My Angry Defender Rant.

[MattScott]

As a moderator, I would probably delete the racist slurs and suggest to the original poster that throwing up a late night brand/model bashing thread probably isn't wise and a violation of the expo policies, perhaps moving the post to "fireside chat" where it be more appropriate.



Yeah, kind of did that in my first post. I really regret not pointing out the OP's hypocrisy by bashing a Defender whilst owning a 2004 Porsche Cayenne S & a disco:costumed-smiley-007

"brand model bashing" I was mearly voicing my opinion; nowhere in my post was I bashing the brand, perhaps just repeating common knowledge. Note the first few words "I'd love to see a new defender..." Why would I bash a brand I so feverently love.

What does owning a Cayenne S have to do with anything? It was cheaper than a Defender. Never did I state I didn't have the funds to buy a Defender. Now it would be a hypocritical statement if i said that I didn't have the means to get a defender. But I dont see the hypocrisy, or relevance in owning a pepper (Cayenne) vs. voicing my critisism on the defender.

Besides the obviously negative things this thread has started, I believe it has sparked some good discussion.

 

[MattScott]

I think I'm going to go over to the Cobra or Ferrari forum and start whining about not being able to afford one of those just so I can relate to some of the people hear a little better.

Tom,

For the record, alot of people on this forum, including myself, could most likely afford a Defender. Again, this hasn't been the intent of the thread. Price was brought in as a comparision.

Thanks,

Matt Scott

 

[michaelgroves]

As a moderator, I would probably delete the racist slurs...

I feel like a real jerk for posting an opposing point of view, penned in the spirit of the thread. I should know better...we should all know better... Trying to make a point by stirring the pot in an inflametory way is not well received (did I mention I'm a jerk for doing so). Amazingly though, being nice about it gets you skewered too (see posts by Zooropa).

I think the point Alaska Mike was making is that Mods have a tough job deciding where exatcly the line is between healthy debate and irrelevant bickering.

I happen to agree with you on some points about the OP's "angry rant" - parts of it were rather inflammatory - but the gist of it was hardly something to be censored. (Interestingly, how come referring to Japanese cars as rice burners drew an accusation of bigotry, but the OP's flat-out implication that the British are all a nation of drunken football hooligans didn't? Sign of the times?)

Be that as it may, calling a Japanese vehicle a "rice burner" is hardly racist - or if it is, then it's a very obscure racial slur. Zooropa's somewhat self-righteous public rebuking of TeriAnn was both unnecessary and ironic:

I am hoping we are beyond bashing brands and people.... No need to slam Toyota...

Toyota will be around long after Land Rover has changed it's traditions well away from its heritage and been bought and sold a dozen more times despite our affinity for them

...the gentlemen traveling in South Africa was just rescued by a Toyota when his Defender 110 broke down for the second time lol How ominous

However, once again, I think the Mods were right not to remove it. It's an opinion, probably factually true, and relevant to the forum. What the Mods did do was to take the trouble to cut out the ugliness that followed. Let's not add more.

 

[michaelgroves]

Tom,

For the record, alot of people on this forum, including myself, could most likely afford a Defender. Again, this hasn't been the intent of the thread. Price was brought in as a comparision.

Thanks,

Matt Scott

Matt, I hope the high prices of Defenders have been adequately explained on this thread?

The value of something is defined by what people will pay for it (how else could it be defined?). People will pay "a lot" for Defenders in the UK, because despite their foibles, they are durable and cheap to run. People will pay "outrageous" money for Defenders in America because they want them, and the trucks are very scarce.

The high prices don't imply they are "better" than any other options, any more than the high price of saffron implies that it is better than parsely!

 

[revor]

Just to add to the curiosity, the logic (or lack thereof) and the mystery about Defenders..

It was -16 at my place this morning. The truck was plugged in all night with my Wife stealing off to do some nurse stuff in the middle of the night.

I got out and it started right up. No complaints, By the time I got to work some seven miles away the heater sorta started to work (with the radiator completely blocked off (yes it is a diesel).
But I had warm (relative term) air in the vents within a mile. The driver door would not competely latch though, something in there didn't like the cold, so I spent a good portion of my time at stops to scrape the inside of the windows clear of frost.
While doing all this my thoughts wandered, wishing I had the $$$ for the Fancy German heater to put in the thing, to that Black Disco parked in front of this freezing Aluminum Box on wheels.
I thought "this heater, it's akin to heating a railcar with a candle!" "And the HVAC? I can't even get enough cold air to blow on the sideglass to keep the frost from my breath off!"
It reminded my of just last night, Karen was putting away coats at the front closet. She was in the process of putting away my fleece. I remarked "hey don't do that I'll need it in the morning" She replied "just wear your big coat" "I will but I'll need that to go under it!" She rolled her eyes and left it out..
She got home about 2 this morning... I wonder if she'll wish she'd "Layered up" before taking the drive?

Should such an expensive truck have such a crummy heater? Nope, but I'll fix it..

In the mean time I'll just consider that I'm being closer to nature, not so isolated from the enviroment around me.. Keeps me prepared, ready for anything!

Really......

 

[I Leak Oil]

So after 10 pages of this it still comes down to people wanting defenders but being limited in supply.
Peter V., good to have you here. Going to Winter Romp? See you there if so...
Jason T.

 

[Alaska Mike]

I (somewhat jokingly) made the suggestion to the other moderators that we create a subroutine that automatically deletes all threads with "rant" in the title. They just never seem to end well.

Let's look at the tread so far:

• The original poster creates a late night thread, making some good points about a highly sought after, and therefore expensive, vehicle. He made a couple comments about the quality of British manufacturing processes along the way, but I generally take it as part of the Land Rover culture in the US. However, it seems to have been offensive to some.
• There were a couple serious posts, a couple light-hearted posts.
• Then the "rice bomb" dropped. I don't see any malice intended, just an unfortunate choice of words. The poster was called out for the comment, and no moderation was deemed necessary.
• Several posters tried to steer the thread back on course.
• Then we're back to debating the merits of the term "rice burner"
• Then there was a bit of active moderation, as the conversation started to spiral.
• Then we leveled out as the debate ran out of steam. There were a couple good posts about owning one despite all of the "shortcomings/character", which makes me want one just that much more. Still not enough to re-shuffle the financial priorities, but I still want one.

Is there any value to the thread? I'm not inclined to delete it. The "rice-burner" derail was interesting to me as a case of the membership defining what they interpret as acceptable at ExPo and how that should be enforced. I have a pretty thick skin about most things, unless you bring my family into it or start bad-mouthing Scott Brady, so it was instructive to me to see how different phrases or characterizations were interpreted.

I'd rather you deal with things like adults, calmly, rationally, and in private if possible. I think most issues can be resolved this way before things get out of hand. I don't like deleting posts or threads, but I won't let the honest efforts of others be destroyed by a few thoughtless comments. Things spiral out of control quickly on the internet, so sometimes drastic action has to be taken, but it's usually to preserve the substance of the discussion in the face of unchecked emotion and malice. I also don't like editing posts, as I read everything through my own personal filter, and may alter the intended meaning.

I'll close with a quote from one of the great minds of the 20th Century:
"It's such a fine line between stupid, and clever." -David St. Hubbins