Overland Journal: Discovery I, 5-speed

[Wander]

Sorry for the repeat if this question has been answered-I'm new to the coil springs as I've got a IIa (series people argue over parabolics vs standard, but mostly we just pour another stout and enjoy the campfire)

On the CT DI's with the wolfs and XZL's what set up where they running?

 

[David Harris]

On the CT DI's with the wolfs and XZL's what set up where they running?

First, they weren't running Wolfs, they were running the standard solid steel wheels like Scott has, only the 5.5 inch wide versions. The tires were 7.00x16 (not the 7.5x16 as many say). So basically they were on 31's. The front springs were stock Disco diesel ones, on the rear they were running stock springs with some small coil helper springs inside the main coils, like on a 110. In fact, some have suggested that they were running the larger 110 main coils as well, but that would have meant changing the perches to the 110 ones. Don't know about this. As you can see from photos of them, there was no lift/very little from stock ride height. By way of comparison, I've attached a photo of my 96 D1 which has stock springs with LR isolators top and bottom on both ends, for a .75 inch lift. The tires are 245/75R16 like Scott's (31's). I have a camel cut as you can see. If I'm not loaded down too much, I can flex these tires all the way up without rubbing. I'm thinking about going to the LR factory extra heavy duty springs in the future for the same lift and more capacity.

 

[Wander]

That seems like a pretty good and easy set up. As we aren't running with CT loads (that doesn't sounds right..) I can see running a stiffer spring in the rear rather than running two springs-I'm guessing the two spring set up would be a bit punishing unladen.

 

[Viggen]

No favoring really. 215/85 are fine too, as a skinny versus the wider 245. Skinnies make a lot of sense for many conditions.

Nowhere around here, East Coast, would something that small and that skinny make any kind of sense. I hate it when everyone starts talking about what was run in the Camel Trophy as some sort of universal reference. They dealt with basically stock trucks to keep the competition even and made some modifications (tying racks into the cage) for seriously overloaded conditions. No way would I run anything like what they ran anywhere around here. A 30" tall, 8" wide skinny tire just barely worked for them in many of the events. I bet if you gave them a D1 with 255/85s and 3" of lift, many of the stages wouldve been much easier with less carnage. More tire and more articulation makes for more traction.

A body lift isnt a bad option and it isnt redneck and can be a good solution for some. Ill agree that they have a bad rep for being used on 1/2 ton Chevys and CJ/ YJ's where you see 3-4 inches of space between the body and the frame. They usually do that since their style of wheeling is mud bogging where articulation and load carrying matters not as they just need to clear 44"+ Swampers. Lets say you want to run a small lift with a lighter spring rate since no ones truck is always going to be loaded down 100% of the time. A 1" or 2" spring lift with a 1" body lift might be a good solution. You can clear larger tires for under diff clearance and run a lighter spring rate since HD coils ride like crap when unloaded. Then, that one or two times a month when you actually do go out, you can load it down and not worry so much about rubbing under load as that body lift serves as a buffer in a way.

I would rather have that setup than ride around on the bumpstops all day long. The higher you go, suspension wise, the higher your center of gravity goes, especially when loaded down. Use a body lift to achieve some extra clearance and you can keep your CoG down and keep a little bit of stability. As for your comments about frame ears, Im running a 3 link, 255/85s and 4" of lift and I still bang my frame at times. It happens and if it were that worrisome, I would create some sort of slider for the areas most likely to hit. And yes, I do wheel my D1. Most people here trail ride/ "overland" so a small medium spring rate lift and a small body lift would make for a good solution to clear bigger tires. Bigger tires would allow for more clearance under the diffs and I would, personally, rather have less breakover and depend on my sliders than to bounce my axles off of everything. I like to wheel my D1 so Ive gone mostly suspension but entertain a body lift to gain a little more room to stuff my tires into the wells.

 

[David Harris]

Nowhere around here, East Coast, would something that small and that skinny make any kind of sense. I hate it when everyone starts talking about what was run in the Camel Trophy as some sort of universal reference. They dealt with basically stock trucks to keep the competition even and made some modifications (tying racks into the cage) for seriously overloaded conditions. No way would I run anything like what they ran anywhere around here. A 30" tall, 8" wide skinny tire just barely worked for them in many of the events. I bet if you gave them a D1 with 255/85s and 3" of lift, many of the stages wouldve been much easier with less carnage. More tire and more articulation makes for more traction.

What kind of terrain are you talking about where skinnies don't work well? If it's mud you're talking about, they are much superior to wider tires because they cut down to the surface underneath much better. In sand, wider tires might have an advantage if it's really deep. On rocks, the larger contact patch of a wider tire is an advantage.

They didn't go with basically stock trucks to keep the competition even, they could do that by doing the same mods on all of them. They did it to showcase the stock LR's capability, and to make the events more of a challenge of driving skill and teamwork over mechanical advantage. That's why the Camel Trophy is a valid reference to make when talking about LR's.

BTW: 215/85 is the same height as a 245/75, which is closer to 31 inches, not 30. 255/85 also qualifies as a skinny.

 

[AxeAngel]

On a rear bumper, that might be practical. On the front of a D2, probably a D1 as well, it's not going to be so easy because of the way the bumper mounts. You'd likely have to do a bit of fab work. Not a huge deal. But not something you'll pull off with just a drill and a 1/2" bit.

The front bumper on my truck was a prototype for a bumper that went into production. The truck that it was fabbed on had a 1-1.5" body lift there are two sets of holes drilled into my bumper that accommodate either stock body lift or the additional body lift. I'm pretty sure that guy knew what he was doing.

-Sam

 

[Viggen]

What kind of terrain are you talking about where skinnies don't work well? If it's mud you're talking about, they are much superior to wider tires because they cut down to the surface underneath much better. In sand, wider tires might have an advantage if it's really deep. On rocks, the larger contact patch of a wider tire is an advantage.

They didn't go with basically stock trucks to keep the competition even, they could do that by doing the same mods on all of them. They did it to showcase the stock LR's capability, and to make the events more of a challenge of driving skill and teamwork over mechanical advantage. That's why the Camel Trophy is a valid reference to make when talking about LR's.

BTW: 215/85 is the same height as a 245/75, which is closer to 31 inches, not 30. 255/85 also qualifies as a skinny.

Ill take a tire with a little more width for floating on top of the mud than something that will cut to the bottom and get me stuck faster. Ever watch a mud bog? Youre talking about 14"+ wide tires. If skinny tires are so superior, theyd be running them. Just so you know, you mentioned only one place where you think a skinny tire would work but then proceeded to list off areas where it would not work well. East Coast = deep mud, rocks, roots, etc... Wider is better and the 10.5" of 255 is going to be better than the 8" of a 215 around here, just like I stated. Not to mention the extra height to get over many more things with less stress and skinny pedal. I think you are also missing that the 245 is a WIDER tire, by more than an inch, than a 215.

If it were a valid reference, we wouldnt be talking about anything as they ran no real lift of any sort, let alone half the crap we count as essential, but just ran armor, cage, load carrying and recovery equipment. Thats about it. We would all be running LR springs and small tires and bounce off of every trail obstacle along the way if we stuck with their recipe. We all know what these can do stock but we also know what they can do with a little bit of work, which is what this thread is about. Again, who cares what size tire they ran in the Camel Trophy.

 

[David Harris]

If it were a valid reference, we wouldnt be talking about anything as they ran no real lift of any sort, let alone half the crap we count as essential, but just ran armor, cage, load carrying and recovery equipment. Thats about it. We would all be running LR springs and small tires and bounce off of every trail obstacle along the way if we stuck with their recipe. We all know what these can do stock but we also know what they can do with a little bit of work, which is what this thread is about. Again, who cares what size tire they ran in the Camel Trophy.

No offense, Viggen. But have you ever driven a stock Disco off-road? Didn't you buy yours already built? Don't slam the skinny tires until you've tried some. They give you a lot more control in mud. My advice to everyone who is just getting a Rover is to spend some time driving it off road in stock trim. You can learn much more about driving finesse that way, and in all likelihood, you will find that it will go just about everywhere with nothing more than some good tires. This goes for other 4x4's as well. When I was at Moab once, I saw an old guy doing all the 4+ trails with a stock CJ running 32's. As far as what the Camel Trophy trucks carried, and how they were equipped, who needs anything else?

David

 

[ini88]

Viggen is right. East Coast conditions need a slightly wider tire. CT is a nice example of a expo truck but you have to consider that this is how the British do it. They wheel totally different then we do in the US. Have you ever seen how they set up their trucks over there? really different looking.

Available tire choices over there were different back when CT was going on. Just because they choose a 7x16 tire back then doesn't mean it was the best choice. Maybe they went for a real stiff side wall to help with the weight over a wider, softer tire for mud. Conditions with your truck and terrain ALWAYS change

 

[David Harris]

Viggen is right. East Coast conditions need a slightly wider tire. CT is a nice example of a expo truck but you have to consider that this is how the British do it. They wheel totally different then we do in the US. Have you ever seen how they set up their trucks over there? really different looking.

Available tire choices over there were different back when CT was going on. Just because they choose a 7x16 tire back then doesn't mean it was the best choice. Maybe they went for a real stiff side wall to help with the weight over a wider, softer tire for mud. Conditions with your truck and terrain ALWAYS change

So you're saying the British drive through mud differently than we do, or that the mud in one of the rainiest countries is different than our mud? Their mud requires skinny tires compared to ours? Also, they were running these tires up to the late 90's in the CT. There were no other tires to choose from in Britain at that time? All of them were small and skinny?

 

[AxeAngel]

I dont want to clutter Scott's thread with a skinny tire war.

Oryx : come to the east coast and wheel in the carolina mud. Ask any of the guys on the east coast what a good setup is and they will all (Jeep, LR, Toy, Scout, you name it) tell you, "wide tires and lots of skinny pedal". In Moab BFG KM2s A/Ts are favored right, lots of tread good grip due to the slickrock, no need for an M/T.

So you're saying the British drive through mud differently than we do, or that the mud in one of the rainiest countries is different than our mud?

Mud isnt just as simple as you seem to think, there are lots of different types. What we have out here is clay and yes it is different from british mud. Ive lived in several continents and can honestly say that east coast clay mud is one of the worst.

-Sam

 

[Viggen]

No offense, Viggen. But have you ever driven a stock Disco off-road? Didn't you buy yours already built? Don't slam the skinny tires until you've tried some. They give you a lot more control in mud. My advice to everyone who is just getting a Rover is to spend some time driving it off road in stock trim. You can learn much more about driving finesse that way, and in all likelihood, you will find that it will go just about everywhere with nothing more than some good tires. This goes for other 4x4's as well. When I was at Moab once, I saw an old guy doing all the 4+ trails with a stock CJ running 32's. As far as what the Camel Trophy trucks carried, and how they were equipped, who needs anything else?

David

Yes, I have wheeled a stock Disco and this past weekend saw a RRC with nothing more than oversized tires, probably 31x10.50s, do some amazing things. I think you are glancing over one KEY thing in my statements: East Coast. A skinny tire will not do any favors for you out here. Illinois is not the Mid Atlantic. We have cambers, slopes, slick rock, water everywhere, roots that just happen to be smooth and slick all the time, and mud that seems to just stick to everything and is regularly hub deep on a good day (bad day, much deeper). An 8" wide tire will do nothing for you. Sure, you could air down for a wider foot print but even at that stage, your airing down might equal my footprint aired up. Think outside the Camel Trophy and look where you live and make the decision. I think that the CT leads people to LRs but what they ran there is not the benchmark as you seem to espouse. Come out here to my area and bring your ~30.2" x 8" tires and we will see who loses traction and bangs off of everything and who easily crawls over the same obstacle. You might make it over many of the obstacles but I will bet you money that it will require a much more aggressive driving style leading to more abuse on the drivetrain than someone with larger tires that have the height and width to idle over. Look at the CT as an example. Do you think they wouldve had to barrel into every single obstacle leading to broken axles, steering, transmissions, and bashed panels if they had a little more altitude and rubber? Doubt it. Makes for great watching but a thoroughly beat down truck. So I bought my D1 with a lot of the things already on it? I fail to see the disadvantage there. In fact, I see a HUGE advantage there. I have saved myself huge amounts of money and time as there is NO way you can build a Disco like mine for the amount I was able to buy it for. Sorry, thats a fact. In fact, I would do it all over again. Ive saved myself thousands of dollars. While you slowly build up your truck, Ill be out hitting the trails and feeling it out. Ive only had to go through it and fix some eccentricities that all owners, whether stock or built, will deal with in time anyway. You can stick with your spring isolators and Ill stick with my 3 link.

Viggen is right. East Coast conditions need a slightly wider tire. CT is a nice example of a expo truck but you have to consider that this is how the British do it. They wheel totally different then we do in the US. Have you ever seen how they set up their trucks over there? really different looking.

Available tire choices over there were different back when CT was going on. Just because they choose a 7x16 tire back then doesn't mean it was the best choice. Maybe they went for a real stiff side wall to help with the weight over a wider, softer tire for mud. Conditions with your truck and terrain ALWAYS change

Read the above...

 

[David Harris]

I dont want to clutter Scott's thread with a skinny tire war.

Oryx : come to the east coast and wheel in the carolina mud. Ask any of the guys on the east coast what a good setup is and they will all (Jeep, LR, Toy, Scout, you name it) tell you, "wide tires and lots of skinny pedal". In Moab BFG KM2s A/Ts are favored right, lots of tread good grip due to the slickrock, no need for an M/T.



Mud isnt just as simple as you seem to think, there are lots of different types. What we have out here is clay and yes it is different from british mud. Ive lived in several continents and can honestly say that east coast clay mud is one of the worst.

-Sam

I understand the differences in mud, but at least running off road in Illinois/Indiana clay mud, I've found skinny tires to be better than the wide ones as well. In the East coast, I've only wheeled in Florida mud, in which the skinnies worked well also. Don't know if that's different from up North. I used to live on a long poorly maintained dirt road, which was always deeply rutted and treacherous during Spring and in thunderstorms. In my Tahoe on wide tires I was always on the edge of sliding off because the tires would float around (basically hydroplane so much). In my Toyota truck with skinnies I could drive through there at 50 with perfect stability. They would cut right through. Much better steering control and stability. Another advantage of the skinnies, besides mud, is rolling resistance. Much less than wide tires giving better mileage. They also look good on Rovers in my opinion. I'll take you guys' word for the East coast conditions though.

 

[David Harris]

So I bought my D1 with a lot of the things already on it? I fail to see the disadvantage there. In fact, I see a HUGE advantage there. I have saved myself huge amounts of money and time as there is NO way you can build a Disco like mine for the amount I was able to buy it for. Sorry, thats a fact. In fact, I would do it all over again. Ive saved myself thousands of dollars. While you slowly build up your truck, Ill be out hitting the trails and feeling it out. Ive only had to go through it and fix some eccentricities that all owners, whether stock or built, will deal with in time anyway. You can stick with your spring isolators and Ill stick with my 3 link.

Not questioning the economic advantages of buying one already built, just that it doesn't give you the experience of what a stock one will do off road. Nor the opportunity to learn technique as well as a stock vehicle does, because a stock vehicle requires more driving skill to get through the same places. Therefore it's a great teacher. My truck is pretty much built. When I break something, I fix it or upgrade it. If/when I don't have enough spring capacity or something, I'll upgrade it. When I go on trips, I pack like I'm going backpacking. Why do I need anything more in a vehicle than when I'm hiking for a weekend or a month? (It's very liberating. I highly recommend trying it out some time.) Might throw some different food in, that's all. I'll save my money for gas, which unfortunately is an expensive proposition with these beasts.

David

 

[Viggen]

Not questioning the economic advantages of buying one already built, just that it doesn't give you the experience of what a stock one will do off road. Nor the opportunity to learn technique as well as a stock vehicle does, because a stock vehicle requires more driving skill to get through the same places. Therefore it's a great teacher. My truck is pretty much built. When I break something, I fix it or upgrade it. If/when I don't have enough spring capacity or something, I'll upgrade it. When I go on trips, I pack like I'm going backpacking. Why do I need anything more in a vehicle than when I'm hiking for a weekend or a month? (It's very liberating. I highly recommend trying it out some time.) Might throw some different food in, that's all. I'll save my money for gas, which unfortunately is an expensive proposition with these beasts.

David

Thats great but do you actually WHEEL your truck or do you only camp? Therein lies the difference. I learned technique many years ago on past trucks and am now just scratching the surface of what my current set up can do. Your "built" truck takes you down fire roads and trails and into campsites. For what you do, spring isolators for .75" of lift is great. For me, 4" with bigger tires and more flex is great.