Modding a Wrangler to Match Land Cruiser Reliability?

[toylandcruiser]

Personally I think its silly that we are arguing about this a) because its way off topic from the original question and b) we all know the most rugged vehicle ever made is a toyota.. The Hilux. I mean, why else would it be the "Scum of the world's" choice of ride all over the globe? :sombrero:

If they were driving jeeps, they'd be easy to stop

 

[twiisted71]

I suppose I read the topic of this thread the wrong way. I took reliability to mean something you could reasonably have a chance of doing some of the stuff seen being done by OLD LCs in the movies. Would I take a new LC (the 200 station wagon) or a "new" diesel FJ40 on a round the world excursion/expedition? After seeing new vehicles get "totalled" after a dunking because the entire electrical system becomes a nightmare. I want the least amount of things that can go wrong as I can. I don't need nor want ABS, TC, anti-roll active stability, theft deterrent immobilizers, "valet" power reducing keys, air bag/engine shut-offs, fuel impact shutoff breakers, and on and on. This is esptrue for an offroading rig. There are plenty of things to make a vehicle not work without having engineers design systems with that specific purpose into them.
Some need or want all the nanny features they can get. There are also others who'd prefer power windows and an auto tranny and every whizbang do-dad they can get. It is their money, more power to them. They are also SELDOM the person who has these vehicles at the touted 500K mile/25 yr mark. So yeah if I knew I'd never get stuck with it past 100K miles, I'd probably take a new vehicle for a daily driver provided I could get it optioned the way I like (I can't, I've checked). BUT it would not be my first choice if my life had to depend on it long term in adverse situations. Again that is my choice, not everyones. It has nothing to do with being a Toyota. In fact I drove a 1981 Toyota 4x4 for a bit (it had around 180K when I got it). I'd toss a spare distributor, alternator, and starter in the tool box and choose it even in its raggedy beat-down shape if I knew it'd see some seriously rough conditions over a new one. Like I said though, if I knew I'd be in phone range all the time and that I'd get rid of it by 100K miles, I'd pick a new one--bells, whistles, butt-warmers and all. But here in the real world, I gladly spend more than book value when I can find an older extra low mileage vehicle with a minimum of options THAT HASN'T BEEN MODIFIED. And that is just for dd duties. Anything I'm going to be out of touch in, I build from bumper to bumper.
When on boat forum and reliability topics came up I tried to "measure" what folks meant by reliable. I tend to think of jumping aboard and crossing the Gulf of Mexico in the summer-time when gauging how reliable I considered a rig, others point of view was based on a 200 acre mountain lake with dozens of boats around on a perfect sunny day with excellent cellular coverage and a SeaTow concession on site.

That is where I think some of the discrepancies lie in the attitudes shown in this thread. Some folks are looking at this as a my brand is better than yours. No one ever claimed a Wrangler was a HD grade vehicle. The question was how to make a Wrangler as "reliable" as the LC's reputation, not which was better in one way or another.
On a side note, my best friend had a mid-late '90's 4Runner and I remember being VERY impressed at how heavy and solid it seemed to feel. I always thought I'd like to get one of them to build up but alas finding a low mileage unit is like finding a bone stock Harley! Toys tend to be bought with the intention of putting lots of miles on like Harleys are bought to farkle.
I thought of "The Gods must be Crazy" types of situations. Those are what made the LC's rep. Bombing around in 3rd world countries where there were no roads long before the days of cell/sat phones. As has been pointed out, the cost of a new LC precludes their belonging to corporations or the more well-heeled individual. In the case of a corporation they are more likely to travel in pairs or more if in any danger of becoming stranded in an isolated area and the individual owners aren't likely to take their pride and joy out swamp crossing. Atleast not until it has enough miles/time under its timing belt to have reduced its value to the point that its no more "foolish" to thrash it than it would be a Wrangler!

 

[Scott Brady]

The question was how to make a Wrangler as "reliable" as the LC's reputation, not which was better in one way or another.

It is not possible.

However, I have had excellent luck with my Jeeps, the Wranglers in particular. If you want a Wrangler to last 500,000 miles without major repairs, it is just not possible. However, Wranglers are absolutely reliable to 120-150,000 miles. Toyota takes a different approach than any other manufacture. They spend an enormous amount of time and money on systems, process and supplier integration with the quality systems.

If you like Jeeps, drive them and enjoy them. Who cares if you need to buy one twice as often- most people don't keep Land Cruisers for 500,000 miles anyways.

 

[MTSN]

Would I take a new LC (the 200 station wagon) or a "new" diesel FJ40 on a round the world excursion/expedition? After seeing new vehicles get "totalled" after a dunking because the entire electrical system becomes a nightmare.....There are also others who'd prefer power windows and an auto tranny and every whizbang do-dad they can get.

Where have you heard about a 200 series getting totaled after a water crossing because of the electrical system? I think it's a widespread misconception that modern vehicles are so sensitive that you can't go through a simple water crossing without irreparably damaging it.

Also automatic transmissions and power windows haven't been considered whizbang do-dads for several decades, and I have yet to see a situation where they (or heated seats for that matter - all 3 of our vehicles have them) will ever keep you from making it home if they have the unlikely failure in the field. Auto transmissions these days are extremely robust, and in some applications can take more abuse than a manual transmission - without the fear of burning up a clutch from slipping it for hours going over rough trails.

I think this thread is comical and even silly since the replies have digressed so much from a simple question that has been answered soundly from the experts who have experience with both.

 

[Viggen]

Everyone on this thread would likely drive a 200 series if they could afford it. I would.

I would not. Give me a 60 series and a few thousand to update the interior seats. Done.

 

[DaJudge]

I've put a million+ miles on Toyota's, driven them around the world twice, raced the Baja 1000, Vegas to Reno, competed in competitive rock-crawling and own Toyota's ranging from 1965 (Stout) to 2008 (URJ200) and have never had a single failed head gasket. I sell & install Land Cruiser parts to hundreds of Land Cruiser owners each week, I sell more 1157 bulbs in day than I do head gaskets in a year. I think you've created a statistic in your head

The 3.8's were failing in the first year... If/when a Toyota head gasket would have failed in that time frame, they too would have "fixed it" no? The only Land Cruiser that perhaps has a head gasket preventative maintenance mantra is the FZJ80 (93-97) and failure rates of head gaskets are in the 5% range and in the 175-225k miles range. The Jeep 4.0L was known to have it's own issues... Land Cruiser owners just fix them before they have to be towed home

I am sorry Kurt but you are wrong. I am glad you have had good luck but Toyota does have a consistent problem with head gaskets. 2.2, 3.0, 3.4 and the 4.0.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-ge...ad-gasket.html
This is just one out of many threads! Also spend some time searching the brake booster, caliper and rooter issues.
I really wanted a 4th Gen 4runner but the Toyota Tax is not justified when they are not anymore reliable then other vehicles.
I only responded to this thread because it is ridiculous and even irresponsible to constantly tell people "Toyotas never fail". I have seen you Toyota zealots recommend that someone buy a 15 year old Cruiser with 190000 miles on it over some other vehicle with 40,000 on it. And that is truly stupid!

The Land Cruiser is a very nice, well built vehicle, but for $85000 it better be!

 

[Dan Grec]

I have seen you Toyota zealots recommend that someone buy a 15 year old Cruiser with 190000 miles on it over some other vehicle with 40,000 on it.

I keep a close eye on Overlander forums and Facebook groups since my PanAm trip, and because of my upcoming Africa lap.

I find it fascinating the majority of people are driving vehicles that are 20+ years old with 150,000+ miles (usually Land Cruisers or Land Rovers), and all of them have the maintenance issues on the road you would expect from a vehicle that age - needs entirely new breaks, new radiator, rubber bushings wearing out, etc. etc.
Even the "bullet proof" 60/70 series and defender 90/110 need this work when they are that age, and getting those parts in foreign lands is neither easy nor cheap, contrary to what people might have you believe.

I've only ever heard of a couple of vehicles driving the entire length of the PanAm without a single mechanical issue.

They were all less than 10 years old and had less than 100,000 miles on the clock. They were also all Jeep Wranglers.

When looking for a vehicle for my Africa lap I decided I could go out of my way to get a late 1980's Defender 110 or 70 series LC, and constantly wrench on the things you expect of a vehicle that age, or for similar money I could buy a ~7 year old Jeep Wrangler and have zero problems again like last time.

-Dan

 

[toylandcruiser]

I am sorry Kurt but you are wrong. I am glad you have had good luck but Toyota does have a consistent problem with head gaskets. 2.2, 3.0, 3.4 and the 4.0.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-ge...ad-gasket.html
This is just one out of many threads! Also spend some time searching the brake booster, caliper and rooter issues.
I really wanted a 4th Gen 4runner but the Toyota Tax is not justified when they are not anymore reliable then other vehicles.
I only responded to this thread because it is ridiculous and even irresponsible to constantly tell people "Toyotas never fail". I have seen you Toyota zealots recommend that someone buy a 15 year old Cruiser with 190000 miles on it over some other vehicle with 40,000 on it. And that is truly stupid!

The Land Cruiser is a very nice, well built vehicle, but for $85000 it better be!

Wow you're wrong. The 4.0 only had issues the first year or so. I am on that site. The 3.4 doesn't have head gasket issues. Considering that the head gasket is a maintenance item. It makes it a not brainer. When the mileage comes up change it and move on. Not that big of a deal. Rooter issues was only a few years on the 4th gen as well. Don't take a single issue and blankety pass it onto everything else. Toyotas are far more reliable than anything else. I love how you jeep guys cry about the "Toyota tax" but never say anything about the exact same wrangler tax. It says something about the vehicle when you can sell a used one for good money. If I can get a disco for 1500 bucks and the same year cruiser for 4 times that. That says something. It's amazing that he average Toyota on Craigslist has well over 200000 miles and the average jeep is around 100000. I wonder why. I bought my 69 with 247000 on it and have over 300000 miles. It's way more solid today than the 81 Cherokee I had as a first vehicle. Park them side by side and the quality will be night and day difference. My 05 4Runner with 125000 miles is completely rattle free. I've never had an American made car that had more than 100000 miles not have some rattles and creeks in it. Also FYI. Toyota stands by there product. If an issue pops up they fix it. Most American companies don't do that. Look at gm with the ignition switch. They were more interested in saving 40 cents per vehicle than they were in their product. The result was lives lost.

 

[KlausVanWinkle]

Wow. That got off topic. I thought we were on Wayalife for a second there.

I've owned both vehicles in question and have similar opinions to what Scott and Kurt have expressed. I actually made a comparison thread years ago when I first considered replacing my 100-series with a Rubicon. That wasn't the intention of this thread. The intention was to pin point failure points on the Jeep because the sample size of 1 from Ronnie Dahl's videos seemed to be validating that idea that they Jeep was less reliable than its Japanese trip-mates.

As others have said, it all comes down to intended usage. My 100-series was set up for an around the world trip I'd never take. I replaced it with the Jeep because I wanted something more suited to North American offroading in stock form. As Brady has written many times, North America has a lot of very technical trails accessed by nice paved highways with plenty of gas stations. The original question wasn't about longevity as much as known issues. My personal thinking was that I can by a 10 year old Land Cruiser for $40,000 or a new Rubicon for $40,000. So I assume that some of the reliability issues would even out by then. It's just which end of the depreciation scale you want to jump into. My wife was sick of me maintaining and modifying the Land Cruiser. So the appeal was fewer mods to make the Rubicon as capable/trip ready as my 100. When I stepped back and took a realistic look at my usage, I was taking 2 normal sized adults and a dog to remote camp sites. Not crossing the empty quarter with 2000lbs of cargo. Hence why I have a Jeep now. Still love both. And will probably own another land cruiser eventually. But I haven't dipped my tow in that Land Rover pool yet :sombrero:

 

[cruiseroutfit]

The only Land Cruiser that perhaps has a head gasket preventative maintenance mantra is the FZJ80

I am sorry Kurt but you are wrong. I am glad you have had good luck but Toyota does have a consistent problem with head gaskets. 2.2, 3.0, 3.4 and the 4.0.

2.2 - Not a Land Cruiser motor
3.slow - Not a Land Cruiser motor
3.4 - Not a Land Cruiser motor
4.0 - Also not a Land Cruiser motor (though they did appear in some uber rare special edition offerings)

This thread however, is about a Land Cruiser

I'm certainly not saying Toyota head gaskets don't fail, take the 3.slow for example. There are two types of 3.slow owners, those that have had a head gasket replaced and those that are lying about it. I'll firmly stand by my comment, Land Cruiser head gaskets are not common. Again the 1FZFE has more reported than probably all others combined and even that is a somewhat rare occurance happening with 15-20 year old vehicles and 200k+.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...I've only ever heard of a couple of vehicles driving the entire length of the PanAm without a single mechanical issue.

They were all less than 10 years old and had less than 100,000 miles on the clock. They were also all Jeep Wranglers.

I'll offer you some others to have heard of... The entire E7 fleet consisting of 4 Land Cruisers, zero issues across the globe let alone the PanAm. I have no doubt a newer Jeep could make the journey and do well at it particularly for a couple of people in each rig and considerate packing. But I also think one could drive the entire length of the PanAm (road proper) in a Rav4 and also have zero issues

 

[Dan Grec]

I'll offer you some others to have heard of... The entire E7 fleet consisting of 4 Land Cruisers, zero issues across the globe let alone the PanAm. I have no doubt a newer Jeep could make the journey and do well at it particularly for a couple of people in each rig and considerate packing. But I also think one could drive the entire length of the PanAm (road proper) in a Rav4 and also have zero issues

Hey Kurt,

Actually, E7 had trouble with the A/C in Chile - it's in the videos

I wasn't trying to compare a new(ish) Land Cruiser to a new(ish) Jeep Wrangler.

I was saying I find it strange the conventional wisdom is to take a 20-30 year old LC or D110, which wind up costing the same, and having many more problems than a new(ish) Jeep Wrangler.

-Dan

 

[toylandcruiser]

Hey Kurt,

Actually, E7 had trouble with the A/C in Chile - it's in the videos

I wasn't trying to compare a new(ish) Land Cruiser to a new(ish) Jeep Wrangler.

I was saying I find it strange the conventional wisdom is to take a 20-30 year old LC or D110, which wind up costing the same, and having many more problems than a new(ish) Jeep Wrangler.

-Dan

Well my 60 with a crap ton of miles is far from a maintenance nightmare. Being on a land cruiser specific board (mud) I would argue that older cruisers have tons of issues. I'm not seeing it on the board.

 

[Dan Grec]

Well my 60 with a crap ton of miles is far from a maintenance nightmare. Being on a land cruiser specific board (mud) I would argue that older cruisers have tons of issues. I'm not seeing it on the board.

I'm not saying an older cruiser is a "maintenance nightmare", I'm just saying I've never seen an overlander drive one tens of thousands of miles in the developing world without any issues.

Do you know of anyone that has?

-Dan

 

[toylandcruiser]

I'm not saying an older cruiser is a "maintenance nightmare", I'm just saying I've never seen an overlander drive one tens of thousands of miles in the developing world without any issues.

Do you know of anyone that has?

-Dan

That's a straw man argument. Any vehicle requires maintenance. But if you were to go to Australia or Africa. You will still see old cruisers living their life in off road excursions.