DieselRanger
Well-known member
Some lyrics from Aerosmith come to mind....
"I got good news, she's a real good liar
Cuz her backstage boogie sets your pants on fire..."
New Defender Rage/Hate Thread
- Thread starter DieselRanger
- Start date
"I got good news, she's a real good liar
Cuz her backstage boogie sets your pants on fire..."
While the new Defender claims 8,201 lbs of towing capacity, the reality is much less actual capability when one considers tongue weight.
From Land Rover's web site and brochures:
Discovery 5 - Maximum coupling point (nose weight) (lbs) - 772
Defender - - Maximum coupling point (nose weight) (lbs) - 330
Backing into trailer weight at a tongue weight of 12% yields real world towing capability:
Discovery - 6433 lbs
Defender - 2750 lbs
Taking the tongue weight percentage down to 10% yields a Defender capability of 3300 lbs while the Discovery is 7,720 lbs.
330lbs is 4% of 8,200 lbs.
The Defender and Bronco are virtually equivalent in towing capability.
Edit add:
F-150 - 500 lbs
F-250 - 1,500 to 1,800 lbs
For Land Rover tongue weight is very important to ensure axle ratings are not exceeded because LR says DO NOT USE weight distribution hitches with their air suspension.
From Land Rover's web site and brochures:
Discovery 5 - Maximum coupling point (nose weight) (lbs) - 772
Defender - - Maximum coupling point (nose weight) (lbs) - 330
Backing into trailer weight at a tongue weight of 12% yields real world towing capability:
Discovery - 6433 lbs
Defender - 2750 lbs
Taking the tongue weight percentage down to 10% yields a Defender capability of 3300 lbs while the Discovery is 7,720 lbs.
330lbs is 4% of 8,200 lbs.
The Defender and Bronco are virtually equivalent in towing capability.
Edit add:
F-150 - 500 lbs
F-250 - 1,500 to 1,800 lbs
For Land Rover tongue weight is very important to ensure axle ratings are not exceeded because LR says DO NOT USE weight distribution hitches with their air suspension.
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Blaise
Well-known member
for the last time YOUR SIMPLE MULTIPLICATION OPERATION DOES NOT EQUATE TO A PUBLISHED INDUSTRY STANDARD.
Oh my god. How does somebody really think that they in 3 seconds can out-do an R&D campaign?
Read the damn standard before you 'show off' with your arithmetic. JFC.
Oh my god. How does somebody really think that they in 3 seconds can out-do an R&D campaign?
Read the damn standard before you 'show off' with your arithmetic. JFC.
gatorgrizz27
Well-known member
I’m going to assume that’s either a typo, and it’s actually 330 kg, or they mean tongue weight is reduced to that in addition to max payload. The 110 doesn’t even have the tail overhang the 130 does, which would decrease the allowable tongue weight even more.
gatorgrizz27
Well-known member
Being able to clear 33’s on 18’s with the P400 engine is a huge deal. I see far less people complaining about sidewall height than wondering why you would completely castrate a capable off-road vehicle by running 19” wheels, which have 2? reasonable tire options.
This could be an awesome option with the compomotive wheels, Cooper’s new Evolution M/T. The 275/70R18 measures 32.5” tall and 10.25” wide, with a 3630 lb load rating. They are supposed to perform well and be quiet at under $800 a set ($1000 for 5).
This could be an awesome option with the compomotive wheels, Cooper’s new Evolution M/T. The 275/70R18 measures 32.5” tall and 10.25” wide, with a 3630 lb load rating. They are supposed to perform well and be quiet at under $800 a set ($1000 for 5).
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The LR spec's are in lbs. Their 'notes' don't say the value is derated by total payload. The Range Rover, Discovery and Defender are all based on the D7 platform architecture. What was changed by going to the Premium Lightweight Architecture (PLA) aluminium platform ?
Blaise
Well-known member
They don't say that eh?
Land Rover Owner Information
www.ownerinfo.landrover.com
View attachment 601306
Ah, OK. The US LR web site does not have that note. So what is the maximum tongue weight rating for the Defender? Same as the Discovery 5? (assuming the D7 architecture is the driving factor)
So same as the D5. That makes sense for the D7 platform. LR needs to update their brochures and web page notes.
That said, 770 lbs is only 9% of the 8,200 lb trailer weight, on the low side for standard recommendations. For my LR4 I went with the Rhino hitch for this specific reason as LR was bouncing from 550 to 770 lbs for their 'plow' design. A good example of form getting in the way of functionality. I know of LR4 owners who moved to Landcruisers because of this issue.
Edit add: Checking the Range Rover web page and downloadable brochure, it also states 330lb max tongue weight with no note on derating because of payload. (hanging head for Land Rover as they need better marketing)
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Blaise
Well-known member
A simple hyper-conservative approach is pointless when you have extensive testing backing the data. You're so far outside your lane and you're completely unaware. Look at the graph again, think about where you fall. Did you read the SAE J2807 standard? Come back once you have.
Edit: I'll even give you the link! Can't wait for you to try to explain why a peer-reviewed industry-accepted technical standard is not good enough.
J2807_201602: Performance Requirements for Determining Tow-Vehicle Gross Combination Weight Rating and Trailer Weight Rating - SAE International
This document establishes minimum performance criteria at GCWR and calculation methodology to determine tow-vehicle TWR for passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles and trucks. This includes all vehicles up to 14000 lb GVWR.
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A simple hyper-conservative approach is pointless when you have extensive testing backing the data. You're so far outside your lane and you're completely unaware. Look at the graph again, think about where you fall. Did you read the SAE J2807 standard? Come back once you have.
Edit: I'll even give you the link! Can't wait for you to try to explain why a peer-reviewed industry-accepted technical standard is not good enough.
J2807_201602: Performance Requirements for Determining Tow-Vehicle Gross Combination Weight Rating and Trailer Weight Rating - SAE International
This document establishes minimum performance criteria at GCWR and calculation methodology to determine tow-vehicle TWR for passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles and trucks. This includes all vehicles up to 14000 lb GVWR.www.sae.org
Chill out Blaise. Actually thanks for highlighting WHY the manufacturers have been all over the road and why the Defender and Range Rover tongue weight rating has been lowered to 330 lbs from the historical Land Rover rating of 770lbs, which was lowered to 550 lbs and now 330 lbs. Appears adoption of the SAE standard drove marketing claims.
What Is SAE J2807? What Does It Really Mean For Your Pickup Truck?
6/19/14
"The maximum-claimed towing capacity of most pickup trucks is ****************. Those numbers are created by manufacturers and vetted by no one. The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) wants to change that, with a standard test for measuring truck towing capacity called "J2807."
The standard was written 2008, revised in 2010, and adopted by Toyota in 2013. Every other automaker who sells trucks in the US was "totally going to start using it," but nobody wanted to be first because they all knew the SAE max would be lower than the numbers they could cook up under their own testing conditions............
........New calculations for trailer weight ratings: In addition to the performance standards, SAE J2807 also uses a specific set of assumptions to calculate maximum trailer weight ratings:
- For light-duty full-size pickups (GVWR < 8,500 lbs.), SAE J2807 assumes that the tow vehicle includes any options with higher than 33 percent penetration;
- It assumes there is both a driver and passenger in the vehicle, each weighing 150 pounds;
- It assumes that tow vehicles also include up to 70 pounds of aftermarket hitch equipment (where applicable); and
- For conventional trailer towing, SAE J2807 assumes that 10 percent of the trailer weight is on the tongue.
Without digging even further into the timing of the press releases vs J2807 but assuming that after the LR4 and roughly 2014, every manufacturer probably rates newer models based on those criteria. In summary this implies that the new Premium Lightweight Architecture (PLA) aluminium D7 platform tow rating is a 1/2 ton pickup or less. Good to know.
Blaise
Well-known member
You're getting closer. Once you read the spec, you'll better understand that manufacturers aren't just throwing numbers out there like you were suggesting when you said that 'common sense' states that you can't tow with a 4 cylinder.
Not sure what "1/2 ton pickup or less" means. "1/2 ton" has been nothing but legacy naming convention for decades now. It's rated to tow 8000lb, end of story...
Not sure what "1/2 ton pickup or less" means. "1/2 ton" has been nothing but legacy naming convention for decades now. It's rated to tow 8000lb, end of story...
Here are the tongue weight rating of different vehicles. Assuming they are all following SAE J2807 are as follows:
LR PLA D7 platform - 330 lbs
F-150 - 500 lbs
F-250 - 1,500 to 1,800 lbs
In addition both GVWR and GAWR must be accounted for with the usual guideline that TW is 10%. Work your way back and forth through the math to ensure a safe combination.
I live at an altitude of 6,600 ft. That were my towing BEGINS. You can tow anything with a 4 cyl. Common sense at altitude says forget it. Its the same common sense that says I don't tow my camper with my DI even though its a 8cyl.
LR PLA D7 platform - 330 lbs
F-150 - 500 lbs
F-250 - 1,500 to 1,800 lbs
In addition both GVWR and GAWR must be accounted for with the usual guideline that TW is 10%. Work your way back and forth through the math to ensure a safe combination.
I live at an altitude of 6,600 ft. That were my towing BEGINS. You can tow anything with a 4 cyl. Common sense at altitude says forget it. Its the same common sense that says I don't tow my camper with my DI even though its a 8cyl.