Mudless "mud terrains" for expedition driving?
- Thread starter ashooter
- Start date
R_Lefebvre
Expedition Leader
I tend to think vendors (of any product) tend to find a reason to bad mouth any product they don't carry. But that's just me. You know, go talk to a Cooper tire dealer, and they'll tell you why BFG's are bad. 
"Don't ask the barber if you need a haircut."
Seems like the ST are almost the perfect compromise tire EXCEPT for the fact that the tread is kinda narrow compared to the carcass? I can't believe how much the ones in the photos were deforming. I don't think I'll ever run less than 20psi.
"Don't ask the barber if you need a haircut."
Seems like the ST are almost the perfect compromise tire EXCEPT for the fact that the tread is kinda narrow compared to the carcass? I can't believe how much the ones in the photos were deforming. I don't think I'll ever run less than 20psi.
Guinness44
Adventurer
10 years ago, on the Burb we did have issues with the cooper made tires.
A Burb is a heavy truck.
BFG, has a great track record for us, balance very well. MTs or similar are the ones, noise just doesnt matter compared to no forward go in some mud. I have had ATs in mud, they turn to doughnuts, and iceskates. First hand at an event I saw the difference, the ATs had trouble, the MTs kept going (same trucktype).
The pictures look like may be try 2 psi, more next trip, and may be more yet. You could always air down to this on the picture if youre just in trouble. Certainly we have had our tires look that bulged on a obstacle before, when the whole truck is literally on one wheel. And amazing, touch wood, so far, so good.
Despite contactpatch, and ridesofteness, airing down help puncture resistance (to a point). An Aussie 4WD magazine had an article, about running over sharp stuff with different psi. And the aired down tire didnt get poaked, but folded over the object.
A Burb is a heavy truck.
BFG, has a great track record for us, balance very well. MTs or similar are the ones, noise just doesnt matter compared to no forward go in some mud. I have had ATs in mud, they turn to doughnuts, and iceskates. First hand at an event I saw the difference, the ATs had trouble, the MTs kept going (same trucktype).
The pictures look like may be try 2 psi, more next trip, and may be more yet. You could always air down to this on the picture if youre just in trouble. Certainly we have had our tires look that bulged on a obstacle before, when the whole truck is literally on one wheel. And amazing, touch wood, so far, so good.
Despite contactpatch, and ridesofteness, airing down help puncture resistance (to a point). An Aussie 4WD magazine had an article, about running over sharp stuff with different psi. And the aired down tire didnt get poaked, but folded over the object.
Redline
Likes to Drive and Ride
Regarding the deformation of the Coopers yesterday.
-They were very low 13-14-psi (18-psi is probably good for these tires)
-soft tire casing/design
-heavy rig (5,500-lbs) almost 50-50% front to rear
-most of the pictures with the wild deformation ARE with much of the weight on one point while posed on a rock, tree branch, or from forced articulation.
The construction of the tire and the width/contact pressure surely make a big difference. When I had Toyo MT 285/75 & 265/75, I would have to go to 8-10-psi to get them to deform/conform nicely, even on a heavier truck. Even at those pressures they still didn’t look like or ride like these Coopers STs.
-They were very low 13-14-psi (18-psi is probably good for these tires)
-soft tire casing/design
-heavy rig (5,500-lbs) almost 50-50% front to rear
-most of the pictures with the wild deformation ARE with much of the weight on one point while posed on a rock, tree branch, or from forced articulation.
The construction of the tire and the width/contact pressure surely make a big difference. When I had Toyo MT 285/75 & 265/75, I would have to go to 8-10-psi to get them to deform/conform nicely, even on a heavier truck. Even at those pressures they still didn’t look like or ride like these Coopers STs.
R_Lefebvre said:
I rarely run more than 20psi on either of my Jeeps, and the one with 37" Boggers, 20psi is highway pressure. Off road I usually run 13 psi in the Boggers, and if facing mud, I go down to 8psi. For deep sand, even less.
You have to be wiling to experiment to see what the differences really are, but of course, this requires a way to re-inflate on the trail.
R_Lefebvre
Expedition Leader
Out of curiousity, are yours the load range C, D or E. I've got the E's myself. I think that makes a difference too?
Airing up again is a problem for me until I get a portable compressor. Well, I do carry a small cheap tire inflator. But the time to reinflate just one of these truck tires will probably exceed it's MTBF. :yikes:
Airing up again is a problem for me until I get a portable compressor. Well, I do carry a small cheap tire inflator. But the time to reinflate just one of these truck tires will probably exceed it's MTBF. :yikes:
Life_in_4Lo
Explorer
tire 'deforming' looks normal to me. you have all the weight on the corner in the pics.
I have similar pics with the same truck and MTR's. The MTR's deform the same way, it's the way it's suppossed to work!:rally_guys:
I have similar pics with the same truck and MTR's. The MTR's deform the same way, it's the way it's suppossed to work!:rally_guys:
R_Lefebvre
Expedition Leader
Yeah, I know they're supposed to do that. I think the concern is that the S/T's don't have ANY tread on the sidewall, so you're really laying down a part of the tire that doesn't have much protection, and is potentially dangerous.
Redline
Likes to Drive and Ride
Toyo M/T 255/85R16!!!
I was tire shopping today and called one of my local Les Schwab stores. I learned that Toyo is now making their Open Country M/T in 255/85R16! I have said in the past that if Toyo ever made their M/T in a 255/85R16 I would buy two sets; I was only half joking, one set will be fine.
Con:
-What I don't like about the Toyo M/T is that they are a very stiff tire (at least the 285/75 & 265/75 I have owned). The rugged construction and sidewalls just aren't the most flexible. This makes the tires ride firmer with a given amount of load and air in them, and they are also much less flexible at a given PSI when off-highway. My experience is that to get these tires to really conform one needs to dump the air pressure.
-I'm being told they are load-range-E, not "D" like most other 255/85s. I prefer the softer ride of load-range-D.
-Expensive
Pro:
-When lots of air is let out the sidewall folds over and will flex and the beefy lugs and tough sidewalls can take some wear and abuse.
-Relatively quiet for a mud-terrain
-Cut & Chip resistant compound
-Balance well with little weight and run nice and smooth down the highway
There is little doubt in my mind that I will try a set, it's only a matter of how soon.
This is another great addition to the 255/85 offerings, and a great option for those that want or need a very heavy-duty, off-highway capable tire.
I called Toyo customer service directly to get the specifications listed below.
Toyo Open County M/T 255/85R16E specs:
Overall diameter: 33.5 (how's that for a tall skinny tire!)
Overall width: 10.2
Static loaded Radius: 15.6
Wheel Width: 6.5-8 (7.0 measured rim width)
E-load-range: 3,415 @ 80-psi
Revolutions per mile: 619
Weight: 60-lbs
Tread Depth: 19/32"
Speed Rating: P (93-mph)
ashooter, though these are going to be as expensive if not more than the Toyo M55, I prefer the Toyo MT over the M55 and would strongly suggest you consider them if you are willing to spend the money.
I was tire shopping today and called one of my local Les Schwab stores. I learned that Toyo is now making their Open Country M/T in 255/85R16! I have said in the past that if Toyo ever made their M/T in a 255/85R16 I would buy two sets; I was only half joking, one set will be fine.
Con:
-What I don't like about the Toyo M/T is that they are a very stiff tire (at least the 285/75 & 265/75 I have owned). The rugged construction and sidewalls just aren't the most flexible. This makes the tires ride firmer with a given amount of load and air in them, and they are also much less flexible at a given PSI when off-highway. My experience is that to get these tires to really conform one needs to dump the air pressure.
-I'm being told they are load-range-E, not "D" like most other 255/85s. I prefer the softer ride of load-range-D.
-Expensive
Pro:
-When lots of air is let out the sidewall folds over and will flex and the beefy lugs and tough sidewalls can take some wear and abuse.
-Relatively quiet for a mud-terrain
-Cut & Chip resistant compound
-Balance well with little weight and run nice and smooth down the highway
There is little doubt in my mind that I will try a set, it's only a matter of how soon.
This is another great addition to the 255/85 offerings, and a great option for those that want or need a very heavy-duty, off-highway capable tire.
I called Toyo customer service directly to get the specifications listed below.
Toyo Open County M/T 255/85R16E specs:
Overall diameter: 33.5 (how's that for a tall skinny tire!)
Overall width: 10.2
Static loaded Radius: 15.6
Wheel Width: 6.5-8 (7.0 measured rim width)
E-load-range: 3,415 @ 80-psi
Revolutions per mile: 619
Weight: 60-lbs
Tread Depth: 19/32"
Speed Rating: P (93-mph)
ashooter, though these are going to be as expensive if not more than the Toyo M55, I prefer the Toyo MT over the M55 and would strongly suggest you consider them if you are willing to spend the money.
ashooter
Adventurer
Redline (aka "Imelda"),
:victory: :birthday.sml: :clapsmile :jump:
Now, if I can only find the dog-gone things!!!
I had narrowed it down to either the BFG KM or the BFG KM, with a passing interest in the Multi-Mile "Wild Country TXR" which I just discovered... Then yesterday afternoon I thought, "screw it, I'll just go ahead and bite the bullet and buy 5 Toyo M-55's". Started calling Toyo dealers (nearest one is over 100 miles away) about 4:50 p.m., so needless to say I didn't get much info. But now I have TWO tires for them to check price and availability. It'll be a booger to try to replace one if I kill it, but I figure chances are pretty slim I'll do that with either one of these Toyos.
Thanks for all the info Redline - I think I FINALLY made up my mind... if I can find some!
:victory: :birthday.sml: :clapsmile :jump:
Now, if I can only find the dog-gone things!!!
I had narrowed it down to either the BFG KM or the BFG KM, with a passing interest in the Multi-Mile "Wild Country TXR" which I just discovered... Then yesterday afternoon I thought, "screw it, I'll just go ahead and bite the bullet and buy 5 Toyo M-55's". Started calling Toyo dealers (nearest one is over 100 miles away) about 4:50 p.m., so needless to say I didn't get much info. But now I have TWO tires for them to check price and availability. It'll be a booger to try to replace one if I kill it, but I figure chances are pretty slim I'll do that with either one of these Toyos.
Thanks for all the info Redline - I think I FINALLY made up my mind... if I can find some!
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Redline
Likes to Drive and Ride
Yep, they probably won't need replacing and I would really look at the MT over the M55. The Toyo MTs are available here because Les Schwab has them in their Oregon warehouse (they are brand new!!!).
Supposedly the price is going up 5% May 1. Retail for the Toyo MT 255/85 is $280 each, will be about $294.00 after the price increase. I'm able buy them at a 10% discount locally but I'm sure that doesn't make it worth it to ship them to you from here.
I did call an independent Toyo dealer yesterday who didn't know the new size was released, but he made a call and said he could order them.
Supposedly the price is going up 5% May 1. Retail for the Toyo MT 255/85 is $280 each, will be about $294.00 after the price increase. I'm able buy them at a 10% discount locally but I'm sure that doesn't make it worth it to ship them to you from here.
I did call an independent Toyo dealer yesterday who didn't know the new size was released, but he made a call and said he could order them.
ashooter said:
ashooter
Adventurer
I have calls in to 3 different Toyo dealers in Texas. Heard back from one of them that the 255 M/T is not available yet. I'll keep checking around, hell if I was going to spend $1350ish out the door for a set of M-55's, an extra $200 or so isn't the end of the world.... but damn that's a lot of money for a non-hardcore crawler tire!
Redline, you have experience with 265 and 285 Toyo M/T's right? How long do you reckon they'll last compared to the M-55? If they'll go 30k miles or so and still have 8 or 10/32nds of tread left, that'll work.
Redline, you have experience with 265 and 285 Toyo M/T's right? How long do you reckon they'll last compared to the M-55? If they'll go 30k miles or so and still have 8 or 10/32nds of tread left, that'll work.
Redline
Likes to Drive and Ride
Yes I do have experience with Toyo MT in 265 & 285, but I have not worn down a set of tries in quite a while. This is part of the affliction of being the Imelda Marco of tires 
Actually the issue was that I sold my 05 Rubicon with the 285s, and the 265s I didn't like as they were only 32s, and recently sold them to a friend for his pickup with only a few thirty-seconds worn off of them.
Others will have better info about their longevity, but I have seen some Toyo MTs that seem to be going the distance and others that seem to be wearing more rapidly. I think this has lots to do with the platform they are on and who is doing the driving. Your goal to make 30k with 8-10/32" left seems very reasonable.
Theory: If they wore at 1/32" per 3,000-miles, 19/32 (New 255 MT) to 2/32" minimum legal would be 51,000-miles. If you wore them down 10/32" from new to 9/32" at 1/32" per 3k you would reach 30,000-miles with 9/32" remaining.
EDIT:
I have rethought this, and I don't think the Toyo MTs, or many other tires light-truck traction tires, are going to reach 30k and sill have 8-10/32 of tread remaining. 20,000 miles is more attainable.
Actually the issue was that I sold my 05 Rubicon with the 285s, and the 265s I didn't like as they were only 32s, and recently sold them to a friend for his pickup with only a few thirty-seconds worn off of them. Others will have better info about their longevity, but I have seen some Toyo MTs that seem to be going the distance and others that seem to be wearing more rapidly. I think this has lots to do with the platform they are on and who is doing the driving. Your goal to make 30k with 8-10/32" left seems very reasonable.
Theory: If they wore at 1/32" per 3,000-miles, 19/32 (New 255 MT) to 2/32" minimum legal would be 51,000-miles. If you wore them down 10/32" from new to 9/32" at 1/32" per 3k you would reach 30,000-miles with 9/32" remaining.
EDIT:
I have rethought this, and I don't think the Toyo MTs, or many other tires light-truck traction tires, are going to reach 30k and sill have 8-10/32 of tread remaining. 20,000 miles is more attainable.
ashooter said:
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24HOURSOFNEVADA
Expedition Leader
ashooter said:
I think you will be pleasantly surprised how low you can go (Even without beadlocks) without puncturing a tire carcass.
here are a few pics from Cadillac Hill on the Rubicon. Single digit pressure, 37" BFG Krawlers from my last jeep. No damage to the tires.
p.s. "Imelda M. of the tire world" I laugh every time I hear that. That should be placed under your name.
ashooter
Adventurer
Wow 24HRS!... I would have thought that would destroy the sidewall! If nothing else I would have expected something like what you have pictured would break down the sidewall's internal construction and make the tires prone to blowing out the sidewall when zooming down the highway on a hot summer day at full pressure (been there - not fun).
I will likely never use tires THAT hard, but a set of Toyo M/T or M-55 would sure give me some peace of mind when it's 100 degrees, I'm 20 miles from the nearest drinking water source, driving through greasewood and jagged rocks.... then sending my wife and little boys down the interstate on a 300 mile trip the next day.
Edit to add this FYI: Just got off the phone with the owner of a tire shop I kinda know (friend of a friend) and he said that Toyo M/T's in 265/75/16 and 285/75/16 in his area (mostly sand/caliche and gravel) seem to be getting an average of about 25k-30k miles before they needed to be replaced. I told him I would have hoped to have at least around 8/32nds of tread left at 30k miles, and he said "No way - not gonna happen, but you will probably get 40k out of an M55 with that much tread left". He said some of his customers get 60k out of the M-55 before replacing them.
I will likely never use tires THAT hard, but a set of Toyo M/T or M-55 would sure give me some peace of mind when it's 100 degrees, I'm 20 miles from the nearest drinking water source, driving through greasewood and jagged rocks.... then sending my wife and little boys down the interstate on a 300 mile trip the next day.
Edit to add this FYI: Just got off the phone with the owner of a tire shop I kinda know (friend of a friend) and he said that Toyo M/T's in 265/75/16 and 285/75/16 in his area (mostly sand/caliche and gravel) seem to be getting an average of about 25k-30k miles before they needed to be replaced. I told him I would have hoped to have at least around 8/32nds of tread left at 30k miles, and he said "No way - not gonna happen, but you will probably get 40k out of an M55 with that much tread left". He said some of his customers get 60k out of the M-55 before replacing them.
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