More design ideas/questions

[Mickldo]

Mick. Had to laugh when I saw the route they took in Aus. Goes like this > A couple of French guys rock up in Perth surely midsummer. Head North up through the goldfields, Meekathara, Pilbara and hit the beach for a swim at Port Headland. Temps probably high 40's. They go "Nah. Bugger this." and head south instead of hitting the Northern Territory in the troppo season. Don't blame them at all for turning around. Looks like they got the map and asked someone for the coolest place in Aus which was Tassie and made a bee line for it back across the Nullabor till the season wore on a bit. Tell me if I'm wrong.

Can remember doing that road up the West Coast without aircon in an XC panelvan one December. Air was so hot you had to travel with the windows UP or it would just burn your face. Have been hotter but not with that humidity thrown in. That's tough country were they turned around, hey?

It was mid May '07 when we met them at Purnie Bore. I don't know their reasoning behind their route but I know they were planning on doing the CSR next, up to the Kimberlies, across the Northern Territory and the Gulf, up the Cape and then down the East Coast to Sydney before shipping across to travel North and South America.

 

[DontPanic42]

Mick If you want I will do a thread on diesel water heating/plumbining options in a week or so. I've set them up at least 6 or 7 different ways so I'll post something up if you (or anyone else) want. Let me know.

I know that there are other brands on the market such as Dometic and Wallis but I have only used Webasto. I get on really well with the staff and we always catch up at the big capming shows. While we don't have anything like the experience with these systems that guys living in cold countries do, Webasto in Australia has been very dedicated to promoting and developing their products in Aus and I can tell you that they give great tech support. They are happy to bounce suggested coolant circuit diagrams back and forward all day till we are both happy with a final solution for a new system/package. We tend to push the boundaries a bit rather than take an easy option and they are really accommodating.

Looking forward to reading what y'all have to say.

 

[whatcharterboat]

Diesel HWS

Mick, Tom, Bruce am putting a thread up now on Webasto diesel Hot water.

 

[ntsqd]

Thom, first optional insulation for soft sided pop tops, then personal "pic posting " tech support and now this. What is you do at work again???????????? Whatever it is you're worth more money.

New job, same desk as the old job. The change is rooted in politics of some sort. My job is to design, manufacture, or over-see the manufacture of all Test Cell components as well as occasionally designing prototype parts.
New (not very descriptive web page): http://ecomotors.com/
Old:http://propulsiontech.com/

Thom would the commute be that bad??LOL

About 7500 miles. The scenery would be nice though.......

Hmm......Hadn't thought about the compatibility of the coolant and the QD connectors, will have to research that one.

I've no idea if this is an issue or not, but it should be looked into first. Some common o-ring polymers aren't too happy with engine coolant. Others don't care.

Do you have diagrams, links, photos, anything to show us more about your gensets? I like the idea of the diesel for coolant, I would like to look into that a bit more.

See the Propulsion Tech link above. These are a long ways from being available, and unfortunately they have been moved down the priority list. Not as far as the MicroSol, but far enough......

I have a home made copper heat exchanger fitted to my 80 that I might be able convert to a coolant/diesel heat exchanger to do like Thom suggested.

Be careful there, copper and diesel don't mix well. For short term you can get away with it, but for long term copper catalyzes sludge formation in the diesel. BT, DT.

http://www.ryco.com.au/PDF/Accessories/Quick%20Release%20Couplings.pdf

These are the couplings I was thinking of but yeah they are only for oils. I might have to go for a diesel heat exchanger if I want to hook it up to the motor.

I do not recall the specifics of Buna-N and being Sunday I'm 42 miles from my reference that would tell me if Buna-N is compatible with diesel or not. I've been told that certain platings are no good in diesel. Sorry, I don't have any more information than that. I use plated fittings of all sorts in the Test Cell, but none of that is very long term. Stainless would be the safe call.

 

[Mickldo]

New job, same desk as the old job. The change is rooted in politics of some sort. My job is to design, manufacture, or over-see the manufacture of all Test Cell components as well as occasionally designing prototype parts.
New (not very descriptive web page): http://ecomotors.com/
Old:http://propulsiontech.com/


About 7500 miles. The scenery would be nice though.......


I've no idea if this is an issue or not, but it should be looked into first. Some common o-ring polymers aren't too happy with engine coolant. Others don't care.


See the Propulsion Tech link above. These are a long ways from being available, and unfortunately they have been moved down the priority list. Not as far as the MicroSol, but far enough......
Be careful there, copper and diesel don't mix well. For short term you can get away with it, but for long term copper catalyzes sludge formation in the diesel. BT, DT.

I do not recall the specifics of Buna-N and being Sunday I'm 42 miles from my reference that would tell me if Buna-N is compatible with diesel or not. I've been told that certain platings are no good in diesel. Sorry, I don't have any more information than that. I use plated fittings of all sorts in the Test Cell, but none of that is very long term. Stainless would be the safe call.

WOW. Awesome stuff you work on. Very cool.

I am thinking now that it might be easier to leave the engine coolant part of the hot water system off. I prefer to keep the vehicles main operating systems as close to stock as I can anyway, you know, K.I.S.S. and OEM is best and all that stuff.

 

[Mickldo]

Do you reckon four of these slides per side slide out module would be enough to support the module?

I reckon there must be better mechanisms available but worst comes to worst these might be OK. I have a couple of pairs of them on my sliding drawers in the back of my 80 and they work great on that but the module will be a lot bigger. I am guessing approx 2m long x 1m high x 1m deep so it will be fairly decent.

 

[ntsqd]

Thanks! It is interesting work.

FWIW my Parker O-ring handbook says that the Nitrile (Buna-N) O-rings listed as being used in the previously linked hydraulic QD's is "Satisfactory" (their highest rating) when used with Ethylene Glycol or with Water, but "Doubtful (sometimes OK for static seal)" (their second lowest rating) when used with Propylene Glycol.

Those slides have a footnote saying "Not to be used to support Humans" or words to that effect. Have a look at the guides that Rob Gray built for Wot II using clusters of sealed bearings and having structural shapes roll through them. I see this concept as being more likely to have the load carrying capacity needed.
Some CNC machining centers use Turcite bushing type bearings rather than rolling elements. Classically they slide on box or 'T' sections and all of the bits are custom. A similar, but off the shelf option is to use "Frelon Plain-Bearing Guide Blocks and Rails" from one of any number of industrial automation suppliers. Have a look at the bottom of page 1071 at McMaster.com. The options on pages 1072 & 1073 may work as well. The odd X/Box extrusion shown on page 1073 is an 80/20 product.

I see two potential problems with pop-outs used in Overland Travel. The first is the the size of the hole in the wall leading to structural problems in the 'box'. This can likely be over-come, but it will take a considered approach. The second is sealing out dust. I friend has a typical U.S. travel trailer with a pop-out and he complains of dust and road grime inside a trailer that rarely ventures off pavement. What ever it is they did isn't enough. For dusty Overland conditions I think some sort of flexible boot or accordion bellows will be required. Much like how the sides of a pop-top function.

 

[Lynn]

I don’t know much about the engineering of slide-outs, but wanted to chime in with what I do know…

My father has built and repaired several campers over the years. He’s currently rebuilding his 28’ 5th wheel from the axles up. He originally talked about incorporating a slide-out, and I bought him a book from the RV Conversions site about designing slide-outs. I looked through it a little, and got the impression that it has some good info, but not enough.

Also, there’s a site, Chad’s Projects, where he details his 5th wheel build, and has s specific page r.e. how to build a slide-out

I talked to a guy here in town that has been renting out his personal motor homes for something like 15 years, and has used several different ones over the years. His current one has a slide-out, and he told me that he wouldn’t buy another with a slide-out because if it is parked slightly off level the slide-out will jump off the track. This from normal RV usage (paved roads to campgrounds).

ActionMobil has some models with slide-outs, so apparently it can be done, but it would take a lot more engineering for a slide-out on an offroad rig, then for a normal RV…

ADDITED:
I think the 'tilt-out' that member jayshapiro incoporated into Eco-roamer is a great way to increase living space w/o increasing 'traveling size.' IIRC, his is intended to be a 'guest room,' for occasional use. From an engineering perspective, it's s simpler design, and the permanently-attached 'tent' would really help eliminate the dust problems that ntsqd mentioned.

 

[Mickldo]

Thanks! It is interesting work.

FWIW my Parker O-ring handbook says that the Nitrile (Buna-N) O-rings listed as being used in the previously linked hydraulic QD's is "Satisfactory" (their highest rating) when used with Ethylene Glycol or with Water, but "Doubtful (sometimes OK for static seal)" (their second lowest rating) when used with Propylene Glycol.

Those slides have a footnote saying "Not to be used to support Humans" or words to that effect. Have a look at the guides that Rob Gray built for Wot II using clusters of sealed bearings and having structural shapes roll through them. I see this concept as being more likely to have the load carrying capacity needed.
Some CNC machining centers use Turcite bushing type bearings rather than rolling elements. Classically they slide on box or 'T' sections and all of the bits are custom. A similar, but off the shelf option is to use "Frelon Plain-Bearing Guide Blocks and Rails" from one of any number of industrial automation suppliers. Have a look at the bottom of page 1071 at McMaster.com. The options on pages 1072 & 1073 may work as well. The odd X/Box extrusion shown on page 1073 is an 80/20 product.

I see two potential problems with pop-outs used in Overland Travel. The first is the the size of the hole in the wall leading to structural problems in the 'box'. This can likely be over-come, but it will take a considered approach. The second is sealing out dust. I friend has a typical U.S. travel trailer with a pop-out and he complains of dust and road grime inside a trailer that rarely ventures off pavement. What ever it is they did isn't enough. For dusty Overland conditions I think some sort of flexible boot or accordion bellows will be required. Much like how the sides of a pop-top function.

Thanks for that Thom.

That information on the o-rings is good to know.

Those links have opened my mind up to a whole new range of stuff I didn't know was even available. I wonder who would sell them in OZ........

Yeah I know there are going to be lots of potential problems with the slideouts on an off road camper so that's why I'm asking the questions now before I spend a dollar or lift a spanner.

The holes in the side of the canopy for the slide out will be the same size as the door openings of the gullwing canopies we make at work. We have built dozens of them before and they have done lots of miles off road with no problems to the canopy. If I do the slideouts my main concern will be supporting their weight on whatever slides I end up using. I was planning on adding 50mm x 50mm ally box section framework to the inside of the canopy for extra strength so hopefully that will be enough.

To keep the dust out I was thinking about using the same type of water track and seals that we use at work. I'd have to do a double seal set up on the outer face to get the door working how I want it to. For the inside seal (for when the slideout is open) I was thinking of making a mirrored similar seal on the inside. While the slideout is being slid there won't be any seal but I don't think that will matter. I could always add a brush arrangement in there between the seals to give a bit of extra protection.

 

[Mickldo]

I don’t know much about the engineering of slide-outs, but wanted to chime in with what I do know…

My father has built and repaired several campers over the years. He’s currently rebuilding his 28’ 5th wheel from the axles up. He originally talked about incorporating a slide-out, and I bought him a book from the RV Conversions site about designing slide-outs. I looked through it a little, and got the impression that it has some good info, but not enough.

Also, there’s a site, Chad’s Projects, where he details his 5th wheel build, and has s specific page r.e. how to build a slide-out

I talked to a guy here in town that has been renting out his personal motor homes for something like 15 years, and has used several different ones over the years. His current one has a slide-out, and he told me that he wouldn’t buy another with a slide-out because if it is parked slightly off level the slide-out will jump off the track. This from normal RV usage (paved roads to campgrounds).

ActionMobil has some models with slide-outs, so apparently it can be done, but it would take a lot more engineering for a slide-out on an offroad rig, then for a normal RV…

ADDITED:
I think the 'tilt-out' that member jayshapiro incoporated into Eco-roamer is a great way to increase living space w/o increasing 'traveling size.' IIRC, his is intended to be a 'guest room,' for occasional use. From an engineering perspective, it's s simpler design, and the permanently-attached 'tent' would really help eliminate the dust problems that ntsqd mentioned.

Thanks for the reply and the links Lynn.

The slideouts on mine will only be pretty small compared to most standard RV ones. They will only basically house a fridge/freezer, sink, stove and a bit of storage. The other side will be just storage for all the other stuff that always gets dragged along. They will only have to slide out enough to give me enough room for a double bed inside.

I wonder if those electric motor powered rack an pinion slides are a standard RV type part. They might help overcome the worry I was having about the slides going in at uneven rates and getting bound up.

 

[Mickldo]

Tray top campers are pretty big here in OZ.

Here are a couple links

http://www.campertrailers.org/slide_ons.htm - good list of most of the campers.

http://www.gadabout.com.au/ - I helped build the gold prototype model, check the gallery.

http://www.adventurecampers.com.au/camper_trailer_traytop.htm - I like the swing out kitchen and low bed height on this one.

http://www.heaslipcampers.com/page.asp?parentid=3&parent2id=13 - another good side kitchen model

http://trayon.com/main.php - we used to have one of these on a Defender 130 ute at the 4x4 hire place I used to work.

 

[Mickldo]

While going through that page of links I found these cool sites.

http://www.innovan.com.au/ - I think most of ExPo has seen this one before but I still like it

http://www.outbackcampers.com.au/tray_topper.htm - I like this one too

http://www.eggyolkcampers.com.au/ - This one is just funny, LOL

 

[Mickldo]

Speaking of keeping dust out.......

The gold cruiser on http://www.gadabout.com.au/ had a tiny little Donaldson air filter off a small tractor complete with small Donaldson pre-cleaner hooked up to a little blower to pressurise the camper.

By having an exhaust fan as well that can be closed off for traveling on dirt roads and opened while sleeping quite a fair bit of ventilation could be achieved.

 

[ntsqd]

Search "Linear Actuators", quite common in automation and in the suspension of some hot rods. Linear driveway gate openers are sometimes 24VDC if you have that available. If the slides work well I can see only one such actuator being needed.

 

[whatcharterboat]

Linear Actuators

Mick
Plenty of linear actuators available in 12V here and loots of options with them too such as mine spec, heavy duty/ weather protection, current limiting stops, brackets. clevis ends etc. Let me know if you can't find anything suitable.

John