Long Jeep.....chasing unicorns

[mbryson]

It's not my $, but I'd be interested to see you build with the alum. tub. Love your powertrain choices and am very interested to see what you end up with. I think you need an MB or GPW grille but then you have a total custom hood and fenders . It's likely easier to just do the TJ stuff like you're talking and spend time on the things that matter like powertrain and axles.

(just got back from Rubicon and all went well---felt like I overpacked a little, but I wouldn't want to go with anything less. In fact, I think I'd take a few more vehicle maint. items but nothing super serious---wished I had a about 12-15" more tub but still love my 101" wheelbase---it's what I'm used to---)

Oh, one last thing as I'm reviewing your build. I built my silver Jeep from a tub/frame. Literally nothing else. I would have LOVED to have a parts rig I could get stupid little stuff from rather than sourcing stuff from wherever I could find. Maybe you can find a donor Jeep of some kind for dumb stuff like strikers, latches, switches, knobs, etc.? However, you could end up with a pretty cool "buggy" style interior by just buying EXACTLY what you need?

 

[Metcalf]

It's not my $, but I'd be interested to see you build with the alum. tub. Love your powertrain choices and am very interested to see what you end up with. I think you need an MB or GPW grille but then you have a total custom hood and fenders . It's likely easier to just do the TJ stuff like you're talking and spend time on the things that matter like powertrain and axles.

(just got back from Rubicon and all went well---felt like I overpacked a little, but I wouldn't want to go with anything less. In fact, I think I'd take a few more vehicle maint. items but nothing super serious---wished I had a about 12-15" more tub but still love my 101" wheelbase---it's what I'm used to---)

I have thought about building my own aluminum tub a few times. I have also thought about just not using a 'jeep' shaped tub and staring with a blank(er) slate. I think weighing all the options buying the tub is probably neat a wash. Making one wouldn't be the most easy thing. There are some areas that would be a total pain in the rear. Another idea I had was to build a more tube frame tube car and then buy aftermarket replacement CJ7/YJ style panels and hang them on the tube frame structure. Then they could be replaced when damaged fairly cheaply and easily.
So many ideas, so little time.

I already have one with an MB grill I do think it would be much easier and cleaner to be able to use all off the shelf TJ parts for the grill, hood, fenders, and windshield. There are some REALLY nice aftermarket options now for highline type fenders.

This project will be a big balance of time invested vs money vs the final result. I'm trying to get the most I can for the least amount of time AND money invested overall. I could custom build more stuff but then the time commitment gets pretty severe. I could buy more stuff but then I would end up spending more, perhaps essentially buying the same thing twice and/or having to redo a lot of stuff.

I think around a 110" wheelbase will be good as long at the departure angle is decent and the belly is smooth. It is a compromise of sorts for more climbing ability and more interior space over maneuverability and overall size. The LJ length body is probably the shortest jeep body I could honestly sleep inside without having to totally rip out the passengers seat. I plan on minimizing the 'bulk' in the rear portion of the chassis as much as I can. With the LJ style framless top the rear portion of the top is very much minimized in volume. I think this will help on tighter more technical stuff a lot.

On the powertrain. It's just about value. I didn't want to have to spend a TON of money to get v8 power, an automatic transmisison, and D60 axles. The 5.3 GM v8 is probably the most common v8 engine in the country? The 6l80 has a nice deep 1st gear and a very tall 6th gear. With the right deep axle gears, probably 6.17's, this should get me the gearing I want without having to spend $2500 or so on an Atlas transfer case. Even with the lame 2:1 low range of the NP205 I will have about a 50:1 low range and the ability to front dig in tighter technical stuff. With the wide gearing of the 6L80 I should also be able to run faster happy trail speeds inbetween hard sections of trail. I think a lot of people have fallen into the trap where they think the lowest possible gearing is best with automatics. At some point, usually about 55:1-65:1, I think automatic transmissions start to return diminishing returns. Most automatics can't start themselves in 2nd or 3rd gear in low range so you have these situations where the vehicle can't generate enough wheel speed or momentum quick enough when a little bump is needed. Also, you end up having a VERY short max speed in low range. This creates a situation where you are doing the high-low shuffle on the trail a lot of the time and/or probably overheating your automatic transmission by running mild to medium trails......

Anyways.....blah blah blah

 

[mbryson]

Odd that I've thought multiple times about the "buggy" with skins option. I dig my MB grille (and yours as well---I always wonder what stories it could tell---likely boring stuff about being a supply dock gopher but still....). Love your powertrain ideas and I agree 100% on the engine/trans and tub sourcing. I'm not a big 205 fan, but like it A LOT in your proposed application. You've thought through the size and weight issues that case presents. Sourcing a 27 spline (assuming the 6l80 is 27?---maybe it's 32?) 205 could be interesting but not impossible. I might just go to an Atlas but then you're spending $ again as you mention. The 6 speed trans is a really cool option and should work with the 205 2:1 like you're thinking? You're making me want to repower my REALLY tired TBI 350/700 with your 5.3/6L80 idea...not going to do it, but it sounds like something to think about if I build another rig (JKU is getting "built" as a go anywhere type rig while the current rig can take most any trail and is more versatile than I'll give it credit for. It's just not awesome on the road but you've proved you can drive anything anywhere with some patience and planning)

I think you'll be time ahead with the alum. tub as you mention. Love the frame idea and the freedom that gives you for powertrain, materials and crossmember placement. The only thing you're stuck with is the brackets for the tub. The rest is flexible and you can make it work, package and perform like you intend it to.

You're right on with the wheelspeed thing. I have a 700 and D300 with 4:1. It's a wee bit low for my taste in situations as you've described. I LOVED it on the Rubicon FWIW, but for my "normal" Moab stuff, sometimes it's lower than I like it to be when starting out.


I do like your "Ram" axle idea also. No lockouts to hang on rocks and such. Easy to find, semi-cheap parts and fairly strong. Should drive like a solid axle GM? I think the 5.3L will really hustle that rig along the road and you shouldn't have to much issue with mountain passes and whatnot as far as power goes. Shouldn't be to hard to keep cool either?

 

[Metcalf]

I'm not a big 205 fan, but like it A LOT in your proposed application. You've thought through the size and weight issues that case presents. Sourcing a 27 spline (assuming the 6l80 is 27?---maybe it's 32?) 205 could be interesting but not impossible. I might just go to an Atlas but then you're spending $ again as you mention. The 6 speed trans is a really cool option and should work with the 205 2:1 like you're thinking?

The np205 is only about 5-10lbs heavier than a 4speed atlas so I don't think its too far out of line. The bolt pattern on a ford 205 should let it bolt to the factory 4x4 6l80 adapter with a little work or the pretty affordable AA replacement adapter. The 6l80 uses a 32 spline output shaft. You can use either the 4wd or 2wd version which opens up some options also. Getting a 32 spline np205 input is pretty easy.

I would use an atlas if I had the extra money, but $2500 for a 2spd unit is pretty expensive. I can get a completely rebuilt ready to bolt in np205 off the shelf for half that. If I rebuilt it myself I can probably do it for 1/10th the cost of the atlas almost.

You're making me want to repower my REALLY tired TBI 350/700 with your 5.3/6L80 idea...not going to do it, but it sounds like something to think about if I build another rig (JKU is getting "built" as a go anywhere type rig while the current rig can take most any trail and is more versatile than I'll give it credit for. It's just not awesome on the road but you've proved you can drive anything anywhere with some patience and planning)

Hopefully I can get it so it will cruise 75-80 without too much drama, that would be nice. I'm not looking for anything super fancy.....just basically a longer slightly more modern version of my Willys

I think you'll be time ahead with the alum. tub as you mention. Love the frame idea and the freedom that gives you for powertrain, materials and crossmember placement. The only thing you're stuck with is the brackets for the tub. The rest is flexible and you can make it work, package and perform like you intend it to.

That is the general idea. I am designing everything in sub-assemblies so I can just weld it in where it needs to go. I have some designs on the table for the shock towers, crossmembers, etc....but I will probably have to adjust those designs as I get more the chassis fleshed out in real life. In the end it should be simple and clean without a lot of the OEM style .gov mandated BS.

You're right on with the wheelspeed thing. I have a 700 and D300 with 4:1. It's a wee bit low for my taste in situations as you've described. I LOVED it on the Rubicon FWIW, but for my "normal" Moab stuff, sometimes it's lower than I like it to be when starting out.

What ring and pinions are you running? I would think your down int he 4.88-5.38 range...so 60-65:1 crawl ratio?

One other nice thing about the 6l80 is that it is a clutch to clutch transmission which makes the shifting at lower vehicle speeds, like in low range, less noticeable and smoother. Even with 50:1 crawl ratios you shouldn't get that big 1-2 lurch when trying to gather a little wheel speed.

I do like your "Ram" axle idea also. No lockouts to hang on rocks and such. Easy to find, semi-cheap parts and fairly strong. Should drive like a solid axle GM? I think the 5.3L will really hustle that rig along the road and you shouldn't have to much issue with mountain passes and whatnot as far as power goes. Shouldn't be to hard to keep cool either?

Thanks. That is the general idea. The 2002 units are the best of the bunch and fairly common in junkyards. They are basically like big TJ axles. The front end is a low pinion D60, no disconnect housing, a higher than normal steering arm position, they take 2003+ AAM brakes, 33 spline D60 U-joint outer, etc. The rear axle can be a 60/70/80. I will probably use the D60 version. Its low pinion, has nice big tubes, full float with big spindle bores, factory disc brakes, etc. They also take the larger 2003+ dodge AAM brakes. They are wide, but they accept very high backspacing wheels without issue. I can run 6.13" dodge 2500 wheels without any spacers. That gets the overall width back down into a wide jeep range....80-81" depending on tires give or take.

Power. It will be decent. Its a nice mild V8 that can run on regular unleaded. You can also get them with aluminum blocks in the later versions. I think it will be enough power without going into overkill range. I can always swap in a 6.0/6.2 if I change my mind. It is all a balance of compromise....

 

[redthies]

Aqualu should be able to send you the cad drawings of what you are ordering. If you are doing something custom, you need to approve final drawings anyhow. You should have all the dimensions you need to fab your rolling chassis. There will always be a little tweaking to do when the tub arrives, but that will happen regardless.

 

[Metcalf]

Aqualu should be able to send you the cad drawings of what you are ordering. If you are doing something custom, you need to approve final drawings anyhow. You should have all the dimensions you need to fab your rolling chassis. There will always be a little tweaking to do when the tub arrives, but that will happen regardless.

Yeah, that probably won't happen. I tried. They are pretty dang protective of there information. I can understand that to a degree. They gave me some of the information I needed but not everything I would have liked to have. The data I really need is the stuff they didn't have, like the front clip data for a TJ ( grill shape and position relative to the belly of the chassis, distance forward, etc ). I am trying to cut some things pretty close on the design so just guessing or measuring another TJ probably isn't going to close enough for full frame construction.

I could probably get really close on everything but the front crossmember/winchmount/grill mount sub assembly. It should be easy enough to trim the frame horns to length and then weld in that assembly after I have the body with front clip in place.

I do still have some pretty vague data on stuff like the amount of front kick I can built into the frame. I was pretty conservative in my guess but it should work ok.

I would love to be able to design the entire thing in Solidworks but getting good models of the tub, engine, or transmission is nearly impossible. Honestly I can probably design faster than I can build so doing some stuff on the fly shouldn't be too big of an issue.

 

[Viggen]

So, you want a continuous body, not a pick up right?

As for Aqualu, they are cool and all but come with no cut outs or anything so you are going to have to mess with a lot. Why not buy an LJ tub? Anywhere from $300 to $1300 at Daveys Jeeps and save the remaining $3k for parts. Plus, with a factory frame, you know that every single Jeep thing, from cage kits to hardtops to Tuffy boxes will fit.

Would these TJ frame crash dimensions help?

 

[Metcalf]

So, you want a continuous body, not a pick up right?

As for Aqualu, they are cool and all but come with no cut outs or anything so you are going to have to mess with a lot. Why not buy an LJ tub? Anywhere from $300 to $1300 at Daveys Jeeps and save the remaining $3k for parts. Plus, with a factory frame, you know that every single Jeep thing, from cage kits to hardtops to Tuffy boxes will fit.

[/IMG]

It's an option. I think that I will be at a point where I would have to HEAVILY modify a stock LJ tub to get what I want. Here is the list of mods that I want...

-The rear tubs need to be raised. This will allow a larger tire at a lower stance along with a fully upright shock position.
-I want to be able to lay a 40" tire flat on the rear floor. The wheel tubs would need further modification.
-The tunnel will need to be modified the larger transmission and transfer case.
-I don't want a swing out tailgate
-The area under the drivers seat will need to be heavily modified for the transfer case
-I want a simple 'flat' style dash

So basically I would be cutting and chopping a significant portion of the stock body apart and remaking it. That takes a lot of time. I have welded a lot of factory sheetmetal in last few years with my latest builds. Honestly, welding on thin factory sheetmetal sucks. There is a lot of paint, undercoating, road grime, and double wall sections that must be dealt with. Factory sheetmetal is pretty thin and a total pain in the butt to weld really.

The aqualu tub, even though I have to modify a few things, will all be new, clean, flat, and thicker aluminum. I think it just makes a better canvas.

One other thing. It might be easier to get a totally scratch built vehicle titled rather than fight not having a title for a VIN, or having to use a salvage VIN. That could go either way, but in my state if you built it from complete scratch it might actually be easier.

On the frame. Honestly the TJ/LJ frame isn't anything to write home about. I don't plan on using the stock suspension, coil spring, shock, or motor mounts. The frame is also wide enough in the rear portion that you can't run an outboarded shock without having to chop into the frame. The original body would bolt up, the aqualu one wouldn't probably. I just don't see much value or utility in using the stock frame. The main rails of a scratch built frame are only going to cost maybe $200 or so in materials....

Like I have said before, it is all a balance of time and money vs the final product. I've been thinking about this project for a few years now. I have worked through a lot of these variations in my head more than once. In the end I also want something that is fairly easily to reproduce. There are only a limited number of LJs in the market since the run was so short. I think having a way to scratch build an affordable replacement could be a good thing.

 

[Viggen]

Im sorry, I didnt mean factory frame (theyre garbage) I meant the factory tub. I have often thought about something like your project before but am stopped by emissions requirements. LJs are cool but I hate the 4.0 and any sort of swap creates OBDII problems, not to mention the issues with cost making one work will be. Also, stock Jeep suspension is geometrically crap. Anti dive and other things are just too high. A custom frame with a custom 4 link rear and 3 link front would be so much better.

 

[Metcalf]

Im sorry, I didnt mean factory frame (theyre garbage) I meant the factory tub. I have often thought about something like your project before but am stopped by emissions requirements. LJs are cool but I hate the 4.0 and any sort of swap creates OBDII problems, not to mention the issues with cost making one work will be. Also, stock Jeep suspension is geometrically crap. Anti dive and other things are just too high. A custom frame with a custom 4 link rear and 3 link front would be so much better.

Yeah. I think we are on the same page.

I just don't see the value in using a stock tub if I am going to have to rework a LOT of it to get some of the major features I want. Working with a clean straight panel aluminum tub is pretty dang tempting to me.

I can see some utility in being able to use the factory TJ heater, wipers, etc. I don't want to use the stock TJ dash though and working around all the stock heater stuff could be a bit of a challenge.

Like I said before, any way has pluses and minuses.

 

[Viggen]

So, why havent you entertained something like a Brute and a topper? Just curious because it is something that I think about but basing it on a YJ (or at least a YJ VIN) to get me into tailpipe sniffer instead of OBDII requirements. An LS based combo will retain OBDII but not make it a state requirement.

My other thought was a Willys wagon on an LJ frame since they are so damn close dimensionally. Problem then is its an old Willys needing a complete updating to be somewhat comfortable.

 

[Metcalf]

So, why havent you entertained something like a Brute and a topper? Just curious because it is something that I think about but basing it on a YJ (or at least a YJ VIN) to get me into tailpipe sniffer instead of OBDII requirements. An LS based combo will retain OBDII but not make it a state requirement.

My other thought was a Willys wagon on an LJ frame since they are so damn close dimensionally. Problem then is its an old Willys needing a complete updating to be somewhat comfortable.

Sorry. I missed your other question. I do want a continuous body, not a truck. The main reason for this is to be able to have a body length sleeping platform in the vehicle. I think with a passenger seat that folded flat the platform could extend all the way to the dash fairly easily along with being as wide as the passenger seat AND the center console. I would like to be able to go into a stealth sleeping mode on long road trips without having to exit the cabin. You would reach over an flip the passenger seat flat followed by flipping/pulling the forward section of the platform over the seat, then be able to crawl directly onto the platform for some sleep.....

I think with a pickup bed long enough to sleep in the wheelbase and/or rear overhang would be too long.

In most states there are kit car laws that let you build a vehicle from scratch without having to worry about emissions for the most part. Some states are better or worse. In my county in Colorado its pretty dang easy and the laws are pretty laxed.

The main problem for me using a complete SUV body like a Willys Wagon is much the same as using the LJ tub. I would most likely have the modify the tub so much it would be very time consuming. The Willys wagon that Mopar Performance did was really neat, but not my thing. To be able to push this thing as hard as I want off road having a full body with a full top is going to be a little bit too much. One nice thing about a 'jeep' type vehicle is that the top is removable or replaceable. If you tag the upper rear corner you can replace the top by just unbolting the old one. With a full SUV body like a Willys wagon your stuck with repairing the OEM body panel, having to cut out the old stuff and replace it with hard to find new stuff, or maybe run a heavy exocage to protect those areas.

One very nice little subtle feature of the LJ tub is that the factory roll bar didn't go to a 90 degree corner on the B to C pillar tube. It was more of a 45 degree bend. This means that all the aftermarket frameless soft tops followed this profile. The TJ frameless top was good at reducing bulk in the rear of the body, but the LJ style is even better.

Edit for a pic.....this thread needs more pics...my bad.

 

[TooTall'sTruck]

While I haven"t read through all 21 pages, I will give my next idea for a build. I previously had a 1991 XJ 2door and have slept in it before, stealth like. And I am 6'9" so I am sure you could fit for a night or two, I did relocate the drivers seat rearward about a foot, the front bracket holes went into the rear floorpan holes and I drilled new rear bracket holes. The two doors have much better access and the passanger seat is easily folded or even removed from the Jeep. It had a decent 4.0L but was lacking for long uphill highway runs.

My new plan is to find an old XJ 2 door donor and mount the unibody onto a late 80's early 90's Ford truck chassis. This would gain me a very simple (and cheap to repair,rebuilt fuel pump is $600 and rebuilding all 8 injectors is $250)diesel 7.3L N/A that should get great mileage with little overall vehicle weight, the E40D was available in the bricknose and even had a dash mounted switch instead of the shift lever button like the 1992+ has, which is easily mounted on the XJ dash. This engine would be great cantidate for burning waste oil or even kerosene if need be.

This vehicle would need to have the frame sectioned more than likely but being as the XJ would be atop a Ford frame already, the longer wheelbase is easily attained and the wheel wells don't have to center over the axles.

If you found a F350 it would already have the D60 solid axle front end but I found a brick nose F250 with the TTB D50 that will be strong enough for the 35" max tires (255/85-16 most likely) and with a newly rebuilt E40D I can get the not-running truck for $800-$1500.

This would be ideal for my next off road mostly rig since the mix of 3/4 ton parts and XJ size is easier this way rather than overbuild a unibody and stuff a 444cid engine in the Jeep, because I could cut the living daylights out of the XJ to fit over the Ford frame and components.

Worst part to my plan is fabbing up body mounts, but with a vehicle lift it should prove easy.
Width might be a concern but should be manegable.

My 2 cents....not to read the other 20 previous pages!!

 

[Metcalf]

Too tall, thanks for the idea. I would be interested to see one done.

My last trip was 13 nights and 2300 miles that included 300+ miles of pretty hard core snow-wheeling. I need it to be comfortable for more than 1 or 2 nights.

I am avoiding a diesel on this one. I already have my Dodge truck and am chasing a little more 'fun' factor with this one.

 

[bftank]

i've been lurking again metcalf. you always have great ideas and i enjoy the visible thought process of getting there. helps me think through my stuff a little better.


tootall you and i have a similar thought process. i am going to use an explorer body instead of a cherokee. these were offered in 4door and 2door and dont have a unibody to get in the way plus the dashes are more similar. powerstroke instead of idi. thinking of lengthening the front clip by using a narrowed f150 clip from the 70's. metcalf has me debating doing a custom frame instead though. i need to streamline my fabrication process.