Long Jeep.....chasing unicorns

[Metcalf]

Concerning the exhaust, you might consider changing the orientation of the muffler. I seem to recall a lot of cars with packaging problems have gone to a perpendicular muffler, perhaps across the back. Some ATV's do this as well.

JKs do that too, but I think I will have to tuck in the frame if I run the fuel tank behind the rear axle. This is a long jeep and I am already running out of room!

I do have a question about axles. If you want heavy duty parts available off the shelf aren't you going to need to use full width 3/4 ton axles? Wagoneer or Scout axles are a little wider then standard CJ stuff, but not that much more heavy duty.

Yes, I am going to go with wider truck stuff. The general plan is 2002 dodge 2500 D60 front and rear. These axles are set up well to use high backspacing wheels no mods. The 03+ dodge wheels bolt on and are a 17x8 with 6.13" of backspacing. This will get the overall width back down with the wider axles, be easy on wheel bearings, and should allow for great streeing with the low scrub radius.

and if you go full width axles, aren't you really in the size/width of the CJ-10 regardless of what body you put on it?

The CJ10 body itself is the same width as a CJ7 body if I remember right?

I don't really care about the width of the axles, but keeping the width of the body down along with rear overhang. A 59"+ flares body width is fine with me. Outside of tire to outside of tire is going to be about 80"

 

[Metcalf]

For axle width comparisons, the CJ-10 in the picture has a stock D60 Chevy front with a WMS of 69.5, but stock deeeeeep offset H1 wheels. The fenders are about as wide as a regular CJ/YJ/TJ, and the 37x12.5s are about half under them. Very manageable width, they are almost completely covered by the modified TJ rear flares. The CJ-7 has a full retard-custom Toy 8 based axle with a WMS of 68. The fenders are cut down a couple inches, but with zero (about) offset rims the 40x13.5s are almost completely outside the fender.

That is the general idea. uncut axles and very high backspacing wheels. I don't want to have to mess with custom housings if I can help it.

I have found more luck with a 14 inch shock, not much more work to fit in than a 12, but not as stinking huge as a 16. We have built a couple Jeeps recently with 14 inch coilovers or ORIs and they have turned out nicely.

Rough measurements a 14" stroke shock won't fit under the rear wheel tub straight up. I would have to cant it way back.

Lets be realistic. With a 2.0 you will never go fast enough, long enough to sandblast your shocks. Especially with the added weight of a long Jeep. My little 7 weighs less than 4000 pounds, pretty darn good for a full off road Jeep. I have ORIs, which are not quite as efficient as coilovers, but they have huge size and piston size, and actually do pretty well. I would say they are somewhere between a 2.5 and a 3.0 in shock efficiency. I can run it around 40 mph for a long time and not have issues, but if I push it to 60 mph I can only get about 30 mins out of it before the shocks are HOT. Which is about the end of my talent anyways. I have never noticed shock wear from "sandblasting". My shocks are pretty tucked up on purpose, but I do nothing special.

Heck I get the sandblast thing just driving around on the gravel they put down on snowy roads around here. Even on the front its a concern. Follow people too close and after a few years the front end of the car will have bare metal showing.

The 2.0 thing is hopeful I guess. I'm not really after going super fast for hours on end over 3 foot whoops, but it is nice to be able to carry some speed on mild gravel roads and absorb the odd hit every now and again.

On our 3600 pound rock buggy the 2.0 shocks would get hot and start to rise after 30 mins of just going 40 mph, and my friends 2.0 coilovers get smokin' hot after 30 mins at high speed with a 4600 pound rig. It needed 2.5 coilovers and 2.5 bypasses to get under control.

So how are they getting those Carli Dodges to go so well in the desert with a single 2.5 on each wheel under a 7000+lb truck?

I guess where I am going is, with a full body long Jeep and a V8 with associated hardware to not break an axle every 20 mins you are going to be looking at 5500 pounds easy, loaded for a trip. 2.0s will fade much quicker than you can damage them with sand blasting! You would need minimum 2.5 coilovers with 2.5 shocks before you could get up any prolonged speed that is going to throw up enough stuff to wear your shocks.

See the above. I get the 'sandblast' thing just driving around here over a winter. The rocks on the road they put down are just big enough to get picked up by knobby tires and tossed at EVERYTHING. Maybe sandblast was the wrong word.....gravelblast maybe....

I'm hopping for WAY less than 5500lbs! That Poison spider LJ was just over 4K with 60s, 39s, atlas, steel body, stock frame, etc.

Besides that, mid arm is great, three link is great, I prefer dual triangulated so your axle stays nice and centered. I would run nice cheap heims, same in all joints, and bring a handful of them.

Really? rod ends full time with no cushion at all? This is not a KOH car....think 10,000 mile a year street jeep that does the other stuff.

I would also seriously consider full hydro. If you are worried bring a spare junkyard pump and some power steering fluid, but it flat out rocks.

Not interested in full hydro for this rig at all. Why are people like Jesse Haines, BTF, and a few others trying to go back to a steering box for go fast if full hydro is THAT good? I have NEVER been in a full hydro rig that I would want to go 70 down the interstate all day....

I am asking questions, not just busting your junk. Like me I think your coming more from the rock world crossing over to stuff that would see mild off road stuff but with many more miles off road. Thank you for your input and ideas.

 

[njtacoma]

Correct on the width of CJ-10, same width tub wise (at the doors) as a conventional CJ7/8

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

You want a muffler and a fuel tank under the jeep?
Perhaps one of the "funny" shaped mufflers similar to those in the new camaro could be made to fit somewhere.

 

[gavan]

That is the general idea. uncut axles and very high backspacing wheels. I don't want to have to mess with custom housings if I can help it.

Custom axles are cool, but expensive. Stock is always a better choice.

Rough measurements a 14" stroke shock won't fit under the rear wheel tub straight up. I would have to cant it way back.

Grab the sawzall, or have the bed made with taller wheel wells. We did Yager's rear by cutting out the entire floor and raising it 3 inches. Room for upper links (it gets crowded keeping it low), room for a little bigger shock, still a flat load floor. With longer links and keeping it low you actually get into the floor very quickly. My floor on the 7 is raised about 5 inches, and the upper links just barely kiss it on full compression.

Heck I get the sandblast thing just driving around on the gravel they put down on snowy roads around here. Even on the front its a concern. Follow people too close and after a few years the front end of the car will have bare metal showing.

? I have driven through some crazy grit in NM when they throw that crap on the interstate, but I guess I just dont see the "sandblasting" effect. Latest thread I read on Pirate the guy had some serious damage after just 2 days, I beat on my junk for a week straight and the worse shock paint scraping I got is when I ripped the wheel off. I swear some people are just more prone to certain problems.

The 2.0 thing is hopeful I guess. I'm not really after going super fast for hours on end over 3 foot whoops, but it is nice to be able to carry some speed on mild gravel roads and absorb the odd hit every now and again.

Get a 60! I found ball joint/kingpin strength is just as, if not more, important as the suspension. I have just had bad experiences with 2.0s.

So how are they getting those Carli Dodges to go so well in the desert with a single 2.5 on each wheel under a 7000+lb truck?

I bet they dont go as well as a Jeep on 2.5s... They use the spring to hold up the vehicle, and the shock to dampen the movement. Which is what you should be doing too. In a "good" suspension the coilover should be not much more than a coil holder with some additional dampening and the shock should be doing much of the work, at least thats what King keeps trying to tell us (maybe they want to sell more shocks? it does work better!). Carli also has the luxury of lots of testing and development to get the shims, oil and gas just right in those shocks. You either need a test and tune day or 2 with the shock manufacturer or a lot of patience to make your "generic" shocks work as well as their tuned ones... or you need more shock

I'm hopping for WAY less than 5500lbs! That Poison spider LJ was just over 4K with 60s, 39s, atlas, steel body, stock frame, etc.

I dont trust anyone's weights without a weight slip or seeing it on a scale. A lot of JKs and LJs are 5k+ with mostly stock axles. I think people weight them when before they are completely done, then add a couple heavy bumpers, a sheet of .25 steel for a skid, and fill it up with 50 gallons of expo gas Keeping it around 4k will take a lot of planning, and going minimalistic on bumpers, cages, etc. Not saying it can not be done, but I think you would be genuinely surprised if you weighed it just before you took off on a trip when it was completely done.

Really? rod ends full time with no cushion at all? This is not a KOH car....think 10,000 mile a year street jeep that does the other stuff.

I do not have any problems with my heims and just do not buy into the "cushion" thing. Maybe it is the ORIs, but I have never had a harshness issue. Squeaks a little though.

That being said, if it was a 10k a year street jeep that goes off road occasionally I would just run leafs, at least in the rear.

Not interested in full hydro for this rig at all. Why are people like Jesse Haines, BTF, and a few others trying to go back to a steering box for go fast if full hydro is THAT good? I have NEVER been in a full hydro rig that I would want to go 70 down the interstate all day....

Mine steers great! But I set the toe carefully and have spent some money on good money on components. They are going to steering boxes to get that extra little feel and feedback to go that extra little faster and win a race. Miller Motorsports still runs full hydro, did good enough for them last year, and pretty darn good this year! But I would avoid it for 10k+ road miles a year. 5k off road exploring miles, sure!

I am asking questions, not just busting your junk. Like me I think your coming more from the rock world crossing over to stuff that would see mild off road stuff but with many more miles off road. Thank you for your input and ideas.

Meh, I have been pasting on Pirate for 10+ years. It is going to take a lot more than that to hurt my feelings!



Here is what I did, in a nutshell. I think it is somewhat close to how you have progressed, but different areas of the country, maybe different overall goals.

First I got a Jeep. I liked it.

Then I got to looking at it and it had some issues. Rust, weak frame, no cage. So I made a frame, tied in a cage, put some really good leaf springs under it, spent some decent money on axles and motor and suspension, and thought I could make a neat dual purpose vehicle on it. I even had it on 35 Krawlers. (sound familiar?)

I ended up with a vehicle that did pretty good off road, but could not go everywhere. And I could drive it on the street, but it pretty much sucked with no room, no top, and usually no windshield. And crawling in and out of 5 points and suspension seats is kind of cool at the mall the first time, but it gets old. Quick.

I quickly realized that any compromise is, well, a compromise.

So I made the decision to split the difference. I made a really good (for me) street Jeep with conventional steering, stock axles, fuel efficient motor, leaf springs, tilt steering, just a simple piece of junk to drive on the street. It will go 90% of the places the first tube frame version of the CJ-7 would go off road, but it is 100% more capable of driving on road.

Then I went full retard on the CJ-7. 40 stickies, ORIs, custom axles, blah blah blah.

Love them both for completely different reasons, but I know I would never be happy with middle ground. You may be a better man than I.

 

[Metcalf]

Grab the sawzall, or have the bed made with taller wheel wells. We did Yager's rear by cutting out the entire floor and raising it 3 inches. Room for upper links (it gets crowded keeping it low), room for a little bigger shock, still a flat load floor. With longer links and keeping it low you actually get into the floor very quickly. My floor on the 7 is raised about 5 inches, and the upper links just barely kiss it on full compression.

That was with the rear tubs raised to the 1st bend on the tub. That is as high as I want to go with them.

Raising the rear floor is a decent idea. I wonder how that will work out. Once I get some better measurements from Aqualu I will lay it out and see what kind of difference it makes. I would probably have to spring for a custom tailgate but that shouldn't be a big deal....or just make my own.

? I have driven through some crazy grit in NM when they throw that crap on the interstate, but I guess I just dont see the "sandblasting" effect. Latest thread I read on Pirate the guy had some serious damage after just 2 days, I beat on my junk for a week straight and the worse shock paint scraping I got is when I ripped the wheel off. I swear some people are just more prone to certain problems.

Could be. I know my dodge and the Audi get blasted pretty hard over the winter. Pisses me off on the nice car...

Get a 60! I found ball joint/kingpin strength is just as, if not more, important as the suspension. I have just had bad experiences with 2.0s.

A 60 is the plan. I don't want to rip off a knuckle!

It is interesting about the 2.0 shocks. FOA has some affordable 2.5 stuff. I have a friend running them with mixed results but he has never really taken the time to play with the valving.

I bet they dont go as well as a Jeep on 2.5s... They use the spring to hold up the vehicle, and the shock to dampen the movement. Which is what you should be doing too. In a "good" suspension the coilover should be not much more than a coil holder with some additional dampening and the shock should be doing much of the work, at least thats what King keeps trying to tell us (maybe they want to sell more shocks? it does work better!). Carli also has the luxury of lots of testing and development to get the shims, oil and gas just right in those shocks. You either need a test and tune day or 2 with the shock manufacturer or a lot of patience to make your "generic" shocks work as well as their tuned ones... or you need more shock

I definetly WANT to play around with the valving. I would like to have a better understanding of how that works with my own two hands....

I dont trust anyone's weights without a weight slip or seeing it on a scale. A lot of JKs and LJs are 5k+ with mostly stock axles. I think people weight them when before they are completely done, then add a couple heavy bumpers, a sheet of .25 steel for a skid, and fill it up with 50 gallons of expo gas Keeping it around 4k will take a lot of planning, and going minimalistic on bumpers, cages, etc. Not saying it can not be done, but I think you would be genuinely surprised if you weighed it just before you took off on a trip when it was completely done.

It's not complete but pretty close.

I will be watching the weight where I can but I can't afford to get too exotic on aluminum Rockjock with aluminum knuckles or anything. I tend to build things fairly minimalistic and that tends to save a little weight. I will try and be efficient with brackets, bumpers, and skidplates to save weight. My Willys ended up under 3000lbs without using custom parts and all old iron parts. I was happy with that. I know I could shave weight in a lot of places for more money.

I do not have any problems with my heims and just do not buy into the "cushion" thing. Maybe it is the ORIs, but I have never had a harshness issue. Squeaks a little though.

Maybe not really cushion but vibration isolation maybe?

That being said, if it was a 10k a year street jeep that goes off road occasionally I would just run leafs, at least in the rear.

I thought pretty hard about just running leaves but I want to push my design and fab skills a bit. I think the airbag thing in the rear could work out pretty dang neat.

Meh, I have been pasting on Pirate for 10+ years. It is going to take a lot more than that to hurt my feelings!

I know, me too. Just trying to keep things low key fireside style.....

Love them both for completely different reasons, but I know I would never be happy with middle ground. You may be a better man than I.

yeah. I would have a hard time giving up my other toys. I like building so why not try something different. If done right I think it will be a great overall compromise that would keep me very happy for a while.....maybe.......

 

[locrwln]

Some really great ideas in this thread..

Here is a discussion on the metalcloak bushings, which seem like a good option for a street/trail rig.
(Ignore the JF BS)

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/how-metalcloak-duroflex-bushing-stacks-up-1482467/

Jack

 

[Barrows]

I know this has been brought up before, but I really think that stretching a tj to lj length would work out great for you. I know that the wheelwells are going to need to change but the pic's below might give you some ideas. Hell I wasn't looking into this and it is giving me ideas. :Wow1: I love the lj's but I hate the price tag.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep-hardcore-tech/1194114-stretched-my-tj-frame-today-3.html

 

[Metcalf]

I know this has been brought up before, but I really think that stretching a tj to lj length would work out great for you. I know that the wheelwells are going to need to change but the pic's below might give you some ideas. Hell I wasn't looking into this and it is giving me ideas. :Wow1: I love the lj's but I hate the price tag.

No question it would work, but for the amount of additional work for all other changes I want to make I don't think starting with a TJ is going to be worth it. I would rather spend the TJ base vehicle money on a fresh straight Aqualu tub and fix a lot of the issues I see with the TJ frame, tunnel, fuel tank, suspension, etc.

Either way I have to buy a longer top so that cost washes out.

I will admit that there is a lot of stuff about using the TJ cowl, heater, a/c, steering column, and brake assembly that I like.

 

[Barrows]

My thoughts are that maybe you can stretch a tj as a prototype and see if the idea will work. It would be really easy to flip after the conversion and may even help finance the aqualu build. But if your are looking at the aqualu bodies I have dreamed about using the body on the bottom of the page. This body is awesome The pricing however is not....:snorkel:

Custom Jeep TJ Bobbed Body
This is a custom body and is not a direct replacement body for the Jeep TJ model. The inside does not accept the factory Jeep TJ components (dash,
seats, etc.) and there are no provisions for the TJ windshield wiper motor
assembly.

- Inside still uses all CJ/ YJ components
- Lengthened 3" for Unlimited Hardtop
- Accept TJ Hood
- Accept TJ Windshield Frame
- Alterations to back of door jam for TJ Doors
- Raised inner wheel wells up 3-1/2"
- Wheel openings on rear quarter panels left uncut
- Overall length of body is 15" longer than CJ7/ YJ or TJ.

 

[jeepdreamer]

Well... I gotta admit that you've had me confused up until that last comment.
I tend to be in the K.I.S.S camp of stuff and the miser end of cheapness so your back and forth between wanting both was screwing me up. Want stock axles but willing to run way deep wheels? Want to keep the budget tight but not cutting the corners where $$ could be saved in exchange for time/effort. I've had kind of the tennis experience so far reading this thread...heehee! So... while I'm still stoked to see what you turn out (and now realizing you like the TJs dash design...I'll just opt to offer my idea.
Build your own frame to the length you want but that will accommodate an aftermarket Scrambler tub.Cut the wheel wells and center them on the 110ish length your after. Build the inner wells as you want them and go from there. Why? Electricity and registration. It will be much easier to title and register (and cheaper) an older vehicle. Emissions could be easier too. Plus, since the CJ has a simple, flat dash with only minimum electrical aspects you won't be splicing all kinds of stuff here and there. Some, yes... but not as many wires behind a CJ dash as a TJ! Add an aftermarket heat/ac setup and rock on.
As for the frame, you already are not a fan of the tj lowers. Why not design the new frame with the type of link setup YOU want, only to fit the CJ body mounts versus the TJ.
As for a top... the Supertop from Besttop is far better than the old CJ factory/Kayline snap top. There is also several companies making full or half hard tops of various design and quality... so the top thing is kinda a wash.
I'd just think a CJ would be simpler than a newer jeep, fit the wheelbase you want to it but leave the overall dimensions CJ8 for the top, and go all new and creative on the suspension and drive train.
Me... I'd keep it leaves and have air bag overloads.... but I'm not as hi-tech as you guys.

 

[Metcalf]

Yup, that is pretty much my dream tub also.

Honestly though, is starting with a custom tub costing say $5K really THAT much worse than starting with a donor vehicle that you pretty much don't end up using anything off of? I'm not saying that you couldn't use a lot of stuff from a stock vehicle, but honestly there really isn't much that I would use in this concept.

I am more interested in having a simple clean basic interior rather than a 'plastic' tj interior. I would be interested in seeing a few shots of JUST the TJ heater system installed on the firewall. As someone mentioned before the early ones where cable controlled and look pretty simple. I don't think that I am too interested in having AC because of some engine packaging concerns. It's a jeep. I can just take part of the top off. Overall I would lean toward more simple. The TJ heater system is a little more complex than the YJ version I think? Having the ability to have window and center vents would be kinda nice....mainly the window vents in the winter.

 

[Metcalf]

Well... I gotta admit that you've had me confused up until that last comment.
I tend to be in the K.I.S.S camp of stuff and the miser end of cheapness so your back and forth between wanting both was screwing me up. Want stock axles but willing to run way deep wheels? Want to keep the budget tight but not cutting the corners where $$ could be saved in exchange for time/effort. I've had kind of the tennis experience so far reading this thread...heehee! So... while I'm still stoked to see what you turn out (and now realizing you like the TJs dash design...I'll just opt to offer my idea.

Wait what?

I am trying to combine the maximum amount of performance out of a given dollar value.

The stock D60 axles housings from the 2002ish dodge work out very well. They are wide BUT you can run a deep backspacing wheel to get the width down back to a manageable level without having to pay for custom narrow D60 axles?

Pretty much every part I have selected is from the junkyard and commonly available for a decent price.

I don't like the TJ dash...

Build your own frame to the length you want but that will accommodate an aftermarket Scrambler tub.Cut the wheel wells and center them on the 110ish length your after. Build the inner wells as you want them and go from there. Why? Electricity and registration. It will be much easier to title and register (and cheaper) an older vehicle. Emissions could be easier too. Plus, since the CJ has a simple, flat dash with only minimum electrical aspects you won't be splicing all kinds of stuff here and there. Some, yes... but not as many wires behind a CJ dash as a TJ! Add an aftermarket heat/ac setup and rock on.

Maybe some of the thread posting is getting crossed up....

I feel the scrambler tub is too long for what I want regardless of wheelbase. At a 110" wheelbase there would be too much rear overhang in my opinion for what I want to do.

Registration doesn't really matter here in Colorado. You can title and register as a kit car no problem. It doesn't matter what year the vehicle appears to be.

Emissions is a non issue under the kit car laws in my area.

As for the frame, you already are not a fan of the tj lowers. Why not design the new frame with the type of link setup YOU want, only to fit the CJ body mounts versus the TJ.

That is basically what I have been saying? I don't want to use a TJ frame or body. I want to use a Aqualu body that will accept the LJ tops, TJ doors, and TJ windshield.

As for a top... the Supertop from Besttop is far better than the old CJ factory/Kayline snap top. There is also several companies making full or half hard tops of various design and quality... so the top thing is kinda a wash.

I really like the LJ frameless tops. Light, simple, and minimizes the bulk in the rear of the body.

I'd just think a CJ would be simpler than a newer jeep, fit the wheelbase you want to it but leave the overall dimensions CJ8 for the top, and go all new and creative on the suspension and drive train.

That is basically what I am talking about. The Aqualu tub is just 'looks' like a TJ/LJ top on the cowl, door opening, and rails. The rest of the tub is built to use YJ/CJ style stuff.

The only thing I want to use off the LJ is the top, windshield, and doors. Everything else will be different.

Me... I'd keep it leaves and have air bag overloads.... but I'm not as hi-tech as you guys.

I already have a bunch of rigs on leaves. I am looking to challenge myself a little more...

 

[Metcalf]

To clarify....

I think this was the comment that confused Jeepdreamer.

I will admit that there is a lot of stuff about using the TJ cowl, heater, a/c, steering column, and brake assembly that I like.

What I was trying to say was that I see the attraction in some of the parts from the TJ cowl to make some of the build process easier. I am not going to buy a complete vehicle to just get those few parts though most likely. I don't like the TJ dash itself, but some of the stuff under it is pretty neat. The TJ heater is probably better than the YJ unit. Having a complete cowl assembly to work from COULD be nice, but for what I am doing I don't think it is the right way to go.

 

[postalWagon]

Sounds like a trip to your friendly salvage yard

 

[Metcalf]

Sounds like a trip to your friendly salvage yard

Yup, or my favorite, car-part.com

Most of the major yards are pretty computerized these days and use to shipping stuff truck freight. You can also search by distance to find parts close....