INEOS Grenadier

[CFMGarage]

I'm a bit confused, but coming from pickup trucks, where you can get a volume trim 4 seater with power windows and locks and a solid rear axle and locker, outside of Covid pricing for 40k CAD, how an 80k SUV offers something commercially unless it's twice as reliable.

It looks good and having switches and dials instead of touch screens and similar is something I like. Being made specifically to be durable and long lasting is also nice. That price tag doesn't seem at all competitive to me.

I think of it like Tesla, they didn't start with a $40K Model 3. They did get there though. I have higher hopes for this SUV as Tesla just started with an electric version of a 90's dodge intrepid.

I can already see a stripped down vinyl interior version of this Grenadier with a different engine choice being less expensive. Or a 2 seat model.

I hope, and I can only hope, they continue to push the goals of reliability, serviceability, and information access (manuals and diagrams) to allow model longevity and to fill a hole being left by some of these other manufacturers.

I'm still skeptical.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

A bit more feedback from a test drive here, overall it sounds pretty good. The video is 15 minutes so to summarize what they came up with:

- Very stable both on and off road
- Faster off the line than a tuned D3 with most of the torque coming under 2000 rpm (Diesel)
- The shifter handle is actually a ZF thing, not a BMW thing according to this guy.
- Lots of interior room - he mentioned his 6' 4" cameraperson had no trouble in the backseat of the commercial version which has less backseat room than the non-commercial version.

 

[Todd780]

I am curious as to what kind of commercial business would use this instead of a pick up truck with a canopy or a box van?

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I am curious as to what kind of commercial business would use this instead of a pick up truck with a canopy or a box van?

Great question. My opinion is not very many -- but since they only need to sell 25,000-30,000 units, "not very many" is probably OK. I don't think tradesmen will be drawn to this. In rural areas they are married to HD pickups; in the cities/urban areas they are already using vans.

But, folks with a technical background who do remote work -- surveyors, engineering techs, wastewater techs, wildlife officers, etc. -- basically anyone who uses sensitive equipment in remote areas -- will be well served by the Grenadier I think. Trucks are hard to keep dust-free in the tub area, which isn't ideal for any sensitive equipment whereas the Gren doesn't have that problem. There are also a lot of people in this segment that currently use mid-sized trucks with either full tub replacements or caps on them, but those dramatically impair the payload ratings of those trucks whereas the Grenadier will best even full-sized pickups fairly easily in that regard, so I think it could win a few of those over. The question is whether they will hit that magic number of 25-30k.

My instinct on this is that they can, but the key thing will be for Ineos to align themselves accordingly -- I heard rumour they were not pursuing fleet sales, but I think that's a mistake. If the Grenadier can prove itself with the likes of the Halo Trust, the UN, mining companies, etc. the lifestyle crowd will follow. The reverse is almost never true. Two examples -- the Toyota Tacoma is an incredibly good truck in a million different ways, but it's primarily aligned as a "lifestyle truck" and so they are rare (though not unheard of) to see them in commercial/industrial/professional environments. On the other hand, the Unimog was never intended to be an enthusiasts vehicle (as far as I know), but because it's proven itself all over the world in tough, professional/commercial/industrial environments, a lot of enthusiasts buy them.

I'm pretty confident (95%+) that I will be putting down an order for one day 1. I have a few outstanding questions to know for sure if this is the right rig for us, but those questions are not likely to be deal breakers unless they all go the wrong way on me. So, that means there only needs to be 24,999 technicians out there for them to hit their sales goal

 

[Highlander]

The US, Canada and Australia are the truck countries.
The UK is kinda there too, but still many well preserved Defenders available.
The continental Europe is kind of a mix beg. The AWd Vans are very popular in agriculture, service and recreation as well.
Russia loves utilitarian SUVs but they have their own car industry which servers that market (see GAZ).

Not sure about the Latin America and Asia.

I want to believe their marketing department has been aware of these data.
They will have do something different to compete with the trucks.

 

[utherjorge]

They will have do something different to compete with the trucks.

One thing they could do is compete on price. However...that remains to be seen if they'll give it a go.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

They will have do something different to compete with the trucks.

Agreed with everything you wrote - I'm hopeful that the "something different" is in the handling/performance, which most folks are saying is very good or excellent based on the test drives. I own a full-size and a mid-size truck and while I love the full size for highways, I really dislike it around town (and I live in a very truck-friendly place so the parking lots and back alleys are all "truck sized" -- I can't imagine owning a truck like this in Europe) because it's just not very nimble. The same applies off-road -- they are just to bloated for my tastes to be handy and maneuverable in technical terrain for my preferences. But the mid-sized truck is fantastic at handling. Based on the dimensions, I'm hopeful the Grenadier will handle more like a mid-sized truck -- that kind of handling with full sized payload makes for a very compelling option and might just be the "something different" that brings people in.

 

[Highlander]

Yes, big trucks are somewhat impractical in some part of the world.
Even in New England there are places you can't drive an F-250.
Surprisingly there are many American Trucks in the western Europe. I have seen a lot of F-150 and RAM1500. I even saw a few F-250 in the Netherlands.
But when it come to the expedition rigs the Defenders, TLC80 or 105 and G-wagons are the dominant brands you would see used.
This makes me think the Grenadier will see a relatively good success in the Continental Europe.

The challenge is the US and Australia and I am very curious how they are going to market the Grenadier here and make it compatible against well established trucks here.
You can buy a strip down F-150 with a locker for $40K. Sometimes even less.
There is also a Jeep and Toyota cult.

Since they are teaming up with BMW, maybe eventually they want to assumable it here? at one of those US based factories and make it a bit affordable.
On the other hand if their goal is to sell around 20,000 unit then I guess they don't have to worry about it.

P.s. I went to a Mercedes dealership the other day and a naked cargo 4x4 sprinter was around $65,000. It was only one on the lot.
If they can bamboozle the Millennials into buying those vans, and apparently they do, I guess the Grenadier has not much to be concerned with.

 

[beanmachine314]

P.s. I went to a Mercedes dealership the other day and a naked cargo 4x4 sprinter was around $65,000. It was only one on the lot.
If they can bamboozle the Millennials into buying those vans, and apparently they do, I guess the Grenadier has not much to be concerned with.

And for $65k, you get 1500lbs more payload in a Sprinter, not to mention standing room inside. One more tick against the Grenadier.

 

[utherjorge]

And for $65k, you get 1500lbs more payload in a Sprinter, not to mention standing room inside. One more tick against the Grenadier.

I don't see anyone cross-shopping these.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

And for $65k, you get 1500lbs more payload in a Sprinter, not to mention standing room inside. One more tick against the Grenadier.

I don't see anyone cross-shopping these.

It's an interesting idea -- in terms of "what can they do", they are similar in some ways (big metal boxes that can carry lots). But, I can't see them poaching too many of each other's customers. In the Overland space, the Sprinter represents a great solution for live-in setups for singles or couples who want off-road capability "just in case", but where off-road is not the primary focus of their adventures. The Grenadier represents off road as the main focus, and is very much a "live-around" vehicle (save for the possibility of roof conversions, but even then "live in" on the Gren will be a lot different from "live in" with the Sprinter). In the commercial space, the 2WD sprinters dominate, and so the 4x4 Ineos is likely not going to appeal to the same commercial buyer as the sprinter.

In other news, I previously made mention of Ineo's rumoured intention around Fleet Sales. That rumour I think came from a YouTube video of someone who got a bit of a walk around of the Grenadier, but according to the head of After Sales at Ineos, they are indeed going to going after fleets:

They’re spinning out the actual terms and exact prices which will be charged for the Grenadier, but we are expecting some kind of announcement within six weeks. Steve Graham, head of aftersales for the company, says his top-five extras will be: tow bars; extra lamps; a winch; a roof rack; and side steps.

Click image to enlarge
Like all the sales and marketing staff, he’s anxious that the Grenadier earns its place in people’s hearts and on the buying list of fleet buyers. That quiet modesty runs right through the company, but Graham is pleased with the reception he’s had so far.

Paywall, but here's the link to the article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/features/...adictions/

 

[Herbie]

I am curious as to what kind of commercial business would use this instead of a pick up truck with a canopy or a box van?

From a lot of the reporting, (including the Overland Journal podcast), it seems the first target market is NGOs in Africa, etc. - a pick-up is a non-starter in many of those areas for multiple reasons (dust, security, overall size).

Strictly speaking, the US domestic market (and US truck customers in particular), aren't where they're looking to make sales.

 

[roving1]

And for $65k, you get 1500lbs more payload in a Sprinter, not to mention standing room inside. One more tick against the Grenadier.

The low range in a Sprinter is a complete joke though. It's 1.4 something to 1. Probably because any more torque input would explode the drivetrain. To me Sprinters are robust cargo carrying Subarus with half ass low range. Which fill a niche but are not even as capable as an Astro Van with a real transfer case thrown in it.

 

[utherjorge]

Paywall, but here's the link to the article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/features/...adictions/

So, I paid for the scrip to read that article. Some takeaways:

1. They're doing gas BMW engines, too. Which one? I missed that. The article said "with the turbo petrol equivalent delivering 283bhp and 332lb ft, although that could change in production." I don't know if that narrows it down.

2. Said the company spox, "We’re now getting enquiries from people outside of those in the know, who’ve said that they also want to be in the know,” he says, “but the issue is legacy and fleet sales will come when the professional buyers see track record and figures for total cost of ownership."

Annnnnnd that's all I got for my free registration. The claim is "more" within 6 weeks. So, let's see. That'll only cost me a dollar, so here's to hoping.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

So, I paid for the scrip to read that article. Some takeaways:

1. They're doing gas BMW engines, too. Which one? I missed that. The article said "with the turbo petrol equivalent delivering 283bhp and 332lb ft, although that could change in production." I don't know if that narrows it down.

From what I've read elsewhere, they are using the BMW B57 (Diesel) and the BMW B58 (Petrol). Both straight 6 configuration. From what I understand, while these are BMW motors, they are being "De-BMW-ified" a bit -- for instance, I hear that the oil pan has a normal bolt hole plug in it, which other vehicles with the B57/58 do not have, necessitating a vacuum pump to change the oil. This is just a rumour from another internet board, not first hand knowledge, but it fits with the Ineos approach and gives me confidence that while the engines might be BMW, they are likely still going to be quite fit for purpose. I also understand they didn't have much choice in the matter, as BMW were the only major engine manufacturer to guarantee production for 10 years (everyone else would only guarantee 5 years, apparently). Again, internet rumour, may not be fact, but it seems legit enough to me.

2. Said the company spox, "We’re now getting enquiries from people outside of those in the know, who’ve said that they also want to be in the know,” he says, “but the issue is legacy and fleet sales will come when the professional buyers see track record and figures for total cost of ownership."

Annnnnnd that's all I got for my free registration. The claim is "more" within 6 weeks. So, let's see. That'll only cost me a dollar, so here's to hoping.

That makes sense - it looks good so far, but commercial buyers want something proven save for a few adventurous types; they don't want to drop millions on a fleet purchase and have to spend months and dollars figuring out all the kinks from a year 1 model vehicle.