INEOS Grenadier

[Paddler Ed]

The RAM2500 in Europe is a truck... a legitimate truck that at 10,000lbs (4535kg) needs a C1 (small truck) Licence to drive (additional driving test, theory, medical) in Europe and the UK, and is downplated to 4495kg in Australia to avoid the same.

But the engine is also of a size that is normally associated with a performance or a luxury car (the Bentley/RR 6.75 springs to mind) for Joe Public - but is a normal size for a truck in the <7500kg bracket. Even Australia, that size has gone the way of the dodo, with only the Chrysler 300C and possibly some Mercedes having that sort of size (outside of the Ford/RAM/GM American imports).

Outside of the US, there are very places now where displacement is the king in terms of engine design, and in fact Ineos have possibly taken too long to get to market and have missed the opportunity for an ICE only product range. It'll be interesting to see how they go in the UK and Europe as they have no way of offsetting their emissions unless they sell the Grenadier as a commercial vehicle (see Suzuki with the Jimny, withdrawn from sale as a 4 seater and returned as a 2 seater commercial.... because that's outside of the fleet emissions total)

 

[nickw]

The RAM2500 in Europe is a truck... a legitimate truck that at 10,000lbs (4535kg) needs a C1 (small truck) Licence to drive (additional driving test, theory, medical) in Europe and the UK, and is downplated to 4495kg in Australia to avoid the same.

But the engine is also of a size that is normally associated with a performance or a luxury car (the Bentley/RR 6.75 springs to mind) for Joe Public - but is a normal size for a truck in the <7500kg bracket. Even Australia, that size has gone the way of the dodo, with only the Chrysler 300C and possibly some Mercedes having that sort of size (outside of the Ford/RAM/GM American imports).

Outside of the US, there are very places now where displacement is the king in terms of engine design, and in fact Ineos have possibly taken too long to get to market and have missed the opportunity for an ICE only product range. It'll be interesting to see how they go in the UK and Europe as they have no way of offsetting their emissions unless they sell the Grenadier as a commercial vehicle (see Suzuki with the Jimny, withdrawn from sale as a 4 seater and returned as a 2 seater commercial.... because that's outside of the fleet emissions total)

For sure, you are trading complexity (turbos) for displacement, it's something Toyota did/has done forever, well up until this past year with their twin turbo in the Tundar/LC. The old cruisers and frankly even the 4runners/Tacomas, for their size, were relatively high displacement, average power engines....4.0L, 4.5L, 4.7L and 5.7L. The 5.7L @ 380hp / 400 ftlbs which they just got rid of is not far off the 6.6L above....in a moderately sized SUV. Unlike the B58, the 6.6L is designed for heavy use, long term durability and relative ease of maintenance.

 

[greg.potter]

So far I have like what I have seen. I had a chance to crawl around under a prototype in Calgary last summer (?). In general I liked what I saw. I also think the midship electronics is a great idea - keeps them away from the heat of the engine bay and any water that finds its way into the engine bay.

 

[NVLOC]

So far I have like what I have seen. I had a chance to crawl around under a prototype in Calgary last summer (?). In general I liked what I saw. I also think the midship electronics is a great idea - keeps them away from the heat of the engine bay and any water that finds its way into the engine bay.

Oh absolutely: it's because of the details that have already been advertised and the promise the Grenadier shows as a result for this application, that the engine questions are being asked.

 

[TCM]

I saw the Grenadier prototype in Denver in February 2022. The axles, suspension links, bracketry and prop shafts are, base on visual inspection only, equivalent to a full size heavy duty truck. They make the same parts in the Jeep Wrangler JL look undersized and not fit for purpose. Unfortunately we were not allowed to look under the hood. If nothing else I was curious to see how much room there is in the engine compartment.

 

[nickw]

I saw the Grenadier prototype in Denver in February 2022. The axles, suspension links, bracketry and prop shafts are, base on visual inspection only, equivalent to a full size heavy duty truck. They make the same parts in the Jeep Wrangler JL look undersized and not fit for purpose. Unfortunately we were not allowed to look under the hood. If nothing else I was curious to see how much room there is in the engine compartment.

I'd have a hard time believing the axles are the size of a full size pickup - even the Toyota 70 series have much smaller axles than full size rigs and nobody upgrades those. It would be completely overkill to have 1-T axles in a rig this size. Gotta remember everything needs to play and work as a system, 1-T axles with a modest transmission and 1/4-T transfer case puts a lot of strain and things that can't be easily fixed. I think the general line of thinking is treat u-joints and axles as fuses vs all the stuff upstream.....but I am not an automotive engineer.

 

[TCM]

I'd have a hard time believing the axles are the size of a full size pickup - even the Toyota 70 series have much smaller axles than full size rigs and nobody upgrades those. It would be completely overkill to have 1-T axles in a rig this size. Gotta remember everything needs to play and work as a system, 1-T axles with a modest transmission and 1/4-T transfer case puts a lot of strain and things that can't be easily fixed. I think the general line of thinking is treat u-joints and axles as fuses vs all the stuff upstream.....but I am not an automotive engineer.

I did say based on visual inspection alone. Are they true 1 ton axles not likely. Are they much larger in size than those used in the Wrangler & Gladiator undoubtedly. And based on the 70 Series in I have seen in person the axle diameters are also much larger than those of the 70 Series. Size alone is not a measure of capacity but it is a direct contribution.

 

[Tudor Tanase]

I look at this vehicle and see zero history of building anything ever. INEOS is a massive chemical company. 5 years ago thier 70 year old billionaire owner decided to build a 4x4. He also went sailing in Americas Cup with a $110M budget, bought a football team and entered Formula One.

There is no dealership network, no parts warehousing, no marketing, warranty or service network.

EXACTLY. While I acknowledge others have the time and interest to write near 50 pages of posts about this "thing", I only opened the tread to see whether the "much awaited" 4wd is, finally, available for sale. No great surprise that it is not. Now if I can get someone to private message me when (or should I say IF???) that happens, that would be great. Until then this is all just a pipe dream, a marketing exercise or the longest product development ever - pick the one which fits.

 

[Dan Grec]

There is no dealership network, no parts warehousing, no marketing, warranty or service network.

They've made a deal with Bosch to have dealers, parts, service and warranty all over the world.

My take is they probably have one of the most global parts/service network after the 70 series LC and old Defender.

They're also doing really cool stuff like officially allowing you to do your own oil changes and maintenance while still maintaining the warranty.

Servicing Your Grenadier

We’re developing a network to service and repair your Grenadier 4X4 – in all four corners of the world. Learn more about servicing your Grenadier.

ineosgrenadier.com

-Dan

 

[TCM]

No need for a PM or to wait. Australians can (and have done so I understand) order one already.

Servicing Your Grenadier

We’re developing a network to service and repair your Grenadier 4X4 – in all four corners of the world. Learn more about servicing your Grenadier.

ineosgrenadier.com

Check out the Ineos grenadier site for Au.

Buyers in Europe are also able to place official orders to their specification with their dealer of choice. The US is simply going to be the last stop on the list. Not a bad thing. It lets the Aussies and Euro dogs sort out the initial teething issues.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I look at this vehicle and see zero history of building anything ever. INEOS is a massive chemical company. 5 years ago thier 70 year old billionaire owner decided to build a 4x4. He also went sailing in Americas Cup with a $110M budget, bought a football team and entered Formula One.

There is no dealership network, no parts warehousing, no marketing, warranty or service network.

You aren't wrong about this being a billionaire's hobby project, Billybob, but I think In addition to what @Dan Grec mentioned, the lack of having built any cars previously isn't really a huge issue with this vehicle I don't think - it's not like a bunch of chemical engineers at Ineos got a memo from Ratcliffe and put their normal jobs on hold while they sat down and tried to design a 4x4; Ineos partnered with some of the best experts in the industry to try to make a simple, robust 4x4 that will (hopefully) be greater than the sum of its' parts, and the parts they have chosen are amongst the best on the market. This is demonstrated on the fact that they aren't doing really anything in house -- seats are Recaro, because Recaro are seat experts. Engine is BMW, because BMW knows a lot about making decent engines. Axles are from a (I think) Portugese tractor company, because they know how to make stout, solid axles. The design and construction has been overseen by Magna Steyr, who clearly know how to make a rig given the popularity of the G-Wagen for both rich folks and militaries. So, I think odds are good this will be a solid rig.

EXACTLY. While I acknowledge others have the time and interest to write near 50 pages of posts about this "thing", I only opened the tread to see whether the "much awaited" 4wd is, finally, available for sale. No great surprise that it is not. Now if I can get someone to private message me when (or should I say IF???) that happens, that would be great. Until then this is all just a pipe dream, a marketing exercise or the longest product development ever - pick the one which fits.

As others have mentioned, it is available for sale now. Deliveries are starting in the next few months -- there's no "if" about it; Ineos is making and selling cars that are currently on trucks and boats en route to be delivered to customers. They are a bit behind the target schedule they announced pre-COVID, but not by much, and given how topsy-turvey the supply chain stuff has been for the past two years I'm actually surprised the delays aren't more significant. So the rig is definitely not a pipe dream - it's a real thing. I also don't think it's that long of a product development. Ratcliffe tried to buy the rights to the Defender around the time when JLR announced they would cease production (it stopped in 2016; I do not know when Jim tried to buy the designs). Ineos properly formally announced this adventure in 2017, and it's now 2022 - so around 6 years from announcing the concept to delivering the vehicle. That's pretty fast for a brand new company; even established manufacturers take longer than that to get a new model to market. For comparison, Rivian announced their stuff around the same time as Ineos, and they are on a similar timelines for delivery so I don't think it's fair to accuse this as being the longest product development ever. I think it seems that way because of how much public engagement the company has been doing -- most manufacturers hide their models till they are ready to go but Ineos pulled the curtain back on all the details (sometimes to their detriment) very early on.

Whether it's a marketing exercise or not - well the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and this particular pudding is about to be served to folks in Australia and Europe.

There are some social media images trickling out now over on TheIneosForum.com of some journalists getting to take the Grenadier through it's paces. Its looking to be good so far in what we've seen of delivery models in real-world conditions -- at least as good as we were promised in many ways, and maybe better in my admittedly biased and hopeful opinion. Journalist published reviews should be just around the corner, and then shortly after that it'll trickle out to the influencers and then everyday folks, so we're very close to having some solid real-world opinions on this vehicle.

 

[Johnboyy]

I would imagine a big part of the BMW appeal is the ease of having petrol and diesel options.

Given it's a customer engine arrangement the interface between the vehicle and the engine/box is likely to be less involved than it might be in an OEM application. This interface is going to be very similar on both engines, engines that are also physically quite similar.

That similarity will be reducing their development costs quite a bit you would think.

 

[zimm]

Keep in mind that Toyota also chose that same engine for their Supra. I am fairly certain that they did extensive testing before making that decision.

1) BMW basically designed the chassis.
2) Toyota didn't have modern 6 on the shelf, and marketing said the supra HAD to be a straight 6.

If you're taking a basic chassis, the tweaking it to suit your purposes because a ground up development for a low volume unit is too expensive to be profitable, why would you deviate and increase development costs?

It was this configuration or nothing. Loss leader sales isn't something Toyota ascribes to.

No one said the engine or drive train is crap, just oddly undesirable for the Ineos application compared to other choices.

 

[zimm]

I know they'd likely not be able to hit emissions and fuel mileage, etc, but something like the GM "connect and cruise" concept would have been cool, I wish there was somebody using these in an Ineos style mass produced rig here domestically....and no, the $250k Landcruisers do not count

Here is an engine/trans package, engineered as a system for HD pickups that a person can buy and drop in, LT8, 400 hp / 460 tq

I bet it gets very sim mileage, maybe 2-3 mpg less than the B58 in the Ineos. I know my full size Ram 2500 with 6.4 gas engine (comparable to engine below) gets 15-17 mpg, I'm guessing the Ineos is high teens best case scenario.

View attachment 760536

I wouldnt bank on the MPG being less. My stock 2.7t in my f150 has a combined 19mpg in hilly terrain/highway on street tires, and I thought I skimmed an article where EP was getting 22 with 35's in a Chevy.

 

[nickw]

I wouldnt bank on the MPG being less. My stock 2.7t in my f150 has a combined 19mpg in hilly terrain/highway on street tires, and I thought I skimmed an article where EP was getting 22 with 35's in a Chevy.

It's amazing with big V8's get these days, my 2001 Tacoma w/3.4 + manual gets the same HWY mileage as my 2021 2500 Ram w/6.4 + auto...basically exactly double the power in a straight axle rig that weighs 3000 lbs more.

My 2019 Ranger w/2.3L EB would get 19-22, but ~12 pulling a trailer.

My 2500 Ram gets ~12 pulling a trailer too.