New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[mpinco]

Reflecting on the new Ford Bronco, the marketing push of "back to the wild side" and a previous discussion of LR Defender development highlights the disconnect at JLR:

Appears LR's Rob Atkins - chief engineer, vehicle engineering captured the love/hate relationship with LR, that LR does live in a cave:

“.........Many of the biggest Defender decisions aren’t obvious, says Atkins, .......... he’s proud of two particular decisions: the use of bigger tyres to raise the Defender’s driving position and improve its off-road traction; and some special packaging measures needed to make the Defender’s boot space as wide and uncluttered as it is, in comparison with more conventional SUVs.

The decision about the big wheels came early, says Atkins: “Even before we had a fully engineered mule, we did some testing after we fitted bigger tyres to a Range Rover Sport and it was very promising. Then we went to Dubai, where sand driving is the national sport, and were simply blown away by the performance of our Defender mule, even when we were using road tyre pressures. We knew the design was strong, but big wheels gave the vehicle extra height and presence, and a lot more grip. That was a very important moment.”......... "

Bigger wheels/tires was an important moment? In 2019? From the "chief engineer"? Tires/wheels have been a item of discussion for decades and is one of the top, if not top, initial modifications. Things that just make you scratch your head and ask ****** were you thinking LR?

A recent visit to the dealer had an interesting feel to it. Clearly JLR is moving to an environment that is far removed from the off-road/overland community, very urban with employees all very clean cut and standing around staring at cell phones. I doubt many of the new employees have even camped. JLR has lost the connect to its community. It's products have become furniture.

JLR needs a new CEO yesterday and that person needs to clean house.

 

[Blaise]

lol I think you should go be a CEO since you've got it all figured out.

You think the chief engineer in vehicle engineering really doesn't understand this better? Dude, its as press release. Consider who's reading it. Wow.

 

[Highlander]

As said above when it comes with numbers the new Def is basically beats many SUV's and even small American pickups.
The interior and comfort tied to simplicity is very good. This is very important for long distance driving, especially on relatively flat but rough roads.
I like the American and Canadian prairies, there are tons of rough and unpaved roads where driving is very exiting, beautiful and in the same time exhausting.

There are two problems I see with the new Def.
1. The historical unreliability coupled with very complex technology. One may even say it's unnecessarily complex.
2. They have deliberately made the car that seems to be very unfriendly to aftermarket. They should have know that in overland community aftermarket is everything. It does not only personalize your truck/SUV but also fills out the gaps you may think the maker has left out.

As for the independent suspension, I am not against it per say. I believe the modern engineering can find a good middle between comfort, reliability and simplicity.
I once wrote here that I run into a guy in Montana, very close to the Missouri breaks, who drove a Honda Ridgline. He said even though the truck did not have a low gear it did very well on those rough BLM roads. Apparently it also was very comfortable to drive in such areas too.
I test drove it too and there is no small truck on the market that comes even closer with the Ridgline's comfort and handling. Yes, I know it looks bad.

In this video you will see that a good ind. suspension has got its merits and it's not all the way horrible.
Before you pile on me I will say I don't like the Ridgline and I do not want one. (maybe if they add a low gear I'll start thinking of it).
I am putting this video for us to see how a good ind. suspension might be and how well it could came out. It has cons, which many of us might not be aware of.

 

[JeepColorado]

I am so sick of people moaning about the front end of the Defender. Rounded front ends improve aerodynamics AND pedestrian safety - they helped make sure the Defender will be sold all over the world, passing safety and fuel economy restrictions that are much harder to hit than those in the US.

The Bronco will be sold in a handful of markets, so was much easier to slap a boxy frontend on.

But yet again, all of you "Gerry puts form over function" people are constantly whining that you don't like the form of the new Defender, even though that form helps serve some very real functional requirements. So is function only important when it's the function you personally care about, or is there a chance that engineers know more about how to build a car for their target markets than a handful of armchair experts vomiting their opinions onto some forums?

But there are in fact plenty of engineers who have chimed in- ..the ones at Ford and Jeep and Toyota and Mercedes who have shown the better way of how to modernize an Icon or keep the same design and engineering priorities over time.

We know what happens when those things are foresaked for vanilla soft-roader land (Nissan Pathfinder)- we don't need more of that. LR didn't need more of that; they had plenty of those models already.

 

[JeepColorado]

Nah man, forums know better.

Something I realized thinking about this last night is that a lot of people specifically dislike the Defender and other EAS/modern rovers because they are a turn-key solution. These people want a 'lifestyle' of modifying their cars, whether good or bad, they want to put their mark on it. That isn't a bad thing, having a car hobby is fun. However, its not for everyone (I already spend 50+hrs a week doing actual R&D work), so turn-key doesn't bother me. Ford knows this, as does Jeep, so they're catering to the aftermarket. It's big money.

I will still never understand why people are so worked up over what direction a company takes on product they aren't vested in. Just don't buy the car, man....

It is really hard to understand why enthusiast on an enthusiast forum have strong opinions about the very aspect of life they've poured thousands of dollars and years of time into. I don't get it either.

Personalization is one of the key attributes of the 4x4 community- to ignore that is ignorance on the part of LR. There's strong opinions about it, because to a lot of people it's not just a car. It's a brand and a vehicle that represents a way of life that is meaningful. I just wish there were more of those people at LR- perhaps they would have taken it another direction.

 

[JeepColorado]

lol I think you should go be a CEO since you've got it all figured out.

You think the chief engineer in vehicle engineering really doesn't understand this better? Dude, its as press release. Consider who's reading it. Wow.

You don't see Ford saying "Wow, we had no idea that putting 35s on a Bronco would give it more ground clearance" I think the quote shows how out of touch they are with what they want you to believe they are about. I think the Defender also shows just how corporate they are- unwilling to be bold and do something imaginative- the Bronco shows that in spades. Look at what people are saying, they can't believe that a modern major corporation had the courage to build something like the Bronco whereas, LR just built a new Discovery and stuck a Defender badge on it.

 

[Buliwyf]

What really stinks is that engineer admitted that he looked at wheels and tires, and still chose to use something that belongs on a Honda Accord.

''Careful driver, we didn't hardpack the entire trail with a steam roller yet:

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

How is a 32.1” Duratrac on a 18” wheel a rubber band tire?

I am sure the white steelies will be a very sought after option...

Not everybody. Some do. If you don't like it, buy another car? I love doing long distance off roading with air suspension. I get waved by a lot by wranglers and such going half the speed.

"Rubber band tires" a 60-70 series tire?

Not everybody dreams of awful ride quality, noise, and limited space/cargo either, but each to their own. You don't see me trashing wrangler owners online (or in person for that matter).

I will never have one but the Defender was one of my favorite vehicles. Not a hater.

And I am not trashing anything or anybody.

Just saying when you go from the best looking 4wd (IMO):

To this:

you are going to ruffle feathers.

Since the Defender barely existed in the US beforehand... its no big deal to me at the end of the day. Once again everybody else gets the cool stuff. I do enjoy spotting one every couple years though.

Now I have the Ineos thing to watch for too though...

 

[DieselRanger]

I am so sick of people moaning about the front end of the Defender. Rounded front ends improve aerodynamics AND pedestrian safety - they helped make sure the Defender will be sold all over the world, passing safety and fuel economy restrictions that are much harder to hit than those in the US.

The Bronco will be sold in a handful of markets, so was much easier to slap a boxy frontend on.

But yet again, all of you "Gerry puts form over function" people are constantly whining that you don't like the form of the new Defender, even though that form helps serve some very real functional requirements. So is function only important when it's the function you personally care about, or is there a chance that engineers know more about how to build a car for their target markets than a handful of armchair experts vomiting their opinions onto some forums?

This. I actually think it looks far better in person than it does in any photo, and as an engineer I think part of that is it looks the part, but wouldn't be out of place at a valet stand. It looks better to me more immediately than the D5 did even in person. It's not muscle-bound-flat-brim-hat-sleeve-tattoo'd-butch like the Bronco, or flag-wavin'-Springsteen-blastin'-'Murica like the Jeep - it's very James Bond, which is to say a British take on tough but understated - it's what's under the suit that matters, and he'd probably rather you underestimate him. It's just a different approach.

The old Defender (and Discovery and Range Rover...and Jeep) designs were born of necessity driven by factory limitations in stamping body panels. Poor quality control and worn stamps drove massive panel gaps that were easier to close (or at least even up) when all the body panels were rectangles. So it was easy and necessary to make slab-sided vehicles that to American eyes translated into toughness.

Form and function can indeed be mutually supportive (Aston Martin masters this), and with modern engineering tools and production facilities, which JLR has spent huge sums on over the last 8 years, they now have the freedom to adjust form around function, as they've done with the Defender and the Discovery.

People can not like the form all they want - that's purely subjective and it's completely legitimate to criticize. The Bronco's and the Wrangler's forms are tuned to American blue-collar good-ol'-boys-never-meanin'-no-harm tastes. Land Rover's form is tuned to different tastes, but tastes that are still quite common in the US. When Q3 and Q4 sales are released I think the Defender will post higher numbers than the Discovery 5 did at the same point in its introduction.

 

[TrailWhalePowerwagon]

What sort of 4x4 terrain does one have in Florida?

my 10k acre hunting lease sure has some offroad terrain.
albeit, its wet.
@TrailWhalePowerwagon is my instagram if you want to see some footage.

 

[DieselRanger]

But there are in fact plenty of engineers who have chimed in- ..the ones at Ford and Jeep and Toyota and Mercedes who have shown the better way of how to modernize an Icon or keep the same design and engineering priorities over time.

We know what happens when those things are foresaked for vanilla soft-roader land (Nissan Pathfinder)- we don't need more of that. LR didn't need more of that; they had plenty of those models already.

The amazing thing is, people still call the Defender a vanilla soft-roader despite obvious and convincing video proof to the contrary. The Velar and the Evoque are soft-roaders. The Defender is a sophisticated off-roader that was designed knowing people will spend most of their time on the road, same as a Jeep or a Bronco.

 

[JeepColorado]

The amazing thing is, people still call the Defender a vanilla soft-roader despite obvious and convincing video proof to the contrary. The Velar and the Evoque are soft-roaders. The Defender is a sophisticated off-roader that was designed knowing people will spend most of their time on the road, same as a Jeep or a Bronco.

Speaking purely about the transfer case, rear locker and configurable off-road settings I'd tend to agree with you. It has 2 strikes against it that to me push it back into that soft-roader category. 1) it's resistance to aftermarket support which is absolutely integral to me as part of the sport/lifestyle we enjoy
2) the Cheap chintzy BS fakery that shows up in the Defender...I.E. the floating pillar that's so hideous it's one of the first things the aftermarket is finding ways to get rid of or the fake diamond plate stickers on the hood and front bumper. It's like there was someone at LR who sat around and was thinking about ways to help people be better posers

 

[JeepColorado]

 

[mpinco]

Post-covid and the exodus from urban areas, with a new emphasis on getting outdoors and with the recent competition from Ford and Ineos that highlights how 'root's matter, I predict Land Rover will attempt to move back to its roots with the new CEO. Land Rover cannot survive as a furniture manufacturer. The upcoming "rationalizations" will begin that process.

Not sure what they do with Jaguar.

 

[Carson G]

Post-covid and the exodus from urban areas, with a new emphasis on getting outdoors and with the recent competition from Ford and Ineos that highlights how 'root's matter, I predict Land Rover will attempt to move back to its roots with the new CEO. Land Rover cannot survive as a furniture manufacturer.

Not sure what they do with Jaguar.

I have a feeling they will.