soflorovers
Well-known member
From my understanding, the RRS SC and LR3 HD have thicker rear axles. I just bought a pair from LK8 and they were a different part number.
New Defender Rage/Hate Thread
- Thread starter DieselRanger
- Start date
Victory_Overland
Explorer
100% correct IMO. D90 has a mild lift and AT or off-road specific tire and clearly air'd down; short wheel base will always succeed in this scenario. Side by side comparisons mean nothing when you have two different drivers of different skill level and they clearly take different lines in many instances and different vehicles with different levels of hands on experience with those vehicles.
Modern D110 driver does not know even the slightest how to work that modern TC or throttle/brake modulation; hence training and time in a vehicle to really know how to use it appropriately. Additionally, the modern D110 is on street tires and look how rock hard the tires are and watch his throttle control; he's on the brakes or on the gas and nothing in between. Put the same driver in the same wheel base vehicles, like tires (air them down) and do a legit comparison or post it somewhere else.
Id walk up all of that in my LR3 no problem. Didn't see the legacy D110 go up that hill, just the short wheel base lifted D90 on ATs. And we call this a like comparison: not even the slightest. Just another hunt for a bias video and body language shows the guys who want to see the new D110 fail.
FYI, love all those vehicles and I'll take each one and use them for what they are good for. I see Jeep and Taco guys the trails with the same skills; watch the exact same vehicle hit some gnarly stuff and then the amateur can't get past stage one in a perfectly capable vehicle.
Completely biased video in every fashion.
DorB
Adventurer
AT tries, on 19”
I’ve been off road with friends driving Disco 3/4, it seems that their TC works different (much better).
JeepColorado
Well-known member
I find amusing the the excuse-making on here-
The Defender goes on an expedition to Africa controlled and managed by LR with a lot of professional drivers- not much goes wrong and everyone on here is praising it as the Best 4x4 By Far etc.. (did you honestly think it might turn out differently with LR controlling it?)
When the overwhelming evidence of multiple independent survey's from thousands of participants makes clear that LR has horrible reliability it's because people who can afford Rovers are just picky about their radio
When Rovers break down leaving owners stranded in the middle of nowhere waiting for days for parts- it's just because the owners don't do maintenance or drive it enough
When regular people start to get it with trails not hand-selected by the Green Oval- it struggles mightily, bottoming out, demonstrating perfectly the herky-jerky, lunging-forward style that's a common characteristic of traction control that has to wait for input from the ground before it decides what to do.
These are the tires that LR provides, these are the rims that LR provides- this is what they are. Watch the entire video and catch the end and you'll see exactly what happens when the Fashionistas design language meets off-roading that's not part of a marketing campaign.
Comparing apples to apples is fair- so let's just say these people are inexperienced noobs who got the keys to a Defender- let's take a look at what happened when Motortrend gave the keys to some rookies who had no off-road experience at all and gave them the keys to a Rubicon- here's the take-aways
"The Wrangler makes off-roading easier for everyone."
"As a huge proponent of "Keep it simple, stupid," I'm quite happy with our long-term 2019 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon's bare-bones off-road technology suite. It doesn't have special terrain modes for sand, mud, or snow, nor does it have fancy automatic differentials or off-road cruise control, but the Wrangler doesn't need those things."
""It's amazing how the Rubicon seems to smooth out rough terrain. The cabin was rarely jarred by whatever rocks or ruts the tires were rolling over. It doesn't feel like the Jeep can simply handle the terrain—it feels like it's almost eliminating it. And even when the trail got steep or off-camber, there was a solid sense of planted stability that boosted my confidence. Those short overhangs and good approach/departure angles are great for rock crawling, too. It makes it so much easier to plot a line when you're not worried about big bumpers dangling ahead of and behind the tires."
""Four low makes the Rubicon seem somewhat unstoppable.'
www.motortrend.com
The Defender goes on an expedition to Africa controlled and managed by LR with a lot of professional drivers- not much goes wrong and everyone on here is praising it as the Best 4x4 By Far etc.. (did you honestly think it might turn out differently with LR controlling it?)
When the overwhelming evidence of multiple independent survey's from thousands of participants makes clear that LR has horrible reliability it's because people who can afford Rovers are just picky about their radio
When Rovers break down leaving owners stranded in the middle of nowhere waiting for days for parts- it's just because the owners don't do maintenance or drive it enough
When regular people start to get it with trails not hand-selected by the Green Oval- it struggles mightily, bottoming out, demonstrating perfectly the herky-jerky, lunging-forward style that's a common characteristic of traction control that has to wait for input from the ground before it decides what to do.
These are the tires that LR provides, these are the rims that LR provides- this is what they are. Watch the entire video and catch the end and you'll see exactly what happens when the Fashionistas design language meets off-roading that's not part of a marketing campaign.
Comparing apples to apples is fair- so let's just say these people are inexperienced noobs who got the keys to a Defender- let's take a look at what happened when Motortrend gave the keys to some rookies who had no off-road experience at all and gave them the keys to a Rubicon- here's the take-aways
"The Wrangler makes off-roading easier for everyone."
"As a huge proponent of "Keep it simple, stupid," I'm quite happy with our long-term 2019 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon's bare-bones off-road technology suite. It doesn't have special terrain modes for sand, mud, or snow, nor does it have fancy automatic differentials or off-road cruise control, but the Wrangler doesn't need those things."
""It's amazing how the Rubicon seems to smooth out rough terrain. The cabin was rarely jarred by whatever rocks or ruts the tires were rolling over. It doesn't feel like the Jeep can simply handle the terrain—it feels like it's almost eliminating it. And even when the trail got steep or off-camber, there was a solid sense of planted stability that boosted my confidence. Those short overhangs and good approach/departure angles are great for rock crawling, too. It makes it so much easier to plot a line when you're not worried about big bumpers dangling ahead of and behind the tires."
""Four low makes the Rubicon seem somewhat unstoppable.'
Rookies Take the Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Off-Road
We sent novice off-roaders out in the Wrangler; here are there reports from the trail.
DorB
Adventurer
Or a completely biased opinion on unbased assumptions..?
Why can’t you accept that this truck is what it is?
A well equipped SUV, but not a defender?
No need to answer, I got it already that for some, no matter what, it’s not the dancer’s fault, but a broken floor.
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JeepColorado
Well-known member
This post reminds me of Baghdad Bob who did that press conference for the Iraqi Army with the building shaking all around him and you could hear the bombs in the background, but yet he was saying that the US was no where close to them......The "Defender" bottoms out, slides all over the rocks, the TC can't figure out what to do and when it does, the tires can't grip....but the excuse makers on here are "Nothing to see Here, Nothing to see Here!"
JeepColorado
Well-known member
Blaise
Well-known member
I've got a 15 year old rover and I with the off-road TC and rear locker I never have these issues. That's why we're questioning it, not bc of blind loyalty. I'm happy to own or wheel a Jeep or a Toyota (have had both) and would ask the same questions if one of those were performing this way.
No, we don't know for a fact that the tires weren't aired down but seeing the rear locker not engaged nor the front TC doing it's thing makes this real questionable.
Bingo. TC doesn't get worse with time.
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JeepColorado
Well-known member
I disagree- I see the TC trying to do it's thing- it's just not doing it very well. The tires are stopping, starting, spinning, at some point or another throughout the video you can see each tire moving, not necessarily all at the same time, at least from any one angle of the video, but you see the power bouncing around as the TC tries to figure it out. It's just not figuring it out well, by the time it starts to understand the scenario, you've lost momentum and now the scenario has changed. Until technology improves TC will always be one step behind what is actually happening, whereas lockers go in ready.
That's the beauty of lockers...there's nothing to figure out except where to park at the top of the hill.
Well the D3/4 has a older fully automatic terrain response so there’s real way to screw it up. The new Defender has fully configurable terrain response. You can “manually” lock and unlock the diffs you can also control throttle response and how aggressive the TC is. 19’s plain and simple don’t work good off road with the stock tire size. If I was going to buy a new Defender it would have a p300 with 18” Steelies and I’d buy a set of 285/65-18 KM3’s for it.
In many ways the hill climb reminds me of a real time demo of DII TC when compared side by side with open diff DI and a fully locked classic D90 from years ago. The surface was broken down granite, small pebbles, loose gravel with intermittant hard granite. The DI tried and failed. The DII made it farther up TC hunted, applied the reverse ABS technology (really that is TC) and failed while the locked D90 walked right up. I'm sure TC has matured since the DII days but the underlying technology still has limitations when the traction on all 4 wheels has issues. TC is a poor mans lockers. E-locker diffs does help and really should be considered a minimum.
Victory_Overland
Explorer
Wasn't blind loyalty by any means but that is what you see. I made clear observations by very clear indicators of bad driving and not properly using the TC; seen and heard on the video. My point was use the same driver of the D90 as he clearly knows how to drive and you can see his posture, control, navigation, and overall understanding of how to properly get up that obstacle. I would say the same thing and did when I commented on watching very capable Jeeps and Tacos perform as they should with the experienced driver and go nowhere with the wrong driver. Furthermore, I have never once stated anything of the sort related to lockers not be overly advantageous
It wasn't a cut on any other vehicle or denial; I can watch the same on Jeep and Taco and 4Runner videos on amateurs making great vehicles look like poorly equipped mall crawlers.
Don't read into it; I'm saying its not a fair comparison as we know nothing other that what we clearly see. If you think that is how to use a TC, locked or unlocked that you are tackling obstacles with hammer and anvil tactics and I feel sorry for your vehicle. Just because we see a flash of the dash with lockers doesn't mean that was the configuration; I find it very hard to believe that JLR took all of the good from their many years of successful traction control from the Defender. So clearly seeing indications of the rear not being locked is not evidence by seeing both rear wheels spinning differently; can you really say the rear is locked just as you make assumptions that a company with decades of successful TC use all of a sudden didn't make their rear locker actually lock?
There is zero reason for that much wheel spin; it comes from poor throttle modulation which takes time for the TC to catch up to the constant throttle and braking by the driver; TC use requires practice and understanding and yes, it does require consistant momentum and not rocking of the vehicle through throttle and brake manipulation. I can make any vehicle do that; exactly how I get the Taco stuck in the sand dunes when the TC won't let me. I induce the wheel spin and digging to bury the truck to the frame so we can practice recovery procedures. Jeep also uses TC and proper use of the TC is required anytime you are driving unlocked.
Fully locked does provide much more room for poor driving technique so maybe that is just what you are used to. Do you drive around everywhere with your lockers engaged even on the trail when not needed?
It wasn't a cut on any other vehicle or denial; I can watch the same on Jeep and Taco and 4Runner videos on amateurs making great vehicles look like poorly equipped mall crawlers.
Don't read into it; I'm saying its not a fair comparison as we know nothing other that what we clearly see. If you think that is how to use a TC, locked or unlocked that you are tackling obstacles with hammer and anvil tactics and I feel sorry for your vehicle. Just because we see a flash of the dash with lockers doesn't mean that was the configuration; I find it very hard to believe that JLR took all of the good from their many years of successful traction control from the Defender. So clearly seeing indications of the rear not being locked is not evidence by seeing both rear wheels spinning differently; can you really say the rear is locked just as you make assumptions that a company with decades of successful TC use all of a sudden didn't make their rear locker actually lock?
There is zero reason for that much wheel spin; it comes from poor throttle modulation which takes time for the TC to catch up to the constant throttle and braking by the driver; TC use requires practice and understanding and yes, it does require consistant momentum and not rocking of the vehicle through throttle and brake manipulation. I can make any vehicle do that; exactly how I get the Taco stuck in the sand dunes when the TC won't let me. I induce the wheel spin and digging to bury the truck to the frame so we can practice recovery procedures. Jeep also uses TC and proper use of the TC is required anytime you are driving unlocked.
Fully locked does provide much more room for poor driving technique so maybe that is just what you are used to. Do you drive around everywhere with your lockers engaged even on the trail when not needed?
JeepColorado
Well-known member
I like things that simply work- which this Defender clearly isn't doing. I've used TC many times- it can be good, but it clearly has real faults- very well demonstrated by this Defender trying to climb this hill.
TC takes time to learn, so does off-roading period, some systems are just more capable, more reliable and easier to use- again, even if these people are simply new to all of this, compare that with the experience of the rookies behind the wheel of a Rubicon in the Motortrend article. One system is more capable than the other; one system introduces worlds of complexity over the other without any significant benefit- in fact, it's less capable.
If the LR was more capable than the Jeep, maybe the trade off in complexity would be worth it, but it's not, it's more complex and LESS capable. You could put most anyone behind the wheel of a Rubicon in 4LO and walk up that hill even if they'd never seen a 4x4 before in their life. No special training needed, no unnecessary complexity, just something that would simply walk up that hill without all of the drama.
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DorB
Adventurer
I disagree- I see the TC trying to do it's thing- it's just not doing it very well. The tires are stopping, starting, spinning, at some point or another throughout the video you can see each tire moving, not necessarily all at the same time, at least from any one angle of the video, but you see the power bouncing around as the TC tries to figure it out. It's just not figuring it out well, by the time it starts to understand the scenario, you've lost momentum and now the scenario has changed. Until technology improves TC will always be one step behind what is actually happening, whereas lockers go in ready.
That's the beauty of lockers...there's nothing to figure out except where to park at the top of the hill.
The only problem is that it does have a rear locker..
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