I-6 or V8?

Schattenjager

Expedition Leader
Still on a quest to get my friend setup in a dependable rig, we are looking at some newer, high mileage LC's - I know the I-6 is the bulletproof unit, what about the V8? Seems like more power would be nice - might even get better MPG than an over worked I-6. Ideas?
 

calamaridog

Expedition Leader
The V8 is a great motor.

Every 100k you are looking at doing the timing belt and some other PM stuff to prepare for the next 100k miles.

You can find nice 2000+ LC's with less than 100k miles for very reasonable prices. For that matter, skip the LC and get a 4runner instead.

Really it depends on what he's using it for?
 

Schattenjager

Expedition Leader
This relates to the post I had about FJ-60's as daily drivers -

It is not going to be a permeant ride for her - maybe two years. The deal we have is I will help her research it, and when the time comes for her to move on, I'll buy it from her.

The first post here will explain the "why"
http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9245

Thought we had a nice 60 for little $, but that went away - there is a covey of 80's around - here is a list I am looking at:
 

Pokey

Adventurer
Jump on the San Francisco,Craigslist. Theres an Fzj80 series with 65k miles in great shape.(no affiliation). Guy needs to move it and probably would take 8000-8500(asking9500). If she put 20k on it in 2 years....youd be buying into a crusier with 85k miles.
 

Hltoppr

El Gringo Spectacular!
V8 100 series....that motor is fantastic! All the power you'd reasonably need, and decent efficiency...

-H-
 

Schattenjager

Expedition Leader
calamaridog said:
What price range?

The idea of a super cheap rig has come and gone. With a little help she is willing to go around $10 - $10K

There is no shortage of 80's for sale - I just saw one with a V8 and thought I would see what ExPo knew about that motor.

Thanks for the Craigslist add - I'll look into it.
 

kbellve

Observer
Schattenjager said:
know the I-6 is the bulletproof unit

Who told you that? Toyota doesn't make a gas engine with a cast iron block and aluminum head that is bullet proof. The question is not if it will blow a head gasket, but when. The newer V8 might be a much more reliable engine because it shouldn't have to deal with the different expansion coefficients of cast iron and aluminum.

The older 1F..etc are nearly bullet proof, but not the FZJ80 motor.
 

upcruiser

Perpetual Transient
While I'm an inline 6 enthusiast of the first order due to the fact that it is a great engine design (one of three engine configurations that are inherently balanced in regards to 2nd order harmonics), I will concede to that fact that the V8 is a great motor and spoils you with its effortless oomph and efficiency. Power indeed corrupts.:wings:
 

calamaridog

Expedition Leader
Schattenjager said:
The idea of a super cheap rig has come and gone. With a little help she is willing to go around $10 - $10K

There is no shortage of 80's for sale - I just saw one with a V8 and thought I would see what ExPo knew about that motor.

Thanks for the Craigslist add - I'll look into it.

10K would get you into a 4runner or an 80 no problem.

80's don't have a V8 unless it's a conversion?
 

kbellve

Observer
No, the 7M-GTE didn't taint my views :) But, reading the Supra email/forums groups and you can only come away with one conclusion, and that the 7M motor has HG issues.

The 22RE (twice on two different 4Runners) and the 1FZ blowing its head gasket kind of tainted me...and then you can just search ih8mud for head gasket and see how many hits you get.

Toyota makes great small engines, and their big all aluminum engines seem to be doing well. The earlier tractor motors also do well, but I wouldn't give Toyota a pass on their aluminum/cast iron engines just because their other engines are reliable.

Having a 22RE making it to 100K shouldn't be considered an accomplishment. Hell, any engine can do that, but having it make it to 200K is an accomplishment. If it ain't HG, then your timing chain will be eating it the cover long before you hit 200K.

I spent my weekend working on my LX450, which had a HG problem at 90K (it is at 163K now). I put on OME springs/shocks, and working on the stainless steel extended brake lines.

Oh...the new BMW GS800 looks sweet! (just wanted to mention that)
 

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
kbellve said:
Having a 22RE making it to 100K shouldn't be considered an accomplishment. Hell, any engine can do that, but having it make it to 200K is an accomplishment. If it ain't HG, then your timing chain will be eating it the cover long before you hit 200K.
My 22R-E bottom end went 192K and was still turning. Looked like the #3 crank bearings had more play than I liked, but nothing was badly worn and no scoring. It was my piece of crap aftermarket METAL guides that failed me, destroying the timing cover, bending at least one valve. Upon disassembling my engine, I found my HG was in OK shape, but replacement wasn't long in the future. So my conclusion is the 22R engine is a solid mile long block as long as periodic timing chain, tensioner and guide replacement is done at 125,000 intervals using OEM parts (yes, even the OEM plastic guides) and Toyota Red coolant and distilled water (I believe not using low silica coolant and hard water is what eats the HG on R and FZ motors, no proof of that, tho) is used. If you look at the Toyota service procedure for the 22R-E it has you pulling the head to do the timing parts, so that means the HG gets done at the ~125,000 service. I'm not arguing that the alloy head/iron block engines are anywhere near the F/2F/3F in reliability. They are not and are nowhere near the same league. But the R-motors and the 1FZ are still very reliable engines with much improved mileage and on-highway characteristics. There are millions of 22R/-E engines out there with several hundred thousand miles on them and that can't indicate a flawed design. There are known issues, the timing is a big one, that can be dealt with leaving you with a very known quantity. That is why I stuck with the 22R-E when I did the rebuild, there is as much known about it as the 2F in my old FJ40 and that is invaluable. I don't expect 500,000 miles out of this rebuild, but if I do 100,000 timing and HG R&Rs, I do expect this to be the last gasoline engine I ever buy for this truck.
 
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zimm

Expedition Leader
id rather have the last gen i-6 than the first gen v-8. off the line the sedan heritage shows. too bad they didnt sell 100's in the us with the 1-6. like i suggested, get an 80. you can pick up a decent rig for 5-6k. especially out where salt is only a condiment.
 

Brian894x4

Explorer
The head gasket issue on all of the Toyotas appears to be less a design flaw and more a materials flaw. My understanding is that when Toyota was no longer allowed to use absestos in their gasket material they were left with poor headgasket material for a number of years, until technology caught up.

IMO, the 22R does not have a defective head gasket issue like the 1FZ and 3.0 V-6. Instead, any headgasket issues that occure in the 22R are most likely due the engine being overheated at some point and warping the head at some point in its life. The 22R does have a timing chain design flaw, but is the result of a mysterious change in design that occured in 1983 when they went to cheaper single timing chain. The single chain alone is not the culprit, since the 1FZ also has a single chain, but virtually no timing chain issues. The plastic guides are commonly blamed, as they were part of the redesign in '83. Prior R motors and the 1FZ both have metal guides. But I also know that the 22R chain stretches and breaks, sometimes indepedent of the guides, so who knows. However, a defective chain design that only lasts 130-190K miles is much different than pistons making holes in the side of the blocks and is an easy repair. Most engines require replacing the timing belt or chain anyway at some interval and is just considered normal maintainence.

Otherwise, the 22R and 1FZ are in fact bulletproof motors and two of the most reliable engines ever designed. What makes them exceptional is that they not only last many hundreds of thousands of miles, but they can do so under very extreme conditions, including severe cold and hot weather conditions and pushing loads well beyond their design intentions. But like any mechanic devise they can still fail and they operate under a wide variety of conditions, which will affect motors differently. But comparing them to other engines, they are definately exceptional designs.

Toyota's basic 20/22R design lasted from the early 1970s through 1997 (Almost 25 years) and the 1FZ which was introduced in 1993 and is still produced today, some 15 years later. So that's a definate testimont to the overall design. Another testimont is the fact that R motors, 1FZs and the 7M engines can all be blown at extreme pressures and make extreme amounts of power for their size with few internal modifications. That goes to show just how stout the designs are.

As far as what vehicle to buy, the prices for those LC80s that were shown in that ad are far too high, IMO. LC80 prices are dropping like a rock thanks to gas prices and lack of desirability by most SUV buyers, because of their age. So, you should be able to find a good LC80 for at or under $10K. If you go the LC80 route, I would concentrate on the 1993-1997 models so you can get the better engine and better fuel economy. The 3FE in the 1991-1992 models does appear to not have the headgasket issues, but fuel mileage, power and overall value is significantly less.

I personally would recommend a 4Runner since overall economy will be better in light of higher fuel prices, but if fuel prices and gas mileage are not as much of a concern, I can't think of a better vehicle for your friend, for what she wants to do with it, than a nice stock FZJ80 Land Cruiser. The only reason I don't mention the 100 series, is just because we're talking more money and from you last post, it sounded like cost was a concern.

If money is less of a cocern, you probably couldn't go wrong with a good 2000+ UZJ100. The 98-99 models have a few issues, but are cheaper and they might be an alternative.
 
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