Past the point of no return...
- Thread starter TangoBlue
- Start date
TangoBlue
American Adventurist
Yeah, I'd listen to what RocKrawler wrote, since he was there at the time. If you weren't involved then it's simply unfairly bashing a vendor; and one who is contributing to the industry and community. Personlly, I'm a capitalist - it's an American thing. Their entrepreneurial spirit is bringing quality products to the market at a good price. That's good enough for me.
Anyway... pictures. Just got back from PA to pick up an FJ55. I'll post some pictures I took this morning a little later but nothing too exciting. But I did prove just how powerful the 3RZ is with the pink slip I won... and, I can't report the offroading I did last night for fear of future prosecution.
I'll go by the shop tomorrow and we'll put it on the ramp and get some better pics flexed.
RocKrawler
Supporting Sponsor
Lookin good, but there's a gap in that wheel well that needs fixin' ! That 55 is sweet, is that Cam's new beast? If so tell him congratulations, and I now envy both your rigs (if not, I only envy yours Tim - so there). Really hoping to make it out to OX to see you guys again, we'll see what the boss says (the one at work, not the wife, shes on board with it).
4307
Adventurer
Wow, that FJ55 is pretty nice, one of my favorite body styles.
Nice to see the taco standing on all four. Now lets see the flex
I've always wanted an FJ55, and some day I may find one.
It's a toss up for me, find a FJ55 to restore,or an fj70 and transform that into a Outback Challenge style truck, or build a rat rod. I think I need a better paying job and a garage, to feed these dreams...LOL
Looking good!
Nice to see the taco standing on all four. Now lets see the flex
I've always wanted an FJ55, and some day I may find one.
It's a toss up for me, find a FJ55 to restore,or an fj70 and transform that into a Outback Challenge style truck, or build a rat rod. I think I need a better paying job and a garage, to feed these dreams...LOL
Looking good!
4Rescue
Expedition Leader
I LOVE 55's... THat one looks to be in GREAT shape compared to most that I've seen.
Your truck is looking great too... REAL tall, but great looking none the less eh. How's it ride??? I'm guessing pretty nice with all that travel eh. Are you running a sway-bar of any kind??? I've just seen some HORRIBLE things hapen with Linked C/O rigs at speed when NOT running them (even on short bursts between obstacles...).
Rockcrawler I'll take you at your word on this stuff. I can only speak to my experience several yeaars ago and it wasn't so good. I've ALWAYS had good exp. with Marlin and just as you say, having met him when I was down in Fresno I just like the idea of suporting him (John Bundrant - Of Allpro - I've met as well and he's an awesome guy too). I don't have a cruiser (YET) so with my 1st Gen 4Runner Marlin is a great vendor. AS I said I've never heard that TG's stuff is junk jusat alot of Internet squabling over various things and alot of bad press about CG (as I said I personaly don't share those views and I take what I read with a grain of salt eh still the truth is usualy somewhere in between so it's not great to just ignore what's said either ) I probably won't be buying TG stuff personaly but again, I've never heard it's BAD stuff. For me it's more of a business choice.
Your truck is looking great too... REAL tall, but great looking none the less eh. How's it ride??? I'm guessing pretty nice with all that travel eh. Are you running a sway-bar of any kind??? I've just seen some HORRIBLE things hapen with Linked C/O rigs at speed when NOT running them (even on short bursts between obstacles...).
Rockcrawler I'll take you at your word on this stuff. I can only speak to my experience several yeaars ago and it wasn't so good. I've ALWAYS had good exp. with Marlin and just as you say, having met him when I was down in Fresno I just like the idea of suporting him (John Bundrant - Of Allpro - I've met as well and he's an awesome guy too). I don't have a cruiser (YET) so with my 1st Gen 4Runner Marlin is a great vendor. AS I said I've never heard that TG's stuff is junk jusat alot of Internet squabling over various things and alot of bad press about CG (as I said I personaly don't share those views and I take what I read with a grain of salt eh
still the truth is usualy somewhere in between so it's not great to just ignore what's said either ) I probably won't be buying TG stuff personaly but again, I've never heard it's BAD stuff. For me it's more of a business choice.
RocKrawler
Supporting Sponsor
I worked with CG for about a year and a half, he's quite a piece of work, and being buddies with Marlin and a couple other guys up there I have plenty of insight of the situation there when he was around. I'll refrain from posting any more than that as he's no longer in the industry or a factor in their business, but he was responsible for the growth of both Marlin and TG, just the way he did it wasnt very ethical.
Marlin and Jon are both very cool guys but polar opposites in personality, I'd work for either one as they are both very business savvy with successful companies and innovative parts. I've never met Matt (owner of TG) but I can tell you from the size of his business he has got to be a smart cookie with good people, if they werent building good parts they could have never grown as big and strong a force in the industry as they have become, and talking to Tattoo up there they have some new stuff in the works that will make them even bigger.
Marlin and Jon are both very cool guys but polar opposites in personality, I'd work for either one as they are both very business savvy with successful companies and innovative parts. I've never met Matt (owner of TG) but I can tell you from the size of his business he has got to be a smart cookie with good people, if they werent building good parts they could have never grown as big and strong a force in the industry as they have become, and talking to Tattoo up there they have some new stuff in the works that will make them even bigger.
Hey TB,
Are all the connection to the axle, as well as the UCA to the LCA Johnny Joints / SREs?
If so, you're going to experience a TON of binding in front axle articulation.
You'll have no problem going up and down with the axle level, but in order to articulate at all, one of those arms need to extend/contract a small amount.
If you think about it, when your suspension droops, the axle rolls forward, and when it compresses, the axle rolls backward. so if one side is drooped, it is rolling the axle forward, and the other side is compressing, rolling the axle rearward. That's placing massive twisting forces on the axle housing. Most aftermarket manufacturers of this type of suspension (Rubicon Express' TJ Long Arm kit was one of the first, in the late 90's) deal with this by making one or more links in the suspension with rubber or poly bushings rather than a joint. Notice the Ford and LC factory radius arm suspensions have rubber bushings at the axle connections as well, granted they're probably not really intended for flex, but for comfort....However, the same basic physics still applies.
Some guys have also gotten around it by doing a 3 link (exact same design as your's but only have an upper control arm on the pumpkin side), by removing one upper for wheeling (not very functional for expo travel) or by having a slip joint with a locking pin for the long shaft side upper arm, and removing the pin for wheeling (Again, not ideal for expo travel)
Since you're not building a rockcrawler (Right? :coffeedrink, you won't be concerned with insane articulation, like putting your front and rear axle perpendicular to each other, so you don't really need a LOT of flex in your links.
If I were you, I would be integrating a rubber bushing at one of the connection points. Otherwise, you're going to end up eventually tearing off a mount, or breaking a weld. Personally, I would change out one connection point, to allow a bit of flex. I'd probably go with the connection from the passenger side upper to pass. side lower.
The solid mount on the driver side would control the axle castor as well as u-joint angle for on-road or high speed off-road 4wd use, while the one rubber bushing on the pass. side would allow just enough flex to keep from breaking welds and tearing off mounts.
Are all the connection to the axle, as well as the UCA to the LCA Johnny Joints / SREs?
If so, you're going to experience a TON of binding in front axle articulation.
You'll have no problem going up and down with the axle level, but in order to articulate at all, one of those arms need to extend/contract a small amount.
If you think about it, when your suspension droops, the axle rolls forward, and when it compresses, the axle rolls backward. so if one side is drooped, it is rolling the axle forward, and the other side is compressing, rolling the axle rearward. That's placing massive twisting forces on the axle housing. Most aftermarket manufacturers of this type of suspension (Rubicon Express' TJ Long Arm kit was one of the first, in the late 90's) deal with this by making one or more links in the suspension with rubber or poly bushings rather than a joint. Notice the Ford and LC factory radius arm suspensions have rubber bushings at the axle connections as well, granted they're probably not really intended for flex, but for comfort....However, the same basic physics still applies.
Some guys have also gotten around it by doing a 3 link (exact same design as your's but only have an upper control arm on the pumpkin side), by removing one upper for wheeling (not very functional for expo travel) or by having a slip joint with a locking pin for the long shaft side upper arm, and removing the pin for wheeling (Again, not ideal for expo travel)
Since you're not building a rockcrawler (Right? :coffeedrink
, you won't be concerned with insane articulation, like putting your front and rear axle perpendicular to each other, so you don't really need a LOT of flex in your links. If I were you, I would be integrating a rubber bushing at one of the connection points. Otherwise, you're going to end up eventually tearing off a mount, or breaking a weld. Personally, I would change out one connection point, to allow a bit of flex. I'd probably go with the connection from the passenger side upper to pass. side lower.
The solid mount on the driver side would control the axle castor as well as u-joint angle for on-road or high speed off-road 4wd use, while the one rubber bushing on the pass. side would allow just enough flex to keep from breaking welds and tearing off mounts.
TangoBlue
American Adventurist
That's good gouge Keating. We were talking about doing some of the same things you recommended yesterday morning. Watch for those changes.
We used Ballistic Joints all around. http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/Forged-Ballistic-Joints-Bushings_c_141.html
They did "3-link" it at the shop the other day by removing the PS UCA link, ramped it, and claimed it got a lot of flex but I didn't see it; we'll reproduce it today and get pics. Cam is thinking about pinning and sleeving the PS upper shaft link with a splined shaft. Agreed, not ideal for overlanding, but I don't see it as any more of an inconvenience than having to exit the vehicle to lock the front hubs for 4WD and "pull the pin."
Too bad I'm not really a rock crawler... thanks again for the detailed remarks -we'll be incorporating some of those observations.
We used Ballistic Joints all around. http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/Forged-Ballistic-Joints-Bushings_c_141.html
They did "3-link" it at the shop the other day by removing the PS UCA link, ramped it, and claimed it got a lot of flex but I didn't see it; we'll reproduce it today and get pics. Cam is thinking about pinning and sleeving the PS upper shaft link with a splined shaft. Agreed, not ideal for overlanding, but I don't see it as any more of an inconvenience than having to exit the vehicle to lock the front hubs for 4WD and "pull the pin."
Too bad I'm not really a rock crawler... thanks again for the detailed remarks -we'll be incorporating some of those observations.
Iron Pig Off Road
Supporting Sponsor
Hey TB,
Are all the connection to the axle, as well as the UCA to the LCA Johnny Joints / SREs?
If so, you're going to experience a TON of binding in front axle articulation.
You'll have no problem going up and down with the axle level, but in order to articulate at all, one of those arms need to extend/contract a small amount.
If you think about it, when your suspension droops, the axle rolls forward, and when it compresses, the axle rolls backward. so if one side is drooped, it is rolling the axle forward, and the other side is compressing, rolling the axle rearward. That's placing massive twisting forces on the axle housing. Most aftermarket manufacturers of this type of suspension (Rubicon Express' TJ Long Arm kit was one of the first, in the late 90's) deal with this by making one or more links in the suspension with rubber or poly bushings rather than a joint. Notice the Ford and LC factory radius arm suspensions have rubber bushings at the axle connections as well, granted they're probably not really intended for flex, but for comfort....However, the same basic physics still applies.
Some guys have also gotten around it by doing a 3 link (exact same design as your's but only have an upper control arm on the pumpkin side), by removing one upper for wheeling (not very functional for expo travel) or by having a slip joint with a locking pin for the long shaft side upper arm, and removing the pin for wheeling (Again, not ideal for expo travel)
Since you're not building a rockcrawler (Right? :coffeedrink
If I were you, I would be integrating a rubber bushing at one of the connection points. Otherwise, you're going to end up eventually tearing off a mount, or breaking a weld. Personally, I would change out one connection point, to allow a bit of flex. I'd probably go with the connection from the passenger side upper to pass. side lower.
The solid mount on the driver side would control the axle castor as well as u-joint angle for on-road or high speed off-road 4wd use, while the one rubber bushing on the pass. side would allow just enough flex to keep from breaking welds and tearing off mounts.
This is a great observation, but one that I have been planning for from the beginning. The suspension was designed to perform well on road and for most overlanding and minor trail riding. The simple removal of one of the upper links works but is not ideal for everyday use. What I have been planning was to make the upper passenger link to be splined so it can be greased and easily relocated with a pin.
TB & IPOR.
The spline and hitch pin is a good idea, if you're willing to live with it, having to unpin and repin. Personally, I probably wouldn't bother pulling the pin until I was twisted up and the pin would be stuck so I'd end up ripping off a mount while negotiating an obstacle.
I know that for my truck, my personal choice would be to just replace ONE connection with a rubber bushing. But to each his own.
Drive shaft or tractor PTO shaft slip spline would work to keep the holes aligned rotationally, keeping the twist in the rod ends, yet still allowing the variance in length.
The spline and hitch pin is a good idea, if you're willing to live with it, having to unpin and repin. Personally, I probably wouldn't bother pulling the pin until I was twisted up and the pin would be stuck so I'd end up ripping off a mount while negotiating an obstacle.
I know that for my truck, my personal choice would be to just replace ONE connection with a rubber bushing. But to each his own.
Drive shaft or tractor PTO shaft slip spline would work to keep the holes aligned rotationally, keeping the twist in the rod ends, yet still allowing the variance in length.
4Rescue
Expedition Leader
SO... A 4-link with no ability for one of the links to shrink and grow will break mounts or welds??? THat's interesting. WHat would happen if you made REAL beefy mounts etc. is it just a matter of time before SOMETHING folded and gave way like a link or that housing??? Is this because as the links cycle through their travel they change length effectively as in the arc of the link makes the arm ACT shorter at the height of it's travel. I'm starting to see what you mean. I made myself a litte Lego Technics 4-link this morning and I think I'm getting why this is... That makes me interested to go look at my friends rigs and see if they did anything to correct this. I like the idea of a splined "slip yoke" style link to cure this. Better anyway then a ruber deal that'll wear out and be of concern (or maybe I'm wrong on this and it's no concern at all???) I know that one frind has a Y-type 3 link to the top of his diff and his rig ARTICUALTES better then the other 4 linked (both on 2nd Gen 4Runners) but the 4 link (Both have a currie anti-rock style sway-bar) RIDES better and has better body control. I know it's the suapension design because I helped mthem do them at the same time and they both run the same coil-overs (not Fox's, I'm trying to thnk what brand)
Man all this fooling around and drooling over your rig Tango has made me REALLY want to SAS my 4Runner. Thing is I'm going to go with leaves and I REALLY would like to clearence the frame to keep it LOW or at least maybe 2-3 inches taller then it is right now. I'm also going to run OME leaves F/R but I need to find a longer set for the rear and move my rear's to the fronts. not really interested in Chevy's, I like the mil-wraping and quality of the OME's, and anything maye 3-4 in longer will match up really well with the front end IMO. Not going for massive artic. just want more durability and a matching 8" front diff with SOME added flex. It'd be nice to find an 85-frame to swap my 89 body over to b ut that's ALOT of work eh.
Cheers
DAve
Man all this fooling around and drooling over your rig Tango has made me REALLY want to SAS my 4Runner. Thing is I'm going to go with leaves and I REALLY would like to clearence the frame to keep it LOW or at least maybe 2-3 inches taller then it is right now. I'm also going to run OME leaves F/R but I need to find a longer set for the rear and move my rear's to the fronts. not really interested in Chevy's, I like the mil-wraping and quality of the OME's, and anything maye 3-4 in longer will match up really well with the front end IMO. Not going for massive artic. just want more durability and a matching 8" front diff with SOME added flex. It'd be nice to find an 85-frame to swap my 89 body over to b ut that's ALOT of work eh.
Cheers
DAve
Iron Pig Off Road
Supporting Sponsor
Dave,
This is not actually a 4 link at all. It is a 2 link with a pan-hard rod to locate the axle. The conversation at hand is how we are going to handle the axial rotation when one side goes up and the oposing side goes down. What seems to be the best answer may actually come down to removing one of the upper (bracing links if you will ) This how ever is a PITA so we are most likely going to go with the splined link idea and then pin it for ride height.
None the less Tango's truck rides amazingly well, and with the link taken out it almost ramps 850 on the rti ramp
Cam
GM IPOR
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4Rescue
Expedition Leader
Aha!!! Now I see. I wasn't thinking of the axial rotation with oposite side articualtion. I'd imagine a 4-link would be just the same though eh, the individual links have in different path and diferent centre-points that the "Arc" of the arm is based off eh. SO is this like a "Radius arm" set-up??? How does the 80-series combat this??? AND, how does the Panhard bar counteract this, does the "johnny joint" have enough rotatrional allowence to not bind up??? I can imagine that is get's to be MORE of a problem as the articulation increases (the rotation being a function of the path of the axle towards the extreme's of it's travel path and the rotation increasing exponentialy with travel). SO is it just not a problem so to say on "stock" rigs, are they limited with this in mind???
Thanks for the suspension lessons guy's...
Sorry to take your Build OT Tango Blue, but I guess this relates to your build so...
Cheers
Dave
TangoBlue
American Adventurist
No worries. A picture is worth a thousand words... and I have 32 of them. However, PhotoBucket will not let me into my account! I've done all the things in the FAQ, reset my password, and logged in with 2 different PCs and still no joy. I'll try again later.
I know it's not the same as out in the field, but it looked really flexy on the ramp.
I know it's not the same as out in the field, but it looked really flexy on the ramp.