New Defender Rage/Hate Thread

[DieselRanger]

What's your load out for 10 days?

An RTT, winch, rack, and my camp gear total is under 1000# easy. Maybe ya'll should lose the 50# Transformer Autobot stoves.

Out west, that includes water at 7 lbs per gallon, two spares - one with a wheel if not both, hi-lift, prybar/rock bar, shovel/pulaski, beer, whiskey, wine at 7lbs per gallon (c'mon, you're not going out without it), firearms for fun and not-fun, and then all the little **************** you always take like the chili spoon you carved yourself from a larger spoon...it adds up.

 

[JeepColorado]

Hard to see the driver's feet in most of the videos. And, as with any new technology, there's a learning curve associated with things like turning the knobs on the adjustable diff, TC, and throttle behavior.

I thought one of the benefits of all of this technology was that it was supposed to make things easier....you can put an absolute noob in a Rubi and if they have the ability to push a button it's point and shoot.

Rookies Take the Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Off-Road

We sent novice off-roaders out in the Wrangler; here are there reports from the trail.

www.motortrend.com

 

[DieselRanger]

I thought one of the benefits of all of this technology was that it was supposed to make things easier....you can put an absolute noob in a Rubi and if they have the ability to push a button it's point and shoot.

Rookies Take the Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Off-Road

We sent novice off-roaders out in the Wrangler; here are there reports from the trail.

www.motortrend.com

There are preset modes that will make it point and shoot - but the ability to tweak settings to optimize for the exact conditions still requires knowledge of what you're tweaking, and feedback to train your brain how to use it effectively. It's like the multiple step-down modes in defeating traction control on Ferraris and Lamborghinis. The older models where you put it in neutral and yank a lever don't have the level of adjustability these do - they were binary. Modulation happened with your feet, and that took heel/toe skills to make it work best in clutched vehicles...and that took years to master. This will make it much faster.

 

[DieselRanger]

Don't recall if this was posted here or not, but because we're just 15 pages away from 200, here's some gas for the fire:

Autocar Awards 2020: Land Rover's Gerry McGovern wins Sturmey Award | Autocar

Our innovator award goes to the passionate and long-serving design director of Land Rover

www.autocar.co.uk

 

[mpinco]

Don't recall if this was posted here or not, but because we're just 15 pages away from 200, here's some gas for the fire:

Autocar Awards 2020: Land Rover's Gerry McGovern wins Sturmey Award | Autocar

Our innovator award goes to the passionate and long-serving design director of Land Rover

www.autocar.co.uk

McGovern admits his crowning achievement is the Evoque, a fashion statement, and that the heritage of the Discovery product line (stepped roof/stadium seating/offset plate) resulted in a less than visually acceptable Discovery 5. Which is an off-handed way of saying the heritage of the Defender was an impediment to his latest creation the Land Rover 'Element'. And that the new Range Rover is headed in the Velar direction - long, low and flat, more of a shooting-brake than a Range Rover.

 

[JeepColorado]

Don't recall if this was posted here or not, but because we're just 15 pages away from 200, here's some gas for the fire:

Autocar Awards 2020: Land Rover's Gerry McGovern wins Sturmey Award | Autocar

Our innovator award goes to the passionate and long-serving design director of Land Rover

www.autocar.co.uk

Contrast that with the Ford Designer and you get the difference so easily- reading that article was like listening to a Modern Art Sculptor explain some esoteric design principle. "I allowed myself - and the team- to be too influenced by the established visual DNA of previous Discovery's"....What? You mean some of the very aspects of them that have made them icons? Some of the very design features that have created legions of fans- the kind of people who'd come onto this forum and call people trolls simply because they don't think LR is the almighty's gift to 4x4?

...I don't work for either, but I'd think anyone that talked like that on the Wrangler or Bronco project would get rightfully dismissed from the conversation.

 

[mpinco]

While the article speaks to Tesla and Jaguar, the same conclusions could be applied to Land Rover

After Earnings Report, What Tesla Stock Investors Should Study From Jaguar’s History Book
Jul 22, 2020

In the past month, Tesla TSLA +1.5%’s stock has been on a steady incline that rivals Pike’s Peak; rising from approximately $1000 per share in mid-June to over $1760 last week (on July 13th). ........

.......At the same time, though, Tata Motors – the owner of the Jaguar brand since 2012 –appears to be in the valley beyond the mountain: a price per share of approximately $7 per share, which is half of January’s price and has barely moved in the past month. Jaguar itself peaked in U.S. sales in 2002 with 61,204 units and has only averaged under 21,000 units per year for the past decade. Just like Tesla, Jaguar started in the luxury sedan realm with sleek designs, a higher price point and limited selection, yet its U.S. sales and stock seems contradictory to Tesla. Why? Is there a chapter of the Jaguar history book that Tesla stockholders should be reading?

The very simple answer: “The chapter entitled ‘Poor Dependability.’”..........."

 

[Highlander]

Has Mr. McGovern ever been known for his love for outdoors, overlanding, off-roading etc?
Just a question...

(The Ineos guy is an avid outdoors man and SUV/truck enthusiast)

Also remember, as person who is somewhat closely associated with design, I must confess those awards are usually given by the likeminded people with similar taste and design values.
Basically they are judged by the peers, not by the customers.

It seems Mr. McGovern has no skin in the game.

Nassim Taleb has put it wisely; The problem is architects building structures to impress other architects --but plumbers don't act on impressing other plumbers. Any activity where agents impress peers (architects, academia) rather than satisfying the needs constituents ends up rotting. #SkininTheGame

The architect = Land Rover (Mr. McGovern)
The plumber = Ineos Grenadier

 

[mpinco]

^This.

 

[JeepColorado]

Has Mr. McGovern ever been known for his love for outdoors, overlanding, off-roading etc?
Just a question...

(The Ineos guy is an avid outdoors man and SUV/truck enthusiast)

Also remember, as person who is somewhat closely associated with design, I must confess those awards are usually given by the likeminded people with similar taste and design values.
Basically they are judged by the peers, not by the customers.

It seems Mr. McGovern has no skin in the game.

Nassim Taleb has put it wisely; The problem is architects building structures to impress other architects --but plumbers don't act on impressing other plumbers. Any activity where agents impress peers (architects, academia) rather than satisfying the needs constituents ends up rotting. #SkininTheGame

The architect = Land Rover (Mr. McGovern)
The plumber = Ineos Grenadier

This has made all 185 pages worth it! There's nothing in Mr. McGovern's talk about the world of off-road- hell, he doesn't mention the 1st thing about how the design will help 4x4s. Instead he dismisses the "established visual DNA" as something that was getting in his way of creating something modern. Ineos, Jeep Ford have shown you don't need to be so compromised, you can make a beautiful vehicle that is thoroughly modern and capable.

It's like the saying for Overland Journal Magazine- We only know things when we experience them for ourselves. Look at Mark Allen of Jeep and Gerry McGovern and ask yourself who'd you'd rather have making your next 4x4.

Jeep's Chief Designer Explains How Vintage Design Inspired the 2018 Wrangler

Mark Allen clearly took inspiration from vintage Jeeps in designing the new Wrangler. But it's not all retro throwbacks here.

www.roadandtrack.com

 

[JeepColorado]

More of this type of talk please---

"Good design is all about details, and Mark Allen is telling me how he managed to convince one of his interior designers to go with an easily adjustable round vent in the new Jeep Wrangler.
“He was trying to go a different way,” says Allen, the head of design for Jeep.
So, on a cold morning in Moab, Utah — what heaven would be if it were made of red rocks and off-road trials — Allen steered him to a Wrangler without doors or a top.
“He drove it. Then he understood you can point the vents at your hands and you’ll survive.”
The new Wrangler got the round vents Allen wanted."

Design driven by real experiences not theoretical artistic principles more at home in an art gallery than in a mud track

Mark Allen: ‘A quintessential Jeep guy’

LOS ANGELES — Good design is all about details, and Mark Allen is telling me how he managed to convince one of his interior designers to go with an easily ...

www.toledoblade.com

 

[TexasTJ]

You can see the DNA

 

[JeepColorado]

You can see the DNA
View attachment 600285

It's beautiful!! ..and the mountains aren't bad either

 

[umbertob]

you can make a beautiful vehicle that is thoroughly modern and capable.

Beautiful... well, depends on who you ask. Outside of enthusiasts forums, not everyone is into nostalgia, retro styling and "making it look like the classics." As far as modern and capable, we have already established the new Defender is both. The Ineos and new Bronco are only photos and sleek videos and renderings on the internet so far. In a year or so, we'll see.

 

[DieselRanger]

Contrast that with the Ford Designer and you get the difference so easily- reading that article was like listening to a Modern Art Sculptor explain some esoteric design principle. "I allowed myself - and the team- to be too influenced by the established visual DNA of previous Discovery's"....What? You mean some of the very aspects of them that have made them icons? Some of the very design features that have created legions of fans- the kind of people who'd come onto this forum and call people trolls simply because they don't think LR is the almighty's gift to 4x4?

...I don't work for either, but I'd think anyone that talked like that on the Wrangler or Bronco project would get rightfully dismissed from the conversation.

Nobody wants to interview an engineer, and engineers aren't comfortable talking in public, but I suspect we would hear the complementary position if someone did ask Nick Roger's for his perspective on the Defender.

Who cares if Gerry isn't an off roader? He highlights the inevitable compromise between design and engineering.