How often do you really use your winch?

[SeaRubi]

Ha-I'm sure the Black Rat works, but Storing all that cable and putting it away would be a pain in the rear. The safe design is not the hold on the cable, every winch does that! Besides if I'm reading right, you are winching a Subaru? It's probably light enough to push out of a hole with a couple of your friends. (I speak from experience-I had a GL wagon and used to drive around on the dirt roads in the Sierras. Loved my Subaru for it's versatility. Not much ground clearance though.)

I've seen Bill Burke do his hilift winch demonstration, and in my opinion it's a time filler. It's what you do if you are alone, if you don't have another vehicle and if you happen to have a hilift and rigging gear. Not a common scenerio. No one, not even BB would chose to winch that way.

Back to the original question-you end up using your winch enough to make it worth having.

I don't know why some of you folks keep arguing against manual devices. There seems to be some huge misconception about when a manual device would be deployed, and how it can augment a recovery driven by an electric winch.

There are a wide range of conditions and scenarios where a straight pull from an electric winch is not the best option to perform a recovery. The goal might be to stabilize a vehicle in order to make a mechanical diagnosis and subsequent repair. You might need to employ other rigging to keep a vehicle under control while being recovered by the electric winch. You may need to reduce the amount of forward resistance before winching forward is desirable or even possible. In other instances, you may need to be winched backward and reset left or right a couple of feet to make forward progress possible. In these cases, especially, employing extra hands to rig and operate a manual winch for the short distance backward is easier to do, while the front winch is geared for the longer haul by other party members. In yet other cases, sometimes the damned winch just does not work because there has been a failure of the vehicles electrical system.

In short: equipping yourself with MORE gear provides MORE OPTIONS for a WIDER RANGE of recovery scenarios.

If it is the case that your adventures have not required the use of other equipment than a straight pull off an electric winch, that's fine - but stop telling the folks with experience otherwise that they're somehow wrong or misguided.

 

[madizell]

The argument is not so much against manual devices, because they can and do work. The argument is rather for winching in favor of manual devices because the electric or hydraulic (or if you are fortunate, PTO) winch is simply far faster. Not necessarily faster in line speed, although they are that too. Faster is terms of setting up, getting out, and storing gear. I can rig a winch, get unstuck, and restore cable in minutes, all with a high degree of safety. With a Hi-Lift or Black Rat, the set-up time is astronomically longer, the Hi-Lift especially has to be set up in line length within the stroke length of the lift before you even get tension on the line, and with the Black Rat, you have to handle a rather heavy instrument during your entire recovery, and be careful you don't get a slipping handle in the face.

If someone on a trail ride I was leading got stuck and wanted to get unstuck using the Hi-Lift or come along, I would let them -- once. After that, I would give them a tug. The day isn't long enough to do it twice in the same solar cycle.

As for the other conditions mentioned, one may deploy manual devices in these scenarios, but one may also use a winch for the same job. Having done many technical recoveries in very dangerous conditions, I have yet to see a time when a manual device would actually be better than a good winch mounted to a 2-ton vehicle. So, it is not my intention, certainly, to suggest that those who use, or have used, or prefer to use manual devices are somehow wrong-headed. It is just that no matter what the argument, a good working winch will outperform any manual device in terms of time, strength, and safety of operation. If you only use a winch once a year, a hand winch like the Black Rat will probably work just fine, and they are generally cheaper than even a cheap electric winch. If you are one of those who uses recovery every time you go out, you won't want a manual device.

 

[Superu]

Besides if I'm reading right, you are winching a Subaru? It's probably light enough to push out of a hole with a couple of your friends.

Unfortunately, it's not as light as you'd think these days, but I was talking more about my experience with my Monteros. Without a decent aftermarket domestically for them at the time, I was forced to make do and got quite good at quickly deploying and stowing my black rat.

That said, if money's not an issue, a good warn is a nice to have. :safari-rig:

 

[cruiser guy]

Frankly in the rollover situation I have pictured earlier we were able to right the truck but because of loss of ATF we could not move the truck. We tried with a come-along but it did not have the length needed once the slack was taken out. Something like the "Black Rat" would have been handy IN ADDITION to the winch. Also, with reference to PTO vs electric, for self recovery I'd prefer an electric winch and gel cell (Optima or similar) batteries. A PTO would not have been any use in the rollover scenario as you cannot run an internal combustion engine upside down.

I guess what I'm trying to say is there is no "silver bullet" that works in all situations.

 

[lowenbrau]

Also, with reference to PTO vs electric, for self recovery I'd prefer an electric winch and gel cell (Optima or similar) batteries. A PTO would not have been any use in the rollover scenario as you cannot run an internal combustion engine upside down.

I guess what I'm trying to say is there is no "silver bullet" that works in all situations.

Agreed with a couple of notes.

Optimas are not gel cell but simply well sealed, maybe glass mat, I can't remember.

If you have an upside down rig with a PTO and are stuck without options, You can run the engine on the starter to get the job done. Pulling the sparkplugs or glowplugs makes it spin better and you'll want to do that anyway once the rig is on its feet again. .

 

[laurie-the-lorry]

lowenbrau

I would never, NEVER contemplate turning an engine over whilst in an upside down position.

Unfortunately I have had my Land rover T#t's up a couple of times. I would have been adding to my already problematic day by removing the glow plugs and spinning the engine.

 

[lowenbrau]

lowenbrau

I would never, NEVER contemplate turning an engine over whilst in an upside down position.

Unfortunately I have had my Land rover T#t's up a couple of times. I would have been adding to my already problematic day by removing the glow plugs and spinning the engine.

I guess, I have to ask... why?

 

[viatierra]

I asked my self the same question when building my latest vehicle. Sure I've had winches and used them. These days, I just don't drive into those situations anymore. You could argue that you've gotta have a fridge to keep the beer cold... Gotta have dual batteries to power the fridge...

I think the winch is in the same catagory. If you need a winch, then you need all the accessories. If you need a winch then you need bumpers. This time I've decided to pass on the winch, accessories & bumper. I've saved quite a bit of money, weight, gas and hassle with a simpler setup. Besides, in the unlikely event that a winch is needed, one of the other trucks I'm travelling with will most certianly have it.

Ask yourself this question: What's worse than finding yourself up a creek without a winch? (A: staying home and watching TV)

 

[madizell]

Staying home and watching TV beats being stuck up a creek without a winch every time.

Not that it is related, but the last time I went out with the Nissan, which does not have a winch, we rejected crossing the Hassayampa even though it only had maybe 6 or 8 inches of water because if we did get stuck in the sandy bottom, there was no way out. I just won't go into those situations alone without a winch.

Optima is an absorbed glass mat battery. They should not be mounted upside down, but will tolerate the condition for brief period. At least long enough to run a winch for a roll over recovery, assuming the power lasts long enough for the job.

Most vehicles don't like being upside down if for no other reason than they don't oil well in that condition. If you have inverted fuel and oil, it doesn't matter.

Roll over and a PTO can be problematic, but one might envision an unlimited number circumstantial combinations that preclude the use of almost any device for self recovery. I have seen far more times when it was just about impossible to get to the rear of a vehicle to get gear out the back than times when a vehicle was upside down and could not use a winch. The only occasion I have known where a winch could not be deployed to self-recover from a roll was in the 2003 Outback Challenge when a Toyota FJ rolled on its side in shallow water. Could not use the PTO in that case only because the snorkel intake was under water. Otherwise, the team was going to start the diesel and use the winch. They got help from a race mate.

On the other hand, in the same race, my co-driver and I self-recovered from a roll over using the electric winch, a tree strap, and a snatch block. From roll-over to back on the trail took 12 minutes. It is just a matter of circumstances, and with most such things, we don't always control the circumstances.

 

[MuddyMudskipper]

For those of you who do expedition or all-terrain travel, how often do you actually use your winch?

I have used my winch often enough that it has payed for itself and helped me stack some trail karma chips along the way. I've self extracted myself when I was out alone with a dead front driveshaft, pulled a sand rail out of a gully after it had rolled off the side of a mountain, and used it to recover a truck that could go nowhere under its own power with no room for a tug (to name a few).

 

[AndrewP]

I asked my self the same question when building my latest vehicle. Sure I've had winches and used them. These days, I just don't drive into those situations anymore. You could argue that you've gotta have a fridge to keep the beer cold... Gotta have dual batteries to power the fridge...

I think the winch is in the same catagory. If you need a winch, then you need all the accessories. If you need a winch then you need bumpers. This time I've decided to pass on the winch, accessories & bumper. I've saved quite a bit of money, weight, gas and hassle with a simpler setup. Besides, in the unlikely event that a winch is needed, one of the other trucks I'm travelling with will most certianly have it.

Ask yourself this question: What's worse than finding yourself up a creek without a winch? (A: staying home and watching TV)

Coming from the standpoint of leading numerous runs through Rubicon, Dusy , Death Valley etc, not having a winch is not an option. While it's true that someone in the group will probably have one, you can't always count on it. If the guy at the front has a winch and a guy in the back of the line does not, It's a major effort to get set up for a recovery. Having a winch increases the chances of dealing with the problem quickly, easily and with a minimum of rigging. Plus, putting away the winch cable after a recovery is a 30 second problem.

I had to winch myself twice on Thompson Hill on Dusy this year. Each episode took at most 5 minutes. If I were rigging a hand winch or worse yet a hilift, I'd probably still be there, since the other guys had to winch in the same spots. Instead the two spots were just a bump in the road so to speak.

Think about how much you spend to equip a vehicle, drive to the trailhead, Camera gear, radios, food etc, is a winch a significant expense when it can totally save your trip?

I must admit, that I've used my winch to winch fellow travellers more than myself, it's still extremely handy to have. I really don't see a compelling argument not to have one.

 

[toyrunner95]

There is a reason the WARN motto is the same as the Boy Scouts. GO PREPARED. There is no reason to go if you aren't prepared for any and everything. Why bring tools? Why bring an extra jacket, Why bring anything? Because we might NEED it.

I dont leave the pavement without it.

 

[lowenbrau]

Once helped a Rover club marshal their off road challenge and my job was to help the teams that could not complete a certain obstical. Some teams with later, more capable, better equiped rigs had no trouble driving or winching up. Other teams, taking pride in running old school, drove as far as they could and then pulled out the turfors. Man though guys worked hard not to take the point on the obstical. Often after 45 minutes, they breathlessly took the point anyway and had me winch them up. Hand winches are really usefull tools and will get you out of a jam when there is no option but are a bit like driving a pedal car off road. A winch is a small sacrifice to make for insurance. A Tirfor would be a nice accessory to a winch

My fire extinguishers, on the other hand, never get used. They're a piece of kit that goes obsolete every five years, are bulky, limited where you can mount them. A serious liability if one were to discharge accidentally, and never in 15 year have I used one.

 

[madizell]

My fire extinguishers, on the other hand, never get used. They're a piece of kit that goes obsolete every five years, are bulky, limited where you can mount them. A serious liability if one were to discharge accidentally, and never in 15 year have I used one.

But you still have one. So do I, and right after mounting three on the vehicle, I had an hydraulic clutch line failure which jetted fluid on the exhaust headers. Instant fire. Put out in moments. When I think of all those years I drove around the woods without one...

 

[SeaRubi]

This has been an enjoyable thread Reading back through there are some good observations. A big distinction has formed over the course of the thread: much depends on the type of trip you're on and what you expect of yourself and your vehicle during the trip.

There is no way in hell, not ever, that I would attempt or recommend going on a trip to the Rubicon sans winch. At this level of terrain every vehicle needs to be equipped. I totally agree with madizell about the "use once" then get on with the trail run comment on someone using a hi-lift to self-recover. Trail runs have their own protocol and waiting around all day for someone to be macho or prove something isn't part of it.

Now, let's talk about "overlanding" a moment. If we're talking unimproved twin-tracks for a few thousand miles, the risk factor goes way down, and perhaps it's worth the investment. Maybe, at first glance this is true. I still think you should outfit with an electric winch. The cost is nominal and the benefits are many. Think about this - how many times did Brady and company need to use their winch on the 2007 Arctic Expedition? Maybe the didn't. At temps in the range of -5F during the day and going down to -30F in the dead of night, what piece of equipment would you want to rely on if you had to? Pretty self-explanatory. Now, if I were back on a trip to the Baja peninsula and was looking forward to 80~90 degree temps in a mild part of the season - I probably wouldn't let the absence of a winch hinder me from getting out and exploring if the cost was a go/no-go factor. It ultimately comes down to risk mitigation. If you get stuck and have to "bug-out", what are your chances of survival, and what are the chances of coming back with help to recover your vehicle?

Speaking of mitigating risk, for me, a manual winch device is a must-have. I require having a plan "B", and I've been in scenarios where it was required to use in conjunction with the electric winch to perform a safe, controlled recovery.

As for ease of rigging and different types of manual winches - I am a HUGE fan of the Wyeth-Scott "more power puller". This is a US made tool, has wire rope on a real drum, good safety hook, and a beefy cage design with a heavy duty pawl. It's based on using a block so effort is theoretically half of what the rating would be on a straight pull. To ensure your safety, the handle is designed to deform and bend preventing the operator from overloading the tool. CHECK IT OUT - it's only $100, is a cinch to rig up, and can come in handy to stabilize a vehicle while being winched from the front. The cable spools up on the drum, unlike the black rat design, and I'd reckon it weighs quite a bit less. I've always been impressed with this unit.

http://www.wyeth-scott.com/

As for hi-lifts - I actually use a Maasdam Tiger Jack rated at 8,000lbs. I feel it's a sturdier jack and the mechanism does not jam as easily as a hi-lift after getting covered in mud. Some folks scoff at the over-seas construction, but after 10 years of use and abuse mine still works great and has never bent. The jack-mate is a great accessory, as are a few small lengths of chain and some smaller shackles to allow you to rig it up to pull things apart and straighten bent s1ht.

I used my tiger jack to recover my range rover a few times in deep snow. It's difficult, dehydrating, demoralizing work. That's why when I get the chance I always encourage folks to try it out if the situation permits. After one pull those same folks will be returning to the next adventure with a winch on the front, or the plans on their lips in anticipation of getting one.

As for manual recovery - I have always had much better luck jacking the vehicle up and building the surface under the tires and driving out. If a manual winch is your only option, your first strategy should be to reduce the amount of resistance being exerted on the vehicle before resorting to winching forward. A hi-lift used in conjunction with something like the wyeth-scott unit as the winch can be efficient with enough hands and teamwork. It's definitely more work but it can still be effective if you're dependent on it.

There's an old saying that's been around for a long time - what's the best bilge pump you can get? A scared sailor with a bucket! In the age of technology, nobody heads out to sea without a good bilge pump - but when the going gets tough there have to be options.

maybe that sheds some light on some of what's being said - I think there's probably a lot more consensus here than the way the thread reads.

cheers
-isaac