invovled following bodies of water.

Here's a little challenge to show what I'm talking about. Can you identify these lakes in this photo which were taken from a fire tower. This tower is 80 feet tall, and perched at the top of one the highest peaks in the area. Alternatively, identify any of the other peaks you see.

Obviously you need some reference point. The tower is located in the immediate vicinity of Lac Cayamant Quebec. This photo was taken from the same location.

Let's see you are probably on the South West side of Lac Cayamant. So the first picture you are probably looking East South East at the two small ponds and the second picture you are looking North East at Lac Cayamant. The base of the tower would probably be located between 400 and 420 meters. Meaning that this picture would be taken between 425-445 meters. The shoreline is around 200 meters so the relief would be over about 200 meters or ~660 feet. I can't tell you the name of those specific peaks, but they are between 300 and 340 meters. There are waterfalls located about 30 kilometers southwest from this location near Fort-Colougne, and some located a little further to the east.

When you learn how to read a map you can find out where you are. You don't need a GPS to give your coordinates. GPSs make it easy yes they are great devices. Now a flat desert or shifting sand dunes would be an area where a GPS would come in handy. I am not saying I would never own one it just isn't on the top of the list of things to prepare to explore.

 

[Explorer 1]

Expedition or exploring?

Interesting question.

I’ve tried to build my rig with two sometime opposing goals, one being a vehicle that I can survive, and/or thrive in a wilderness environment that sometimes provides less than friendly weather for several days (boy was that a run on sentence!), the other a vehicle that can take me just about anywhere I want to go on a trail/road.

The first requires some creature comforts and equipment to add some level or civilization to a stay in a less than friendly environment. The second begs as light as possible a vehicle with other equipment, which would aid in the recovery and forward continuation of the vehicle.

I’ve seen some very nicely equipped vehicles which one could literally live in for weeks but were so heavy and cumbersome that they severely limited their ability on some of the more difficult trails, I would put my SMB in this category.

I’m sure there are lots of individuals who can enlighten me on what they have done to make the vehicles livable and then explain the off-road abilities of their “expedition vehicles”. :sombrero:

Thanks,
Fred
Explorer 1 & 2

 

[Nonimouse]

I'm going through all this again, having sold the 100" and going back to a 110.

Way I see it is break it all down, remembering each to his/her own and then keep it simple.

For example:

Water - Drinking;Washing; Purifying of

Fuel - Vehicle; cooking

Health - first aid; second aid; washing; drinking; eating

Sleep - RTT; Tent; Swag; Hammock

Clothes - etc etc

Vehicle - etc etc


Just work out a list for what you require then pick up ideas on how to do it from other folk

As for navigation - reading a map is essential but decent help is cooler. The map is the back up and the friend in need. I use an e-Trek for location in and out and a GoBook for real time electric map on MM or Ozi' it's fitted with the best hard wire aerial I could afford. The MM/ Ozi gives me access to all scales of maps that I have filed as well as sat and plane photos; this is in 2D and 3D - so I know where I am. I can also use a sun compass, azimuth compass, marching compass, watch and read the sun/stars as well as work on dead reckoning. Hey I like navigation!

 

[Scott Brady]

Is that hill by any strange chance north of Casa Grande, AZ?

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Let's see you are probably on the South West side of Lac Cayamant. So the first picture you are probably looking East South East at the two small ponds and the second picture you are looking North East at Lac Cayamant. The base of the tower would probably be located between 400 and 420 meters. Meaning that this picture would be taken between 425-445 meters. The shoreline is around 200 meters so the relief would be over about 200 meters or ~660 feet. I can't tell you the name of those specific peaks, but they are between 300 and 340 meters. There are waterfalls located about 30 kilometers southwest from this location near Fort-Colougne, and some located a little further to the east.

When you learn how to read a map you can find out where you are. You don't need a GPS to give your coordinates. GPSs make it easy yes they are great devices. Now a flat desert or shifting sand dunes would be an area where a GPS would come in handy. I am not saying I would never own one it just isn't on the top of the list of things to prepare to explore.

Not bad. The tower is at 401m, at 46° 03' 59.14"N 76° 18' 02.50"W

Those peaks you are seeing are actually close to 400m. And the lakes... I'm not even sure which they are. There are so many small ponds in the area. It could be Lac a Rondeau and Lac a Framboise, or Lac Petit Poisson Blanc and Lac Croche.

So, it sorta proves my point. Despite having an artificially improved view of the area, you really can't tell where you are at all. You got the altitude of the tower right because I told you it was the highest peak in the area around Cayamant. You got the base altitude right from whatever maps you're looking at. Beyond that, you really don't know where you are, or where you would be if you went to those two little lakes.

If you were at Lac Cayamant which is large and distinguishable, it takes 1 hour to hike up to the peak. Without the tower, all you would see are trees. If you climbed the tower, which is a huge luxury, you still can't really figure out where you are.

My point is, none of this is distinguishable. You can't navigate by sight. You can't navigate by compass if you are travelling by land, because you keep having to detour due to water. The ONLY way around up here is by following a river, such as they did 100's of years ago, or brute force clearcutting a path such as the loggers do.

Orienteering up here is a fun game that Scouts play in a small confined area they can venture in over the course of 1 hour, with landmarks chosen and placed on a map such that they have a chance of success.

The waterfall at Fort Coulong, which is actually 80km on land, takes over 2 hours by way of improved gravel road and highway. You don't just set out from Fort Coulong and travel NW until you find Cayamant. It doesn't work like that. Not unless you're flying.

Dead reckoning is impossible unless you're travelling by canoe, and compass bearings are useless unless travelling by land because the water meanders, and then they're useless by land anyway, because you keep having to deviate to get around water.

As another example, Lac Dumont is the nearest distinguishable landmark, it's only 6km away from the tower. But, it takes about 1 hour, 16km, by improved gravel road. There used to be a trail they built to bring the tower to that peak which went directly west to Dumont a few years back. It was a pretty good trail, considering the size of the equipment used. That trail is on some maps. That trail is now rendered useless, because beavers dammed a river and flooded out a section. Again, speaking to the changeability of the area.

 

[discotdi]

I thought we were talking about expedition equipped vehicles?

 

[Desert Dan]

and it was in a Land Rover thread?

 

[Explorer 1]

Location of climb....

Is that hill by any strange chance north of Casa Grande, AZ?

Scott,

Sorry nope, that's Heart Attack Hill on the Pinyon Canyon trail in Anza Borrego, Ca.

It's a clip from a youtube movie, see the whole thing at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi6-pLtDsl0

Sorry about the lowly Jeep posting in the Land Rover column.

Thanks,
Fred
Explorer 1