Increasing Power Wagon payload

[billiebob]

Going over GVWR is, on the other hand, risking longterm damage to your powertrain and chassis components.

And, while DOT might never pull you over and scale your truck, if you are involved in a fatal accident they will be looking for any violation which may have contributed to the accident, you won't want to be over weight. That sticker on the door is gospel and cannot be changed.

 

[LimaMikeMike]

Ok so I’m not so done lol

Up here in Alberta you can do pretty much what ever you want, you won’t get pulled over unless you’re grossly unsafe, that interpretation is up to the officer.

In BC where we go sledding it’s a different story, too many guys with 1/2 tons with sled decks and a pair of mtn sleds, the mermaids (cvnts with scales) are known to scale you and if they feel you’re unsafe they will pull you off the road right where you stand. I was relatively safe with my PW because of the 2500 badges but they pick on 1/2 tons a lot and for good reason.

Friend of mine rolled his Tundra this year on a logging road in BC, two sleds and a deck, probably overweight, won’t admit it fully but he said there was some control issues. Bought an other Tundra to do it over again ?.

The problem I think with the PW is when it was reintroduced in 05 it had a 8510 GVWR but the truck was lighter so it had an respectable 2500lb payload, still useful right?

As the body style changed the PW got heavier but Ram didn’t change the 8510 GVWR. 14+ PW are heavy (mine was 7300lbs) they realistically have a laughable 1/2 ton or less payload (some Tacos sticker more!). Why didn’t FCA change the GVWR? In my opinion certification may have something to do with it but that’s speculation, it can certainly handle more with the same full float axles and similar running gear as my current 3500, soft spring rates excluded.

The 19 PW are slightly lighter, so it picked up some payload but not enough to make much of a difference. I’d like to see a GVWR change to 9.2k or 9.5k. This would reflect what it’s realistically capable of.

Sorry for being long winded, I generally don’t post much and prefer to listen to what others say. This is a subject that I have a lot experience with as I’ve had several truck campers and Dodge/Ram trucks including a 15 PW.

 

[RoyJ]

Actually there is a ton of difference between the two.

Assuming you get 37" tires which are rated approximately the same as the OEM ones and assuming you regear to get the RPM's back to stock configuration, you can still tow and haul the OEM ratings without risking any damage to the drivetrain. So no, OEM ratings don't become "void" simply by increasing the tire size....granted a lot of fools increase tire size without concnern for weight ratings or engine RPM's, but there is a right way to do those types of modifications.

Going over GVWR is, on the other hand, risking longterm damage to your powertrain and chassis components.

Yes, EVERY rating is void.

• center of gravity is increased, suspension calibration, including stability control, is compromised. OEM not liable if you lose control
• pedestrian protection is no longer guaranteed (same goes for offroad bumpers - you can be sued if you kill / injure a pedestrian)
• Increased lateral load on wheel bearings - axle rating is void
• Increased torsion stress on axle shaft, drive shaft. Metal fatigue limits no longer guarantted
• Engine loading (throttle %) vs gear vs rpm calibration of drivetrain no longer valid
• increased load on brake loading. Brake pad friction no longer sufficient. OEM brake fade testing results no longer valid

I can go on for pages - there's MUCH more than is a tire capable of handling the load.

My point is, if you get the book thrown at you, you better be fully stock. So we should think twice before throwing the book at others for going over GVWR.

 

[RoyJ]

GVWR, GVAR, GCWR are legal figures of merit. If you are in an accident with injuries or fatalities you don't get bonus points for by adding springs, tires with higher load ratings, et. al. The court will go by the number on the door pillar. You can be found liable for doing things that reduce the trucks safety.

That wasn't my point, which was: even if you stay below your sticker, the moment you put on the slightest modification you can be held liable in a serious enough accident. All they have to do is hire an OEM engineer as an expert witness. See my post above.

Now, I've never seen it happen. I could be wrong, but I've also never seen anyone sued going over GVW, unless it's gross negligence.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

Ok so I’m not so done lol

The problem I think with the PW is when it was reintroduced in 05 it had a 8510 GVWR but the truck was lighter so it had an respectable 2500lb payload, still useful right?

...it can certainly handle more with the same full float axles and similar running gear as my current 3500, soft spring rates excluded.

...I’d like to see a GVWR change to 9.2k or 9.5k. This would reflect what it’s realistically capable of.

I thought you were done, so I did not pick on your prior posts. In this most recent post, you have effectively made my points for me, so thank you. OP, in his first post, did not specify what year PW he was considering, did not note a preference for leaf-sprung vs coil-sprung PWs, did not specify whether his 2K camper was wet or dry, etc. He asked about increasing the payload on a PW. The simple answer is that yes, you can increase the effective payload (not the sticker number but the real payload). The PW is a 2500, and the only significant physical limiting factor is the springs. Change the springs and it is a gas 2500 with accessories, and can do whatever any other gas 2500 can do. It's not a 3500, but he did not ask about 3500s. For the record, my PW is a 2005, which is the best and most capable of the modern PWs. Not the fastest, not the biggest, not the most comfortable, but the most capable. The new ones are nice, but mine does what I need it to do.

 

[Dalko43]

Yes, EVERY rating is void.

Well firstly, I don't know what you mean by "void." Do you mean that the warranty covering said items is void? If so, that isn't necessarily the case.
Or do you mean that the design parameters associated with said items are void? Well certainly your vehicle's performance and crash characteristics are altered when you modify it, but let's stop pretending that the going over a vehicle's GVWR is the same as throwing on a 1" lift and a +1 tire size.

• center of gravity is increased, suspension calibration, including stability control, is compromised. OEM not liable if you lose control
• pedestrian protection is no longer guaranteed (same goes for offroad bumpers - you can be sued if you kill / injure a pedestrian)
• Increased lateral load on wheel bearings - axle rating is void
• Increased torsion stress on axle shaft, drive shaft. Metal fatigue limits no longer guarantted
• Engine loading (throttle %) vs gear vs rpm calibration of drivetrain no longer valid
• increased load on brake loading. Brake pad friction no longer sufficient. OEM brake fade testing results no longer valid

Lifting your vehicle affects COG. With that said the PW, and other offroad versions of common trucks/4x4's have lifts as they come from the factory. It stands to reason that if you keep your lift height similar, you shouldn't see much in the way of adverse effects. Obviously there is a a point beyond which that no longer holds true....no one will argue that a 6" long travel Tundra or F-150 will handle even remotely similar to a stock truck.

Pedestrian safety and lawsuits are far more influenced by bad (and drunk) driving than by having a few pieces of armor on your vehicle. I've yet to hear of anyone being sued for having a front bumper on their vehicle...I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but in the grand scheme of things, your life choices (how and when you drive) are far more likely to get you into trouble than your accessory choices. If you're driving fast enough (and carelessly enough) to kill a pedestrian, the lack or presence of aftermarket modifications (bumpers, ride height) is unlikely to be the deciding factor in your culpability. Either you know how to drive responsibly or you don't.

Engine load vs gearing can be resolved by re-gearing when going up in tire size.

As for additional stresses on wheel bearings, brakes and other drivetrain components, going over GVWR will have a far more substantial and more immediate impact on those components than will adding 1-2" of ride height or going up a tire size or two.

Yes, every modification will have some sort of impact on the vehicle's engineering, but not all impacts will be equal.

 

[RoyJ]

Well firstly, I don't know what you mean by "void." Do you mean that the warranty covering said items is void? If so, that isn't necessarily the case.
Or do you mean that the design parameters associated with said items are void? Well certainly your vehicle's performance and crash characteristics are altered when you modify it, but let's stop pretending that the going over a vehicle's GVWR is the same as throwing on a 1" lift and a +1 tire size.

Both warranty and design parameters are void. Same happens when GVW is exceed.

The cut-off is not black and white. Going over your GVW by 5000 lbs or 5 oz are both "going over", where do you draw the line? A 1" lift / 1" tire size increase, vs 12" long travel suspension on a JK with 44" tires are both "modified". Is exceeding the GVW by 50 lbs safer, or a Jeep on 44s but under GVW safer?

Lifting your vehicle affects COG. With that said the PW, and other offroad versions of common trucks/4x4's have lifts as they come from the factory. It stands to reason that if you keep your lift height similar, you shouldn't see much in the way of adverse effects.

By the same reasoning - a factory 2500 is a PW with stiffer springs. But in both cases, when the end user modify it, it doesn't change the GVW sticker. Likewise, a "factory lifted" PW is backed up by OEM testing / certification, a user lifted 2500 does not.

Pedestrian safety and lawsuits are far more influenced by bad (and drunk) driving than by having a few pieces of armor on your vehicle. I've yet to hear of anyone being sued for having a front bumper on their vehicle...I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but in the grand scheme of things, your life choices (how and when you drive) are far more likely to get you into trouble than your accessory choices. If you're driving fast enough (and carelessly enough) to kill a pedestrian, the lack or presence of aftermarket modifications (bumpers, ride height) is unlikely to be the deciding factor in your culpability. Either you know how to drive responsibly or you don't.

I'm not saying what's safe. I'm pointing out if you run a aftermarket bumper, and you hit a pedestrian, the lawyer could easily claim you've caused more harm than OEM bumper / hood with pedestrian impact crumple zones.

No different than if you exceed GVW by 50lbs. We know it's safe, but a lawyer can blame you, right?

Engine load vs gearing can be resolved by re-gearing when going up in tire size.

Again, absolutely true from a engineering point - but we just said user modifications don't count, only OEM mods back up / retain the door certification.

As for additional stresses on wheel bearings, brakes and other drivetrain components, going over GVWR will have a far more substantial and more immediate impact on those components than will adding 1-2" of ride height or going up a tire size or two.

So back to the PW - we know the AAM 9.5" / 11.5" combo is used in a 3500 dually with up to 14,000 lbs GVW. So if I gross 9500 lbs in a PW (technically 1000 lbs over weight), how are the bearings experiencing more stress than a dually @ 9500 lbs GVW?

I hope I make my point clear - if the argument is "no matter what mods you do you can't change sticker GVW". Then the counter argument holds - no matter what mods you do, and what counter-mods you do to regain OEM performance, your sticker is technically void.

Or, we can be reasonable and say: the court has to PROVE your mods / overloading caused the accident for the accusation to hold. Which is actually how motor vehicle accident cases work.

 

[LimaMikeMike]

Ok so I’m not so done lol

The problem I think with the PW is when it was reintroduced in 05 it had a 8510 GVWR but the truck was lighter so it had an respectable 2500lb payload, still useful right?

...it can certainly handle more with the same full float axles and similar running gear as my current 3500, soft spring rates excluded.

...I’d like to see a GVWR change to 9.2k or 9.5k. This would reflect what it’s realistically capable of.

I thought you were done, so I did not pick on your prior posts. In this most recent post, you have effectively made my points for me, so thank you. OP, in his first post, did not specify what year PW he was considering, did not note a preference for leaf-sprung vs coil-sprung PWs, did not specify whether his 2K camper was wet or dry, etc. He asked about increasing the payload on a PW. The simple answer is that yes, you can increase the effective payload (not the sticker number but the real payload). The PW is a 2500, and the only significant physical limiting factor is the springs. Change the springs and it is a gas 2500 with accessories, and can do whatever any other gas 2500 can do. It's not a 3500, but he did not ask about 3500s. For the record, my PW is a 2005, which is the best and most capable of the modern PWs. Not the fastest, not the biggest, not the most comfortable, but the most capable. The new ones are nice, but mine does what I need it to do.

In post #1 the OP states that his camper is 2K dry.

Doesn’t matter if it’s leaf or coil, it’s still too much for a PW, as in too far over GVWR. Changing springs doesn’t change GVWR. Adding Bags doesn’t change GVWR. Heck, Ram even says no campers in a PW.

It’s a capable vehicle with a ************ payload rating. Ducky, you can drive your PW down the road overloaded, with all the mods you put into it to make it drive to your satisfaction, have at it. You have your opinion I have mine.

Anyway this thread is devolving into an argue fest.

 

[Dalko43]

Both warranty and design parameters are void. Same happens when GVW is exceed.

The cut-off is not black and white. Going over your GVW by 5000 lbs or 5 oz are both "going over", where do you draw the line? A 1" lift / 1" tire size increase, vs 12" long travel suspension on a JK with 44" tires are both "modified". Is exceeding the GVW by 50 lbs safer, or a Jeep on 44s but under GVW safer?



By the same reasoning - a factory 2500 is a PW with stiffer springs. But in both cases, when the end user modify it, it doesn't change the GVW sticker. Likewise, a "factory lifted" PW is backed up by OEM testing / certification, a user lifted 2500 does not.



I'm not saying what's safe. I'm pointing out if you run a aftermarket bumper, and you hit a pedestrian, the lawyer could easily claim you've caused more harm than OEM bumper / hood with pedestrian impact crumple zones.

No different than if you exceed GVW by 50lbs. We know it's safe, but a lawyer can blame you, right?



Again, absolutely true from a engineering point - but we just said user modifications don't count, only OEM mods back up / retain the door certification.



So back to the PW - we know the AAM 9.5" / 11.5" combo is used in a 3500 dually with up to 14,000 lbs GVW. So if I gross 9500 lbs in a PW (technically 1000 lbs over weight), how are the bearings experiencing more stress than a dually @ 9500 lbs GVW?

I hope I make my point clear - if the argument is "no matter what mods you do you can't change sticker GVW". Then the counter argument holds - no matter what mods you do, and what counter-mods you do to regain OEM performance, your sticker is technically void.

Or, we can be reasonable and say: the court has to PROVE your mods / overloading caused the accident for the accusation to hold. Which is actually how motor vehicle accident cases work.

Again, I'll point out that while all modifications affect OEM performance to some degree, that degree isn't the same across the board.

Lifting your vehicle 1-2" does not have the same impact as does going over GVWR by 300-500lbs (which many people are guilty of in the offroad community).

 

[Ducky's Dad]

Doesn’t matter if it’s leaf or coil, it’s still too much for a PW, as in too far over GVWR.

OP did not ask about changing GVWR. That is just a number on a sticker. He did ask about increasing payload, which is the actual ability of the truck to handle weight. GVWR and payload are two different things. You can increase payload, even if you don't change the number on the sticker.

 

[Buliwyf]

Front locker, articulink radius arms and disconnecting swaybars are not easily, or cheaply, bought and installed on the base Ford and Ram 3/4 tons. Power Wagon is a good buy for what it offers.

Front locker is cheap and easy, maybe $1200 while you sip coffee from a cup for 3 hours. Radius arms are $1000-2000 and pretty much available with any decent suspension kit. You can build a stock truck way beyond the capability of a stock pw, have a decent GVWR sticker, and maybe even for the same price. Just takes a bit more skill, to do right.

Swaybar? Who cares. Sometimes I'll zip off one end, with an electric impact, sometimes I don't. Big deal. Maybe it's a huge perk if someone is 100# overweight and can't roll under the truck.

With a camper on my back, I'm not disco-ing my sway bars anyways. And if I'm wheeling nearly empty, I can disco them and leave them disco'd on the street as well. It's not like you need do play with them every day. Cool feature? Sure, but that button isn't worth $10,000!

It's easier to harass good law abiding people with overweight trucks, than it is to go fight real crime. Beware the sticker police.

 

[Dalko43]

Front locker is cheap and easy, maybe $1200 while you sip coffee from a cup for 3 hours. Radius arms are $1000-2000 and pretty much available with any decent suspension kit. You can build a stock truck way beyond the capability of a stock pw, have a decent GVWR sticker, and maybe even for the same price. Just takes a bit more skill, to do right.

Swaybar? Who cares. Sometimes I'll zip off one end, with an electric impact, sometimes I don't. Big deal. Maybe it's a huge perk if someone is 100# overweight and can't roll under the truck.

With a camper on my back, I'm not disco-ing my sway bars anyways. And if I'm wheeling nearly empty, I can disco them and leave them disco'd on the street as well. It's not like you need do play with them every day. Cool feature? Sure, but that button isn't worth $10,000!

It's easier to harass good law abiding people with overweight trucks, than it is to go fight real crime. Beware the sticker police.

$1200 for the locker alone. You also need to account for all the labor (wiring, air lines and compressor depending upon the variant) and there is some drilling into the axle housing....that's neither cheap nor easy.

I know there are aftermarket swaybars and suspension components that can easily rival what the PW offers from the factory...but I very much doubt that most aftermarket companies put the same effort into engineering for those components.

No one is arguing that you can't build a PW equivalent via the aftermarket....but there is something to be said for the peace of mind that comes with OEM engineering and warranty.

 

[Buliwyf]

Actually, I'd argue that they do. At least some aftermarket parts companies do. When the PW locker just flashes a fault light at you when you need it.....

Doing it all custom, gives you a chance to do a better job than the engineers are allowed to. The PW just isn't meant for campers at all. In this case, I'd only recommend building custom.

I run an autolocker up front. I prefer that over selectable. $1200 installed. It doesn't get expensive unless you regear at the same time. Then you need a master axle guy.

 

[DirtRoads]

Sure, but that button isn't worth $10,000!

My PW was about $3-4k (if that much) over a similarly optioned/mileage 2500 with 37s and sliders. I'm going to use it to tow an FJ62 on a 20' car hauler down the interstate tomorrow for several hours with many heavy items loaded into the bed of the truck. Look for me on the news.

 

[Dalko43]

Actually, I'd argue that they do. At least some aftermarket parts companies do. When the PW locker just flashes a fault light at you when you need it.....

Doing it all custom, gives you a chance to do a better job than the engineers are allowed to. The PW just isn't meant for campers at all. In this case, I'd only recommend building custom.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree....OEM engineers, generally-speaking, do a far better and more thorough job of designing and building components that will last for the longterm as compared to aftermarket shops.

That and in the particular case of adding lockers, drilling into the axle housing and adding electric wiring or air lines is no small feat....many "professional" shops have screwed that type of job up which has lead to trail-side break-down's.