Long Jeep.....chasing unicorns

[Metcalf]

Alright so I have read the whole thread and I have come to a simple conclusion on it after seeing lots of great ideas in this thread. Build it yourself. You have probably said that 5-10 times about spending less money building a frame, body and all that yourself instead of buying a donor vehicle and gutting it. Time to get out some paper and start sketching! With all the ideas in this thread and the skill level you say you have, you should be able to make 1 heck of a vehicle we all drool over.

Thanks, I try and do projects that keep people entertained and slightly jealous

The sketching and measuring has already commenced. I have had this idea and a few others on the table for a few years. I am kinda pulling parts and pieces from about 3 different concepts into one vehicle. Getting my Willys 'done', yeah right!, was a big step. There is now room in the shop for another project.

I'm not planning on building the body. That is kinda my limit. I could probably figure it out, but Aqualu already did and for what you get I think it will probably be worth it. I will still probably have to mod the tunnel, make lots of mounts, and add a few other features I have in mind but overall it should be terrible. Being able to use the factory doors, tops, windshield frame, and a lot of the cool options out there for fenders/hoods, not to mention using a factory grill with factory cooling package mounts should make my life a little easier in some areas....

The LJ seems to be a common choice in the thread. I have 1 and love it but I tow it everywhere. A V8 would be great, 4.1 transfer case, 60 rear, 44 front, very little lift with trimmed/tube fenders to fit the tires. I wouldn't want to move the rear axle any because you don't want to lose any gas tank space. Towing would still not be that great because towing is calculated based on other factors besides engine and axle size. Stock LJ is rated for 3,000 lbs towing and you said towing car projects so I assume a 1,500 car trailer + weight of the car so you got some ways to go. In the end, an LJ is still kind of a small vehicle inside to me so it would fit the cross country bill for me.

I think the LJ tub might be the best size combination from the factory. Not too long, Not too short. The CJ8 is tempting but with the departure angle I want I think the wheelbase would end up a little bit too long.

V8, yes, I think I have to go there for this size vehicle with the size tires I have planned. I could get by with a 4.0 but I think I would just end up swapping it out later anyways so its kinda like buying an engine twice.

No 4:1 for me. I want to try something a little different with this 6l80/np205/deep axle gear idea. Basically 4:1 low range performance with more speed possible in low range for sand/desert/mild type stuff.

60 rear, yes. Full float too and a factory axle for bearings and brakes. No super custom expensive stuff.

44 front, no. I need a bit more axle. I had thought about doing a JK high pinion D44 but decided against it. I think it would work find but finding a factory 5 on 5 or 5 on 5.5 rear axle that was as strong proved difficult.

The LJ fuel tank is actually 5" forward from the TJ position. You could push the axle and tank back 5" and still have the same fuel tank. If you want more capacity than stock like the 'Safari' tank from GenRight than yes. For me, it will be a custom tank anyways. Rough measuring and I can get a 20-25 gallon tank in the back behind the axle without having the tank hang down as much as the TJ tank. I don't have to work around the stock TJ/LJ body shape, frame shape, etc....

Towing. It's a stretch, but I think it would work out ok for the towing I do. I don't hitch up 20K and go cross country. If its a fully custom vehicle from the frame up don't I get to make up the towing rating myself? It will have a basically 3/4ton-1ton drivetrain AND the bigger brakes off the 03+ dodge axles ( almost 14" rotors front and rear ). I have a few ideas for the rear suspension that might help out a little bit for towing.

Size. Its all about compromise. The LJ feels huge compared to my Willys, and honestly pretty big compared to the regular cab dodge too.

 

[Lumberjack]

Lots of good ideas!

-The rear wheel tubs could be raised. This would let you run a much larger tire at a much lower overall height. On the custom tub the top of the wheel tubs are also flat, much easier for making a platform, mounting things, etc.

One a TJ with High Line front fenders you can run 37" with no lift and 40"s with a 2" lift. Rear wheel tubs most likely wouldn't need any mods except some trimming to the fender opening. http://shop.poisonspyder.com/TJ-DeFender-XC-3-Tapered-Flares-Steel-p/14-02-093.htm

-The tunnel can be made much taller. This would let you mount the engine, transmission, and transfer case higher in the chassis with more belly clearance at a lower ride height.

Flat skid is fairly easy if using NP231, an Atlas 4 speed would require some tub mods, IIRC a big hammer can make for the appropriate room, but your tunnel building skills would make it perfect.

-I don't really love the stock TJ dash. I think it sticks out a bit too much and takes up too much space. I would rather have a more simple flat(ish) style CJ style dash. You could probably gain another 3-4" of room for the sleeping platform on the passenger side this way.

I know the feeling, way to much plastic. I remember seeing a jeepspeed build on Pirate where they did a flat dash, looked really cool. I can't sem to find the link.

Lumberjack
Ok with your skills this would be no problem...

You Sir have mad SKILLS, I learned a lot from your flatty build, mine mediocre... You used way more skills to build that flatty (awesome by the way - someday I will own-build one) than I did stretching that TJ. That was the first time I had ever used a mig welder or welded anyhting for that matter since high school - 25 years ago.

It basically falls into that stock vehicle black hole, is that REALLY less work overall for the product you get in the end? I'm not super in love with anything TJ really. I don't think I would keep a single thing really......having a dash and climate control would be nice, but you are still going to have to wire in a different engine, gauges maybe, etc. The stock wiring harness would be there but i think once you add in another possible computer to control another brand of engine things get kinda complicated.

If you stay in the Chrysler family, say 318 or 360, you can use a Dakota computer, complete with VIN flashed in. If your good at tracking wires you can mod the harness yourself or send in your harness to Backwoods Offroad http://www.backwoodsoffroad.com/ and they will do it for you. You can even plug into the ORBII port and see what is going on and it will pass emissions test in all but Cali. Gauges at this point would be your choice, since you could whatever you wanted or factory if you kept the dash. If you found an older TJ with manual climate controls, you could modify it to look old school pretty easy, just 2 cables and a rotary switch. 2002+ TJ's had electric controls I think.

That is VERY cool though. How did the 109"(ish) wheelbase feel?

Wheelbase was 108"... It was awesome, so stable on and off road - climbing steep hills was no longer nerve racking.
Only changes I would make:
- 40" Tire with High Line - Lower suspension 2" -3" to lower the center of gravity.
- 64" WMS to WMS Axles, just a few inches wider than stock for better side hill stability, I hate being off camber so this would be more for my piece of mind.

My thoughts on using a TJ is they can be found reasonable and give you a great starting platform. Stretching the frame was really that easy, we literally had it split down the middle in a few hours, we would have had it back together that day if we would have had the steel around to sleeve it. The suspension works well - even in short arm mode. Lots of options available to build from there.

Now that my friend put the turbo on the 4 banger, he can drive 80mph to the trail head, wheel it hard, and 80mph back home. He has done the Rubicon, Fordyce, and several hard trails here local without issue. With Dana 60's or maybe truhi9's, you could drive everywhere and do any trail you want and drive home.

Trying to find a do all vehicle is hard, they all have pros' and con's. This rig for me was close to perfect for all my needs. It drove the road nice and offroad my courage/ego failed way before the machine

 

[Metcalf]

One a TJ with High Line front fenders you can run 37" with no lift and 40"s with a 2" lift. Rear wheel tubs most likely wouldn't need any mods except some trimming to the fender opening.

True, but it also depends on how much uptravel you want from ride height...

The highline front fenders are no issue, but they end up a decent amount higher than the top of the stock tub. I think if the tubs where a bit taller you could gain a few more inches uptravel, room for a more upright shock, etc. Having the nice flat wheel tubs could be really nice too.....

Flat skid is fairly easy if using NP231, an Atlas 4 speed would require some tub mods, IIRC a big hammer can make for the appropriate room, but your tunnel building skills would make it perfect.

With the stock transmissions its pretty easy to get mostly flat. You can actually go completely flat with an AW4 and 231 with zero body lift is you shimmy things around a little

Once you add a larger transmission like the 545 or 6l80 than things start to get pretty tight. Not to mention the np205 I have in mind.

Cutting and fabbing another tunnel makes me lean more towards the Aqualu tub. No e-coating, undercoating, sound deading, or double wall contruction to deal with. It would just be nice clean flat aluminum to deal with....oh to dream!

I know the feeling, way to much plastic. I remember seeing a jeepspeed build on Pirate where they did a flat dash, looked really cool. I can't sem to find the link.

If you find it let me know. I have seen a few TJs flat dashed and liked it.


You Sir have mad SKILLS, I learned a lot from your flatty build, mine mediocre... You used way more skills to build that flatty (awesome by the way - someday I will own-build one) than I did stretching that TJ. That was the first time I had ever used a mig welder or welded anyhting for that matter since high school - 25 years ago.

Thank you very much.

If you stay in the Chrysler family, say 318 or 360, you can use a Dakota computer, complete with VIN flashed in. If your good at tracking wires you can mod the harness yourself or send in your harness to Backwoods Offroad http://www.backwoodsoffroad.com/ and they will do it for you. You can even plug into the ORBII port and see what is going on and it will pass emissions test in all but Cali. Gauges at this point would be your choice, since you could whatever you wanted or factory if you kept the dash. If you found an older TJ with manual climate controls, you could modify it to look old school pretty easy, just 2 cables and a rotary switch. 2002+ TJ's had electric controls I think.

I thought about it pretty hard as I considered using an LJ tub. I think the 5.2/5.9 stuff is neat, not to mention the possible stroker combinations.

I just don't think its an overall efficient way to build. Installing a 5.3 GM engine is 3-wire brainless in a custom chassis. Swapping out even a stock 4cyl and swapping in a 5.9 to work with the stock TJ computer stuff is going to be more work. The Chrysler computer programming is freaking like a .gov black ops secret or something. You can get GM computer editing programs all day long from more than one source. It is also very well supported on board and forums. Try finding that stuff for Chrysler computers!

Then you get into the transmission options. There really just isn't a great transmission option from Chrysler if you ask me. I looked pretty hard at the Getrag 238 6-spd manual behind the 5.9. Most any other combination I worked up started to put me into the situation where I would probably need a multi-range transfer case system. For me, spending $3K+ on an atlas 4-spd makes my head spin. Running the numbers the 6l80/np205/deep axle gear combo works out REALLY well. Its also fairly cheap and easy. Using a factory matched transmission and engine is really attractive, especially one I can get into with EFIlive or a similar program.....

Wheelbase was 108"... It was awesome, so stable on and off road - climbing steep hills was no longer nerve racking.

Good to know. I think the general range with minimal rear overhang is where I want to be....

Only changes I would make:
- 40" Tire with High Line - Lower suspension 2" -3" to lower the center of gravity.
- 64" WMS to WMS Axles, just a few inches wider than stock for better side hill stability, I hate being off camber so this would be more for my piece of mind.

Pretty much on the same page with that stuff.

My thoughts on using a TJ is they can be found reasonable and give you a great starting platform. Stretching the frame was really that easy, we literally had it split down the middle in a few hours, we would have had it back together that day if we would have had the steel around to sleeve it. The suspension works well - even in short arm mode. Lots of options available to build from there.

I know, its a tough call. Starting with something or not. Honestly I am shying away from the body work if I can. I know I could pull it off but the idea of having nice clean metal to make mods from is REALLY sounding good.

The TJ suspension is a good one. With what I have in mind with the axle stretching I have to wonder if it wouldn't be easier to just start over. There are some areas, mainly lower control arm mounts that would be WAY improved on. I could see myself using a TJ suspension in some situations but once you get into new axle territory I just don't know if its worth it. With the larger axles I would have to change a bunch of stuff anyways. The front axle needs to go forward a few inches in my opinion.....then you get into steering box moving....etc etc. Starting with a clean sheet of paper sounds good at this point. I will probably regret that choice later some days I am sure.

I have seen more than one lower control arm mount get ripped off a TJ frame with tires smaller than 40s. The rear lower side frame mount is kinda a rock magnet. Front trackbar is weak and has a stupid joint on the frame side. Rear trackbar is a bit short making the butt end wiggle funny in some situations.

I will admit that the TJ suspension works pretty well when kept close to stock geometry.

Now that my friend put the turbo on the 4 banger, he can drive 80mph to the trail head, wheel it hard, and 80mph back home. He has done the Rubicon, Fordyce, and several hard trails here local without issue. With Dana 60's or maybe truhi9's, you could drive everywhere and do any trail you want and drive home.

That is what I basically want. Do anything....drive back home. I am basically stuck in thinking that building from scratch may be less work in the long run than building from an existing vehicle.

Trying to find a do all vehicle is hard, they all have pros' and con's. This rig for me was close to perfect for all my needs. It drove the road nice and offroad my courage/ego failed way before the machine

Very much agree.....very hard. There will always be a compromise or two or three or four or more.

 

[Bigjerm]

I got curious about the LJ tank and pushing the axle back so I went and looked

Def no room between axle and tank

BUT remove the rear cross member and you got some room (exscuse the mud on my trailer queen)

I still think there isnt much need to move the axle unless you just want those few inches on the wheelbase. I clear 35's with a 2" lift and 1" lift and trimming of the body with Metalcloak rear fenders.

Do you plan to shave the D60? I was thinking that's a big ol pumpkin to drag around with 33s or even 35s!


sent from my dumb phone

 

[Metcalf]

Just to keep everyone's brain working....

What about air bags for primary rear suspension?

I am thinking that this vehicle will be changing the load on the rear suspension a lot depending on its mission. I can see running super light and stripped down for crazy hard stuff and around town most days. Packing for a week or two trip will add a significant amount of weight that will need to be adjusted for......fuel, food, gear, etc. Hitch up a trailer and you have even more possible load.

The rear air suspension, even with a simple 'manual' control system would allow you to do some other things besides adjust for load. You could level the jeep to a degree for sleeping, not only front to back but probably side to side to a degree. You could drop the rear end all the way down for loading the big freaking spare tire in the back or for trying to squeak under a tree on the trail. You could raise the suspension up to help pull the belly off something or if you want that 1960s hot rod look. I think there would even be the limited ability to twist the car side to side if needed to help with sidehill stability or that floaty feeling you can get sometimes with a link suspension.

Just another thought....

 

[Metcalf]

I still think there isnt much need to move the axle unless you just want those few inches on the wheelbase. I clear 35's with a 2" lift and 1" lift and trimming of the body with Metalcloak rear fenders.

Do you plan to shave the D60? I was thinking that's a big ol pumpkin to drag around with 33s or even 35s!

sent from my dumb phone

Yup, cut that crossmember out and you can shift the fuel tank back to the TJ position with a little work on the front mount.

For me the magic wheelbase seems to be about the 110 range. The LJ needs a little more wheelbase. I would probably split the difference and go about 2" in the front to keep the front tire out of the back of the fender and 4" in the rear to maximize the departure angle.

No shave on the 60. I don't want to deal with the possible leaks and custom diff cover. I might smooth up the bottom with a grinder if I can...

This vehicle will probably be getting 37-40" tires.....probably more in the 39-40" range. I run 39s on my Dodge daily and have not really found a downside....well...other than cost. For the amount of off road performance I want I pretty much have to go that big. Also, I like playing in the deep deep snow and big stupid tires are pretty much a must.

 

[shmabs]

My thoughts

As a guy who has read your dodge and willys thread, i'm very excited to see where this goes. You're building one of my dream vehicles.....

Initially, this came to mind.

http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/projectbuild/131_0902_jeep_cj8_scrambler_build/

But after reading more about your goals and plans, that doesn't fit the bill.

Here goes my thoughts/questions

I have seen aqualu tubs first hand and they are artwork, and for the price, i consider them a steal. I'm sure you could get the tub set-up with higher/narrower wheel wells which as you mentioned would increase the "useful" space in the back a good bit. Do you have the ability to work with alu if you should need to modify the tub?

Using a factory based tub seems like the best way to go to me, i know there will be headaches with it here and there, but the pros far outweigh the cons. I think the best part of keeping this thing "loosely" jeep based is parts availability, especially when it comes to tops, doors, windshields etc.

I love the idea of the 5.3 6l80e/205 combo. I believe you said you could get that engine and tranny setup from the factory, might i ask what vehicle/setup that was?

Airbags: I have seen and worked on a few airbag only setups and like anything else, when truly designed to be a total suspension from the beginning, not an afterthought they can work really well. All of the setups I have seen were all relatively little travel, what kind of travel numbers are you hoping for, and what sort of bag are you thinking to use? Something like the old airrock setup comes to mind:

http://www.rockcrawler.com/features/newsshorts/02may/oro_airrock.asp

Of course there is always the issue with durability and on the trail replacement when it comes to bags. Most bags that are designed to be a primary suspension are plenty tough, semi bags come to mind.

Mike

 

[MrBeast]

The air ride suspension sounds like a win to me.

 

[Grasslakeron]

This may be a dumb question but I would find an lj to measure, pull the seats and lay down in. Have you looked at the small campers that were made for the first generation broncos?
http://broncograveyard.com/v/broncos/66camper/
http://www.offroadaction.ca/2010/03/07/more-early-ford-bronco-campers/
You could do something like this.

Ron

 

[Metcalf]

As a guy who has read your dodge and willys thread, i'm very excited to see where this goes. You're building one of my dream vehicles.....

Thank you. I think it should be pretty neat in the end. I wish I could just build full time and not have to worry about work and all that stuff. This project will probably take a few years to complete at the rate I fab and fund projects.

Initially, this came to mind.

http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/project...rambler_build/

But after reading more about your goals and plans, that doesn't fit the bill.

Close for sure. I just want some things a little different. My big issue with the CJ8 is the overall length and top selection. It is just a little too long. I am kinda splitting hairs but if I am going to build another frame up custom vehicle I think I can do that....

Here goes my thoughts/questions

I have seen aqualu tubs first hand and they are artwork, and for the price, i consider them a steal. I'm sure you could get the tub set-up with higher/narrower wheel wells which as you mentioned would increase the "useful" space in the back a good bit. Do you have the ability to work with alu if you should need to modify the tub?

I have access to a nice Lincoln 275 TIG machine at the work shop. I'm always looking to have an excuse to buy new tools for my home shop

So far I have at least one area I will have to mod on the tub for sure. That would be the tunnel. There is basically no way for me to know how the 6l80/np205 is going to look all tucked up in the chassis. My basic plan in to tuck the LS truck engine intake as close to the hood as I can and try and get the transmission and transfer case up for a flat belly. The 6l80 is pretty tall and the np205 is not small. I fully expect to have to make a new tunnel. Since it will most likely be a plate fab tunnel I could cut, trim, and fit all the parts at home and just tape them together. Then weld them in at the work shop one weekend. More than likely since the tunnel is going to be pretty large the seat mounts will also have to be fully custom. I am looking at using an OEM seat set from something with a 'fold flat' front seat so none of the jeep mount stuff would probably work anyways.

Using a factory based tub seems like the best way to go to me, i know there will be headaches with it here and there, but the pros far outweigh the cons. I think the best part of keeping this thing "loosely" jeep based is parts availability, especially when it comes to tops, doors, windshields etc.

That is generally my thought. I just don't think a factory OEM steel tub is the way to go. The aluminum tub will be a lot closer to what I want and the mods I will need to do to it will be on super clean fresh metal.

I love the idea of the 5.3 6l80e/205 combo. I believe you said you could get that engine and tranny setup from the factory, might i ask what vehicle/setup that was?

I think that combo started to be an option in 2008ish GM 1/2 ton trucks....something around that....

Airbags: I have seen and worked on a few airbag only setups and like anything else, when truly designed to be a total suspension from the beginning, not an afterthought they can work really well. All of the setups I have seen were all relatively little travel, what kind of travel numbers are you hoping for, and what sort of bag are you thinking to use? Something like the old airrock setup comes to mind:

http://www.rockcrawler.com/features/...ro_airrock.asp

Of course there is always the issue with durability and on the trail replacement when it comes to bags. Most bags that are designed to be a primary suspension are plenty tough, semi bags come to mind.

I was thinking about using something like this Firestone bag...

It is a primary suspension bag. Firestone 01-358-5492 if my notes are correct. It has MORE than enough travel range. I am probably going to try and run a 12" travel shock on this vehicle. I think that is a good compromise overall. I don't really buy into the whole max articulation thing. This bad should have enough travel range to allow me to have some load on the bag at all times throughout the suspensions travel range. It shouldn't need to go into a slacked out situation. This should act like some preload on the rear suspension so you don't get the vague transition feeling as the suspension drops out.

The airrock system is neat but WAY too complex for me. I just want a single dual needle gauge with some manual valves. All the lines with be nylon push lock fittings to make the plumbing light and easily field repairable. Each rear bag will be on its own separate circuit and will not be able to transfer air back and forth to keep stability in the rear suspension.

I would only be running the air suspension on the REAR. I don't really have an interest on running it in front. I just don't think I need it. The number one function of the rear air suspension is to deal with changing payload. The front pretty stays as a consistent load. Some weight can be transferred to the front suspension if it is placed ahead of the rear axle, but then the same rear air bags can still be adjusted to level the vehicle.

The front suspension will most likely be a coilover at this point. I really want to upgrade to shocks I can valve on this car. It is something I have always wanted to be able to play with. I don't know if I will be able to swing 2.5" shocks, but even good quality 2" remote reservoir shocks should be a HUGE improvement over anything I have ran in the past. FOA offers an affordable 2.5 but I have a friend running them and he hasn't been THAT happy with them.

 

[mcneil]

Metcalf, you're an inspiration. Or instigation. Either way, my TJ's in pieces in the driveway and my wife blames threads like this.

You didn't mention aesthetics. What about a cab-forward concept with a box camper in the back? Did you ever see the Jeep "Mighty FC" concept?
Summary:
39.5" Krawlers
Portal Axles
Stock JK drivetrain
~6500lbs
117.5" WB
Bed long enough to sleep in and even hold a camper shell

 

[MrBeast]

a great source for air ride stuff is www.suicidedoors.com Thorbecke Brothers make some damn good products.

 

[Metcalf]

This may be a dumb question but I would find an lj to measure, pull the seats and lay down in. Have you looked at the small campers that were made for the first generation broncos?
http://broncograveyard.com/v/broncos/66camper/
http://www.offroadaction.ca/2010/03/07/more-early-ford-bronco-campers/
You could do something like this.

Ron

While the idea is really cool, for what I want this vehicle to do it is just too much weight and bulk in the rear of the chassis.

I have a few ideas that I have been kicking around for some micro-camper stuff inside a regular LJ cabin space. The number one thing I need is a space to sleep inside. I think an LJ JUST gives me enough room to do that if the sleeping platform is at wheel tub level and goes all the way forward to a flatter CJ7 style dash. Improving the sleeping area a little bit with some super light privacy curtains on the inside would be the next thing I would do. That lets you stealth camp in some more crowded type areas without people being able to see you wiggle out of your skivys in the morning. Being able to go from driving to sleeping without really having to exit the car would be nice. I think that is possible with 1 persion but more difficult with two in something the size of an LJ.

I should be able to use the vehicle heater in the morning to take the chill off if I want. This is the lightest option most likely. It uses more fuel than I would like but I usually let the vehicle warm up for a bit on cold mornings anyways. Adding one of those gas fired vehicle pre-heaters is another option that might work out ok. I am only basically looking for tent camping comfort without having to set up the tent. If I ever did a super long purely expedition style trip I could always stick a factory hard top on it or something different.

Looking at some of the fold flat seats in other vehicles a lot of them have a little 'table' on the back. I half wonder if I couldn't use that for a little stove mount? Being able to pull over, fold the seat forward, and make something hot to drink sounds REALLY nice on winter time solo trips. I have a few other ideas that I don't want to give away just yet. There has to be some surprises during the build

 

[Metcalf]

Metcalf, you're an inspiration. Or instigation. Either way, my TJ's in pieces in the driveway and my wife blames threads like this.

You didn't mention aesthetics. What about a cab-forward concept with a box camper in the back? Did you ever see the Jeep "Mighty FC" concept?
Summary:
39.5" Krawlers
Portal Axles
Stock JK drivetrain
~6500lbs
117.5" WB
Bed long enough to sleep in and even hold a camper shell

I looked at that pretty long the year it came out. It is a neat idea but not really my style. Having driven some cab forward stuff in my fire engine days I probably wouldn't go that way. It honestly makes some people sick to ride in since it is so different from a normal car.

The bed in that FC concept was kinda interesting....there basically wasn't any depth to it. The engine was basically under the bed. All the weight in the bed would be REALLY high.

Lots of neat parts on that thing though. I wish I had the same budget those guys do a the Skunkworks!

 

[Metcalf]

a great source for air ride stuff is www.suicidedoors.com Thorbecke Brothers make some damn good products.

Lots of neat stuff there, thanks for the links.

A pair of those manual valves with a dual needle gauge would be perfect for what I have in mind. I think there also needs to be a check valve back to the source....