New Defender News

[JeepColorado]

Well. . . here is another perspective. We all agree that Lexus (and Toyota) are the high water mark of reliability. In 2003, when Toyota was producing stalwart vehicles like the 100 Series Land Cruiser, the 4.7 Liter Tundra, the 3.4 Liter Tacoma, and others, their defects per 100 vehicles was 201. So, if you will hear me out, a modern Land Rover is just as reliable as a vehicle built by Toyota in 2000, and measured in 2003.

The narrative needs to gain some perspective. All manufacturers are significantly more reliable than ever before, and Land Rover is no different.

Isn't it concerning though that while a 2020 LR is more reliable than LR products from almost 2 decades ago it's still not nearly as reliable as it should be relative to the other manufacturers today? In fact it was one of worst back then per the chart you posted, it was frequently at the bottom of these lists in the intervening years and it's still on the bottom to this day.

Isn't that particularly a problem for long international remote adventure travel? Yes, there is a dealership network and no vehicle is guaranteed to not have issues, but this would seem particularly concerning if you are engaging in an activity that relies so heavily on your transportation so far away from others?

I'm not trying to be difficult I'm just trying to square the reasoning. Two of the principles you routinely advocate for are simplicity and minimalism. In December 2010 for an article titled "Vehicle Preparations for Overland Travel" you wrote that "Simplicity is key" and again in September 2019 in "The 10 Commandments of Modifying an Overland Vehicle" you wrote as your 1st rule- "Complexity is the Enemy." For the Defender article the 1st paragraph you wrote "It was the simplicity, the minimalism, and the sense of purpose that made them great, and those attributes are as valuable today as they have been since the Land Rover. I still believe in those qualities"

How does simplicity and minimalism align with a multi-staged, cross-linked electronic air bag?

When you put these 2 concepts together- that there is a preference for simplicity and minimalism and you apply that filter to the Defender- it would seem to come up wanting and any benefit of the doubt one might be inclined to give to it should erode substantially after looking at these reliability charts.

 

[35xj]

I've spent the evening reading about ten different reports from journalists on the African test drive - they all sound pretty encouraging with the exception of some minor pre-production glitches that were still being fine tuned on the prototype vehicles used for this trip.
Are there things that I wish were done a little differently - yes - especially the elimination of the terrain selection dial in favor of doing it all with the touch screen - but overall I'm very pleased with what I've read.
I got the chance to sit in one of the prototypes at a dealer in Atlanta last week and do a quick look around - I was on my way to an appointment so I didn't have much time for much more than a quick survey.
I was generally pleased with what I saw and can't wait to see one in Fuji white. My initial impression was that the Defender is slightly smaller looking than a D5 but a little taller. Visibility from the drivers seat appears to be very good and it feels slightly narrower than the D5.
I really believe that the aftermarket will be able to transform the new Defender into something that we will be proud to use to explore the back country with and very comfortable to drive to where we leave the pavement.
It looks tauter and more aggressive than the D5 and should turn heads on the road. I'm really looking forward to driving one. I really want to hear what the P300 is like to drive - it may be the sleeper of the bunch with 18" wheels and lower gearing in the axles.
I'll really miss the low end torque of the TDV6 diesel - but I was encouraged to read that Land Rover once again has done a great job of selecting gear ratios that just work - one of my favorite features of the many Land Rovers I've owned.

In my mind the ideal use for the new Defender is to explore the many Backcountry Discovery Routes that have been developed over the last few years - go to www.ridebdr.com to learn more about them.
I've done portions of the new NEBDR and the MABDR and I look forward to doing more of them.

I spent almost a month in the new defender everyday. The p300 is phenomenal.

 

[JackW]

I spent almost a month in the new defender everyday. The p300 is phenomenal.

Thanks - the six cylinder has been getting a lot of press but the four cylinder has been largely ignored. I drove a four cylinder 2020 Velar to get an idea of how the engine performed and decided to gamble on it for my new Defender.
I was really hoping for a six cylinder diesel but I'm reasonably sure the four cylinder gas version will meet my needs pretty well.

And on the subject of the much vaunted Toyota reliability -what about the frame issues with Tacoma pickups from just a few years ago? Most Toyota owners I know complain about a lack of power and a few other issues that are well known
No manufacturer is immune from issues and I've always been suspicious of the JD Power ratings as an advertising medium - somewhat more objective than the Motor Trend "Car of the Year" award but not much.

 

[mpinco]

FWIW - when SO and I went shopping JD Power surveys weren't even consulted or thought about. Period. The JD Power Dependability Survey is for issues while under warranty and really if you look behind the scenes it is probably heavily financed by ......... the automotive industry marketing departments. We could care less what the marketing department is tryinig to sell us, we had our short list. As owners of only LR trucks we took a step outside the LR family leading up to our current LR4 and shopped all manufacturers and ended back as LR.

As noted by ExtremeTech Technology Causes Big Problems for Automakers. Ah, you already knew that. In addition that infotainment technology is already mostly obsolete within the first year or two of ownership and will stay that way because we are not going to pay a subscription to keep it up to the latest revision. Sorry auto makers, I don't need you in my pocket all the time. I am not going to enable your revenue stream that is already built into my smartphone subscription.

So, the short list comes down to functionality, how it supports our lifestyle needs and cost does come into play. I would consider the new Luxury Defender down the road if the offer much better power train options. We are at 6000'+, tow a loaded camper over 12,000' mountain passes, use the camper as basecamp and explore the high country where cell service is zero. The 2.0L is out for that workload profile while the 3.0L MHEV is too complex and fails both the upfront cost and long term cost equation. For us old farts it feels and looks like a 70's engine in the early days of emission controls. The reviews I have seen confirm that integration issue. It is what it is for early Luxury Defenders. We will wait and see what the future brings. I suspect the industry is going to look a lot different post-SARS-2. When we are in the market again we will shop all manufacturers and evaluate to our ever changing short list of functionality must-have's. Who knows what the future brings.

 

[toylandcruiser]

This forum should really be called Toyota sucks everything else is better.

 

[naks]

I spent almost a month in the new defender everyday. The p300 is phenomenal.

Nonsense! How can a vehicle with brilliant air suspension, nice climate control, nice ergonomics, comfortable seats, airbags, crumple zones, ABS/DSC, etc., be phenomenal???

Don't you know that unless it has leaf springs, no crumple zones, no airbags, no safety features, and is not comfortable, it's not a real Land Rover?

 

[REDROVER]

Why go camping and stay in the tent, stay in the luxury hotel, it has everything. It even has room service. Pool and tv to watch jerry springer.
??

 

[Scott Brady]

I'm not trying to be difficult I'm just trying to square the reasoning. Two of the principles you routinely advocate for are simplicity and minimalism. In December 2010 for an article titled "Vehicle Preparations for Overland Travel" you wrote that "Simplicity is key" and again in September 2019 in "The 10 Commandments of Modifying an Overland Vehicle" you wrote as your 1st rule- "Complexity is the Enemy." For the Defender article the 1st paragraph you wrote "It was the simplicity, the minimalism, and the sense of purpose that made them great, and those attributes are as valuable today as they have been since the Land Rover. I still believe in those qualities"

How does simplicity and minimalism align with a multi-staged, cross-linked electronic air bag?

They do not align.

We are just presenting facts and performance attributes. It is up to the reader to decide what is most important. If you are traveling internationally and remote, the needs will be quite different than if you are traveling in North America. Take all the data in and buy the vehicle that suits your travel requirements or your anxiety level. In most cases, buyers overvalue reliability when compared to their actual travel risk profile.

 

[naks]

interesting comparison:

 

[naks]

Reviews from Car & Driver and Flat-Out Magazine:

 

[naks]

 

[naks]

very detailed review by a German magazine

 

[TexasTJ]

interesting comparison:

May be the best one that has been put out. Especially when she says it’s all up to personal opinion.

 

[Christian P.]

I was really hoping that this thread would remain centered on exciting news of the new Defender. The reliability question has been discussed ad nauseam in the Rage/hate thread.

Maybe I should move these last postings over there.

 

[A.J.M]

Please do.

the whole mud slinging is getting repetitive and boring.