&*!#@* Hunters!

Jonathan Hanson

Well-known member
The ridge in question (in the last couple of incidents) is not on our property, but on the private property of another, absentee, owner. I'd like to contact him and find out if we can have a loose sort of power of attorney to go tell trespassers to leave.

The spot is less than 200 yards from our house, and thus well within illegal shooting range - if someone shoots. The hunters we see on the public land around our place, whithin 1/4 mile but not actually shooting, are violating no law except common courtesy and that of fair chase.

I'd rather not debate gun control here, but anyone who thinks keeping firearms out of the hands of private citizens will reduce crime should read this:

http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html

It's not the guns, it's the society.
 

DesertRose

Safari Chick & Supporting Sponsor
The issue here is ATVs, not guns - I'm not bothered by these guys having guns. I try to keep perspective here - the likelihood of us getting shot by them is infinitely small. The likelihood of us getting killed on Highway 86 driving to Tucson is very large - do I want to ban or more strictly control the licensing of drivers around here? No. I don't believe we can control people with laws. We have too many laws about stupid behavior - seatbelt laws, cell phone laws, now smoking-in-cars-with-children laws - that can't be enforced anyway. And most of the scary people out our way who do have guns are the meth lab people and the drug smugglers - who are here illegally and have guns, and no laws stop them. I just don't see banning or further controlling as a way to solve anything. Drugs are as controlled as they can be. It doesn't stop people using them. Okay, enough.

So, to get back to the right subject: it's a behavior issue that I think is best solved the way Lance is suggesting, that is positive education - directly.

I'll admit most the slobs are actually nice guys who are just thoughtless. I'll try it next time if I can get close. (Note: I do have little patience for the older ones who are just careless/thoughtless than I do for the teens and 20-somethings who tear around at high speed joyriding - that's what most of us did at that age - I remember some dumb stuff we did both on Honda 90s and on horseback that probably pissed some neighbors off pretty good!).

Signs: already plenty in place, they are largely ignored out here, even by people you'd think would know better (one major problem: there's this incredibly ridiculous notion that dry washes are public right of way - some stupid holdout from a 100-year-old "navigable waterways" law that was used to make the lower Colorado River and the Verde accessible for moving around logs and commodities to the gulf or rail access). So we have bozos saying "well you can't keep us out of this wash (which goes right by the house) - it's public" - not! And in Pima County it's illegal to drive in washes.

Education, then.

Far more important here is that we don't want hunting or other 4WD activities banned because the visible majority are causing others to look to ban things.

On education: Today, Jonathan and I are taking time out of a very very busy week to have lunch with 2 guys who work for and with an organization that normally we are loathe to support - I don't want to name it, but they are very litigious and powerful here - because they are putting forth legislation - a law, mind you - that would further restrict what hunters can do. We want to talk with them about why they are not working on education rather than litigation.

Stay tuned.
 

Hltoppr

El Gringo Spectacular!
DesertRose said:
On education: Today, Jonathan and I are taking time out of a very very busy week to have lunch with 2 guys who work for and with an organization that normally we are loathe to support - I don't want to name it, but they are very litigious and powerful here - because they are putting forth legislation - a law, mind you - that would further restrict what hunters can do. We want to talk with them about why they are not working on education rather than litigation.

Stay tuned.

Good luck with that guys....:chowtime:

-H-
 

Mike S

Sponsor - AutoHomeUSA
Martyn said:
...My question would be why not control the guns used for hunting? It may keep them out of the hands of the "ATV driving, environment bashing, beer swilling, low IQ, hunters" that I have been hearing about. Shouldn't effect the law abiding skilled hunters.

Martyn. I would be very hard to draw a line. Impossible to accept that our legislators could create, or our government would administer any such laws intelligently. Really.

"I am from the goverment, and I'm here to help you." The second biggest lie ever told. We all know what the first one is...
 

Martyn

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
Mike S said:
Martyn. I would be very hard to draw a line. Impossible to accept that our legislators could create, or our government would administer any such laws intelligently. Really.

"I am from the goverment, and I'm here to help you." The second biggest lie ever told. We all know what the first one is...

Mike

It seems that guns are a sacred topic that no one is really willing to discuss. It's part of the problem here but it's much more convenient to talk about the person rather than the gun.

I laugh at myself, my stupidity for thinking that such a discussion could really take place in a system where ownership of a gun is a right and citizenship a privilege.

There is no discussion to be had, no matter what is said the right of ownership is enshrined.

Oh well, it's Thanksgiving Eve I must have something I need to do. Everyone enjoy your holiday with friends and family.
 

ntsqd

Heretic Car Camper
Mike S said:
snippage.....
Martyn. I would be very hard to draw a line. Impossible to accept that our legislators could create, or our government would administer any such laws intelligently. Really.
On that note, from a recent email sent to me:

Click here to read this story online:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1121/p25s09-usju.html

Headline: U.S. Supreme Court takes up gun-rights case
Byline: Warren Richey Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
Date: 11/21/2007
Washington - The US Supreme Court has agreed to examine one of the
most disputed provisions of the Constitution – the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms.

On Tuesday, the justices announced they will take up an appeal involving the constitutionality of a Washington, D.C., law that bans the use or possession of all handguns.

The case is expected to make guns a key issue in next year's presidential and congressional elections, with the high court likely to hand down a decision in late June – four months before voters go to the polls.

Analysts are calling it political dynamite.

"This will be one of the biggest decisions ever to come down at that part of the political schedule," says Paul Helmke, president of the Washington-based Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

"For the first time in history we could get a definitive ruling on what the Second Amendment really means," adds Dave Workman, an editor at Gun Week in Bellevue, Wash. "Gun rights is going to become a centerpiece of the 2008 presidential race, whether these guys like it or not."

The case, District of Columbia v. Heller, will take the justices back to the founding of the republic to the speeches and writings of the framers themselves in an effort to decode a constitutional enigma that has divided appeals court judges and the nation's most distinguished legal scholars.

The potential landmark case is the first time since 1939 that the Supreme Court will confront whether the Second Amendment protects an individual's right of gun ownership or merely a collective right to keep and bear arms while serving in a state militia.

The answer is important because it could set the ground rules for gun-control laws across the country. If the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right, it will limit government efforts to restrict the prevalence of guns among law-abiding citizens. Gun-control efforts would have to be reasonably related to a government interest, and entire categories of firearms – like handguns – could not be banned.

In contrast, if the right to keep and bear arms is a collective right exercised solely for the purpose of serving in a state militia, individual gun owners could not claim the protection of the Constitution against gun-control laws regulating the private use of firearms.

The Second Amendment reads: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Some analysts read the amendment as providing for an armed populace and say the first clause is an explanatory statement of the necessity of having an effective military force at the state level – independent of the national government.

Other analysts see the first clause limiting the scope of the right to possess and use weapons to enrolled service in a state-regulated militia.

The Founding Fathers didn't simply write the Constitution. They also had to sell it to reluctant state residents who were fearful that the army of the national government might become as oppressive as the British military. The Second Amendment seeks to answer that fear.

Under the new government, each of the states would retain their ability to organize their own militia. The basic building block of the militia was an able-bodied citizen who reported for state military service, sometimes with his own military-grade weapon.

At issue in the Heller case is to what extent the Second Amendment applies to the private possession of guns in a modern American city. A federal appeals court in March struck down Washington's handgun ban because it violated what the court said was an individual right to firearms. The city is asking the Supreme Court to overturn the appeals court's 2-to-1 decision.

"This is the first time in the nation's history that a federal appellate court has invoked the Second Amendment to strike down any gun control law," writes the city's Solicitor General Todd Kim in his brief to the court.

Nine other federal appeals courts and the highest local court in Washington have declined to embrace an individual-rights view of the Second Amendment, Mr. Kim writes. The decision "drastically departs from the mainstream of American jurisprudence," he says.

"Only this court can resolve these conflicts about the central meaning of the Second Amendment," Kim's brief says. It adds that the issue is "quite literally a matter of life and death" because of the dangers posed by handguns.

The case arose after ******** Heller, a security guard, sued the city for allegedly violating his Second Amendment rights when police officials refused to issue a license to allow Mr. Heller to keep a handgun in his home for protection.

Under a 1976 law, the city allows only disassembled or locked rifles and shotguns. All handguns are illegal.

Heller and a group of other city residents sued, claiming the handgun ban and other city gun restrictions are unconstitutional. The appeals court agreed.

Even though they won, Heller's lawyers were also urging the Supreme Court to take up the gun case and rule in a way that establishes a national precedent upholding an individual right to keep and bear arms.

They dispute the city's characterization of the state of the law. Two federal appeals courts and at least 10 state appellate courts have upheld individual gun rights, says Heller's lawyer, Alan Gura, in his brief to the court.

"Considering the Second Amendment's text, the overwhelming weight of scholarship, the long history of judicial enforcement of the Second Amendment and its state analogs, and the consistent characterization of the Second Amendment by this court," Mr. Gura writes, "it is the 'collective rights' theory, not the individual right to arms, that departs from mainstream American jurisprudence."

Gura responds to the city's argument that its handgun ban is a matter of life and death with statistics that he says show criminals have been able to easily circumvent the ban. "Even were the city's gun ban effective in reducing crime, which it certainly does not appear to have been, it would still be unconstitutional," Gura writes.

In agreeing to take up the Heller case, the court rejected questions posed by both sides in the litigation and wrote its own question. The question: "Whether the following provisions [three sections of the D.C. gun law] violate the Second Amendment rights of individuals who are not affiliated with any state-regulated militia, but who wish to keep handguns and other firearms for private use in their homes?"
 

Mike S

Sponsor - AutoHomeUSA
Martyn said:
Mike

It seems that guns are a sacred topic that no one is really willing to discuss. It's part of the problem here but it's much more convenient to talk about the person rather than the gun.

I laugh at myself, my stupidity for thinking that such a discussion could really take place in a system where ownership of a gun is a right and citizenship a privilege.

There is no discussion to be had, no matter what is said the right of ownership is enshrined.

Martyn - I think we ARE discussing it. Just no one is agreeing with you yet.

Yes, the right to ownership of firearms is 'enshrined' in the Bill Of Rights - in the Second Amandment to the Constitution, and provides the following:

A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

This is a prohibition against the government infringing a fundamental right that was established by the framers of the Constitution. This right is as basic to Americans as the right to freedom of religion or freedom of speech. It is not something that may be tossed lightly aside because some people find it inconvenient You might as well discuss tossing freedom of speech out the window because you don't like the content or language used in a public communication.

And no, I am not an NRA member or a survivalist hiding in the Idaho back country.

I have seen a number of countries where a few licensed citizens are licensed to have firearms, and thousands of unlicensed crimnals own them as well. In the UK these regulations are becoming ever more restrictive, while at the same time, violent (gun) crime is soaring. I believe that an armed society is a polite society. You are guaranteed the right to disagree by the same Constitution that protects my right to own a firearm, if I so choose.

I would be happy to move this discussion to another thread, if you wish to begin one.
 
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Haggis

Appalachian Ridgerunner
Jonathan Hanson said:
The ridge in question (in the last couple of incidents) is not on our property, but on the private property of another, absentee, owner. I'd like to contact him and find out if we can have a loose sort of power of attorney to go tell trespassers to leave.

You might want to see about leasing the hunting rights to your neighbors property, that would give you the legal jurisdiction to post the property yourselves and to run folks off. Just make sure you know your neighbors mind well, because it might give him the notion to bid off the hunting rights to the highest bidder. You might just be able to work out a lease for just the notion of monitoring his land for vandalism for him. We have some of our timberland leased to some hunting groups for next to nothing just so there are some extra eyes on the properties for timber theft and ATV trespass.
 
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Martyn

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
Mike S said:
Martyn - I think we ARE discussing it. Just no one is agreeing with you yet.

Yes, the right to ownership of firearms is 'enshrined' in the Bill Of Rights - in the Second Amandment to the Constitution, and provides the following:

A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

This is a prohibition against the government infringing a fundamental right that was established by the framers of the Constitution. This right is as basic to Americans as the right to freedom of religion or freedom of speech. It is not something that may be tossed lightly aside because some people find it inconvenient You might as well discuss tossing freedom of speech out the window because you don't like the content or language used in a public communication.

And no, I am not an NRA member or a survivalist hiding in the Idaho back country.

I have seen a number of countries where a few licensed citizens are licensed to have firearms, and thousands of unlicensed crimnals own them as well. In the UK these regulations are becoming ever more restrictive, while at the same time, violent (gun) crime is soaring. I believe that an armed society is a polite society. You are guaranteed the right to disagree by the same Constitution that protects my right to own a firearm, if I so choose.

I would be happy to move this discussion to another thread, if you wish to begin one.

Mike, I'm sorry I should have been clearer.

I do believe you and I were discussing the issue, others don't wish to really discuss it.

I'm not looking for agreement with my view point, I'm asking perhaps too much, asking that people who love guns and hunting reflect on the issue and may be ask themselves if guns in society haven't become overwhelming.

I'm also asking that they read your quote " A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" and research the historical context of the time the amendment was made. And ask themselves how it is relevant today.

They are hard questions because if you love guns, why would you ever question any of it? You are in a position of power, the law backs you up. Sometimes you just have to question your fundamental beliefs to make sure you are on the right track.

But it's OK I'm still laughing at myself! I really don't have much to add beyond that.
 

Mike S

Sponsor - AutoHomeUSA
Looking for the archaic form and meaning of the word miltia, I found this interesting citation -

"I ask, Sir, What is the militia? It is the whole people...To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
--George Mason (One of the framers of the U.S. Constitution)

In archaic useage, the 'militia' is actually all citizens who atand ready to assemble, under the control of the state, and defend the state or their property. The state provided a core of trained (at some level) officers to command the militia groups. In essence, a civilian army, which has been he tradition in the United States all through it's history. WWII was fought by the US with a civilian army.

I am not a constitutional scholar by any means. The Amendment is clearly a recognition of the value in having the people armed. In fact, it was mandatory for many years that all men from 18 to 50 to be armed. This was also true in England, and began around the time of Henry VIII, but was was contnued there.

Even when I was a boy the Army maintained a Department of Civilian Marksmanship which supplied and promoted the use of firearms to civilian organizations interested in participating. So this 'armed citizenry' idea has a long history in the US.

To the issue of gun control... should the people be free to own firearms? I think yes, subject to the limitations of the law. There are many regulations governing who may purchase firearms, what type of firearms may be purchased, how they may be purchased, how purchase records are to be kept, how the weapons must be secured, etc.

Likewise there are laws governing the transportatio, carrying, use and abuse of firearms. If these laws were completely enforced, no criminals would be armed, and anyone using a firearm in a feloneous manner would be sent to prison.

The fact is, however, that criminals will always be armed. The question is -- will the people be in a position to defend themselves against the criminals? If an intruder breaks into my home, or threatens me with deadly force, I am within my rights to defend myself - with any weapon that comes to hand. It happens that I prefer a Colt .45 ACP pistol for this task, rather than a kitchen knife or a baseball bat. The principal of deadly force is to counter with an equal or greater force.

Using a firearm against another person - no matter the provocation - is a very serious matter. But so is murder, rape, and mayhem. If there was no violent crime in the world, we would not be having a debate about gun control, because there would be no threat from criminals and the illegal use of firearms.

That summarizes my thoughts on the subject.
 
S

Scenic WonderRunner

Guest
I've scanned this thread.........but not read the whole thing.

But...........

I'm starting to think that a Video Camera..........Might be your Best Weapon!..............:REOutArchery02:

I would be furious!......and I would also want proof!

Because I would be making plenty of phone calls!


How about a video camera in your hands.....and an AR15 over your shoulder!:REOutShootinghunter :ar15: :costumed-smiley-007



.
 
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DesertRose

Safari Chick & Supporting Sponsor
Scenic WonderRunner said:
I've scanned this thread.........but not read the whole thing.

But...........

I'm starting to think that a Video Camera..........Might be your Best Weapon!..............:REOutArchery02:

I would be furious!......and I would also want proof!

Because I would be making plenty of phone calls!


How about a video camera in your hands.....and an AR15 over your shoulder!:REOutShootinghunter :ar15: :costumed-smiley-007



.

Great idea - we've thought of it. But ATVs are unlicensed here. Absolutely no way to find out who they are. Two years and counting to try to pass the new Copper Sticker to license these things . . . being blocked by coalitions of 4WD groups. Again, people afraid of "control".

We are good trackers (we teach tracking) and I have several times tracked back ATV tires to camps or trucks. That helps.

The Copper Sticker will be a great thing, if it ever happens.
 

DesertRose

Safari Chick & Supporting Sponsor
Hltoppr said:
Good luck with that guys....:chowtime:

-H-

The guy from the Center for Biological Diversity never showed up. Never emailed me back to say sorry. Never called. (Despite a confirmation email sent Monday that he'd see us there.) This is the organization that is going to be pushing to ban the use/sale of lead ammunition in Arizona because condors in northern Arizona are apparently dying because they are ingesting lead from carcasses. We feel that banning will piss off mainstream hunters even more about conservation, and that education and local restrictions (like just in condor country?) would be better.

So much for reaching out. Cynical me thinks that the Center makes too much money on publicity for things like this - their constituency does not WANT them to sit at tables with the "bad guys." They WANT them to use the big L stick (litigation, legislation) to beat them. But I'm just cynical from too many years in this biz.

We had a nice chat and lunch with our other friend (who does not work for the Center).

Hoping to keep working together with him on outreach, and also getting a real conservation hunter appointed to the AZ Game & Fish Commission - a spot is open.
 
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Jonathan Hanson

Well-known member
Martyn, I only wrote that I didn't want to debate gun control here because I was trying to keep the subject on topic. However, you obviously feel that gun ownership is an intrinsic part of the problem, and that's completely fair.

I also don't normally like to debate gun control because I've found it a quick way to destroy friendships, and I certainly would never wish to do that with you.

The reason I think debating gun control ruins friendships is that it is not a logical debate, it is an emotional one. I have found that most people who are against private gun ownership are not that way because they have examined evidence and concluded that private gun ownership correlates to higher crime (there is no such evidence, as pretty well proved by the link I posted). They are that way simply because they do not like guns and therefore do not wish anyone to have them. That's okay, too, but it doesn't foster a classical, logical debate, only argument.

If we are to debate violent crime, we need to debate the society, not its inanimate tools. Just as if we were to debate drunken driving we would discuss the root causes of alcohol abuse, not whether we should ban cars.
 

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