Power System for Winter Use
- Thread starter SteevsyWeevsy92
- Start date
OllieChristopher
Well-known member
Hmm, never knew that. Let me explain what I'm speaking about in case I'm misunderstood. A solar generator is a battery bank that produces power when hooked up to solar power that generates a charge to the battery bank. IMHO solar power itself is also considered a solar generator.
The good part of these solar generators is they are not dependent on solar power alone. Marketing aside, I'll continue to call them what they are sold as. It's easier for me to remember. Powerpack /solar generator same thing to me. I roll with what it's advertised as long as solar power can be hooked to it as a power source
I respectfully cannot agree to that with present electrical components . That is 21 -27 years with a daily charge cycle . Lithium battery banks have not been available that long to test that theory. I do believe as technology moves forward it might be achievable. I don't think we are quite there yet.
Sorry to take your thread off track Steve. Looks like you have a really well setup system. I'm of the opinion that you add up your amps needed and get an inverter generator to make up the power difference. The new ones are pretty darn quiet and sip the fuel.
EDITED for spelling
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That is what this scammer-dominated industry is trying to sell as a cool marketing term.
Ignorant newbs get the idea it somehow has functionality like a real generator, actually producing power.
Which it does not, it just stores it, and maybe has charging, DC output conversion, meters & connectors built into the enclosure for convenience, but basically an overpriced battery in a box.
Often you're supposed to just throw the whole thing out, the limited battery inside isn't even user replaceable.
The actual power source does not need to be solar, they want people to think it's "green" when in fact nothing to do with solar, anymore than any other battery.
Now if a kit was sold with enough panels to recharge from empty to full in a day with less than ideal conditions, well maybe. . .
> Powerpack /solar generator same thing to me.
Great, appreciate that!
> Lithium battery banks have not been available that long to test that theory.
I know lots of LFP banks cycled daily for over 17 years, that have not lost more than a few % of Ah capacity.
Not talking about the much shorter-lived and fire-prone chemistries if unknown provenance often included in these portable powerpacks and drop-in 12V units
hence why I think they are poor value even if they might otherwise appear to meet your needs.
OllieChristopher
Well-known member
John,
A solar generator does produce power. It needs solar, vehicle alternator, or AC electricity charge to "fill it up". Just as a standard generator needs liquid fuel to fill it up. Both systems come in different sizes for individual needs. Both process and provide electricity. The end result out of the plug sockets has the same exact function on both units.
I loathe lengthy debates and disparate comments that do nothing but drive members away. I've looked back at some of your other postings and can see you like to debate and will do everything to disprove anything anyone says that is not in agreement to you. This is a disservice to other members who are here to learn and provide valuable and helpful information to the community.
I would recommend you to ease up a bit and allow others to share outlooks of what they have experienced. It would be smart to remember that low post counts or a differing opinions than your own does not define an "ignorant newb". The same can be said for differing terminology describing a solar generator. Being called a "hateful deceptive marketing BS term" is not conducive to a product description.
John I would courteously ask you to please refrain from using comments that would be considered trolling to get a member to react. Forum rules on this platform as I read them are: No Trolling. I encourage you to msg me via PM for any disagreements that cause strong feelings against an opinion of mine that might offend you.
I'll stop here and allow you have the last word if you wish in regards to your opposing viewpoint after this posting. I'm very curious as to what Steve is going to choose in regards to aux power in the winter months.
Thank You
Chris
Back on topic? Hopefully?
Steve, Propane generators are another option that is gaining in popularity. They burn clean and you don't have to lug around gasoline. Just a few simple fittings to hook up to your existing bottles. Keep in mind it does produce about 27% less efficiency than gasoline so less "hours to the gallon". Just another way to "skin the cat" if you will.
If you have an existing gas generator you can actually modify it to run on both propane and gas. The key to it (and most expensive part) is the vacuum controlled flow rate regulator. You can easily buy a kit for about 100 bucks or design one your own. I remember in the 70's as a teen driving my bosses car that ran on both gas and propane. You have options!!
We will continue to disagree then, that does not make me a troll, I am sincere in my posts, genuinely trying to educate, not calling you a noob.
I appreciate your allowing me the last word, that term is abhorrent and should be stamped out.
vtsoundman
OverAnalyzer
Never parallel connect multiple MPPT solar controllers to the same solar array unless they are designed for it. In the case of Victron or Kisae, don't connect multiple controllers to same array. Multiple controllers can be connected to the same batteries, just not the same set of solar panels....
Just a quick clarification - doing it over again, I'd run a Kisae 1230 and a Kisae 1250 in parallel. Two 1250s in parallel is too much draw for my stock alternator (while running nominal loads).
Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
@john61ct , I think I found a "Gatorade Generator" for you. See:
Just connect it to something that creates Gatorade (and ice?) and you should be good to go!
... ..............................
I think the term "solar generator" is very deceptive, and very dishonest, marketing. I distrust any company that uses the term.
I encourage the OP, @SteevsyWeevsy92 , to avoid any company that uses the marketing term "solar generator".
..............................
@john61ct , I know there is one thread that touches on the problem,
"Solar Generator"
I know I'm not the only one here who is a little bit annoyed by this term that seems to have cropped up for the plethora of portable power packs out there. :rolleyes: Nevertheless, there certainly seem to be a lot of them out there. Look at what shows up on my Amazon feed: I'm assuming...
expeditionportal.com
but, perhaps you might start a thread with a good title and the reasons why "solar generator" is deceptive and dishonest. Such a thread would make it easy for you, and other forum members, to simply post a link to your thread to educate any reader who might be mislead by the marketing term "solar generator".
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Drive on Parkways
Park on Driveways
Solar Generator
Thinking logic has anything to do with words used.... priceless.
Many ads make explicit statements along the lines of
buy this ("green" silent, lighter) "kind of generator" INSTEAD OF, you won't need to buy / carry a (big heavy dirty noisy polluting) FF-powered one.
Mind you I've been a chronic tree hugger since the 70's, a huge fan and user of wind, hydro and solar since the 80's lived full time completely off grid for decades.
Maybe why I'm a bit more passionate on the topic compared to most.
buy this ("green" silent, lighter) "kind of generator" INSTEAD OF, you won't need to buy / carry a (big heavy dirty noisy polluting) FF-powered one.
Mind you I've been a chronic tree hugger since the 70's, a huge fan and user of wind, hydro and solar since the 80's lived full time completely off grid for decades.
Maybe why I'm a bit more passionate on the topic compared to most.
OllieChristopher
Well-known member
Steve, I would also consider to check out your current system and make sure it was hooked up to be as efficient as possible. A possible tune up if you will. I have noticed on more than a few solar systems that are not as efficient as they can be. Simple things like upgrading the wire size, and hooking up multiple panels in series or parallel/series to get the best use of solar power you already have. A lot of times there is room for improvement.
Most people do a simple panel array in parallel and rob the system of voltage. I highly recommend you look at your specs and do the math a few times. You might find that by simply sizing the wire or swapping over to a series to increase voltage will give you more bang for the buck. You also have to be wary of the charge controller and boost current used in designing it.
I have found hooking up solar power electricity is very similar to what we did when powering up events with generators. We sometimes could downsize a generator and add a transformer for equipment that required high amps for startup only. Or we use a high voltage long run of small wire to a transformer stepped down to low voltage big wire for the shorter runs.
You might even find that that stand alone portable solar generator might be the best choice for your needs and ease of your build. I noticed that they are advancing in efficiency all the time. Some of the big units like Goal Zero Yeti have a 3000 watt hour (about 280 AH) capacity packaged nicely for a simple "plug and play". You can take the physical size specs off of a few different ones and size out your floor plan to fit.
If you decide on either a solar generator or permanent mount battery pack you need to factor in how many cycles you want batteries to go. Some of the cheaper solar generators are built with lithium nickel manganese witch have a lower cycle count and not as stable as lithium iron ones.
It's all about your budget and how much custom work you want to do on your own.
I would be very interested in what other guys here have done to modify their systems or other optional power sources to help through the winter months. I imagine with less sunlight there are a lot of hard choices and compromises that need to be considered to keep power levels down when "off the grid".
Most people do a simple panel array in parallel and rob the system of voltage. I highly recommend you look at your specs and do the math a few times. You might find that by simply sizing the wire or swapping over to a series to increase voltage will give you more bang for the buck. You also have to be wary of the charge controller and boost current used in designing it.
I have found hooking up solar power electricity is very similar to what we did when powering up events with generators. We sometimes could downsize a generator and add a transformer for equipment that required high amps for startup only. Or we use a high voltage long run of small wire to a transformer stepped down to low voltage big wire for the shorter runs.
You might even find that that stand alone portable solar generator might be the best choice for your needs and ease of your build. I noticed that they are advancing in efficiency all the time. Some of the big units like Goal Zero Yeti have a 3000 watt hour (about 280 AH) capacity packaged nicely for a simple "plug and play". You can take the physical size specs off of a few different ones and size out your floor plan to fit.
If you decide on either a solar generator or permanent mount battery pack you need to factor in how many cycles you want batteries to go. Some of the cheaper solar generators are built with lithium nickel manganese witch have a lower cycle count and not as stable as lithium iron ones.
It's all about your budget and how much custom work you want to do on your own.
I would be very interested in what other guys here have done to modify their systems or other optional power sources to help through the winter months. I imagine with less sunlight there are a lot of hard choices and compromises that need to be considered to keep power levels down when "off the grid".
SteevsyWeevsy92
New member
This thread has been very educational, I truly appreciate everyone taking the time out of their day to talk shop. I'm the type that needs to ruminate on things and turn over every possible stone before I can quite say I've made a final decision on things, but this is where think I'm headed.
I'm a huge fan of redundancy in any kind of system that I consider critical. So both Kisae and REDARC systems are appealing to me for their ability to do solar as well as DC-DC, even if they are separate from my primary solar array. The setup I have concocted in my head after all the replies here is to put one of the two aforementioned units between the alternator and the house, and connect a primary solar array on the roof to a separate MPPT controller. Im thinking that since I won't always be able to guarantee the panels that are mounted to the roof will be clear of snow or have a desirable angle towards the sun, it would be cool to utilize the MPPT capability of the REDARC/Kisae for a foldable or otherwise modular panel array that I can deploy for tracking/backup purposes. I'm also trying to consider whether there is any worthwhile benefit to having the primary array wired in series to keep voltage at a viable level during low light, whilst using the secondary array to sort of make up for where a series array will fall short (ie by aiming it directly at the sun, or just knowing it'll always be clear of snow when I deploy it, and can be placed anywhere free of shadow). I just don't know if that's practical though, and in all my research it seems that for every 10 questions about series vs. Parallel, there are 10 different strongly worded opinions on which works best based on each person's individual experience, so its tough for a laymen like myself to be 100% sure without finding my own answer in the field, would love to read some more spirited discourse on the subject though!
Theres a few other things I'm still trying to work out. For one, am I putting too much emphasis on the pv array in the context of winter use? All the panels in the world, wired any which way, won't do a whole hell of a lot if they are covered in snow, though it'll definitely be nice to have in the summer. I'm for sure going to have a solid solar setup either way, but I want to temper my expectations as far as winter is concerned. So perhaps I'm underestimating my reliance on non-solar power in the winter, in which case I'm thinking about the cost-benefit ratio of wiring two DC-DCs together in parallel to get say, 80-100a out of the alternator. If I was just going with one DC-DC I'd probably go for a 50-60a unit, the various 100-120+ units out there seem potentially risky if it they additive with my solar array when that is working as well, considering the max c-rate of my battery bank. It should never get that cold where the batteries are, but should never and will never are two different things in my book. I'm an over-preper (if that wasn't obvious). I also wanted to clarify further with vtsoundman (or anyone with 2 cents on the matter), when we say not to hook up two MPPT's to the same solar array, does that mean that if you had two REDARCs/Kisaes wired in parallel you should avoid using the MPPT capability at all, or does that mean you just make sure that any panel its hooked up to is only wired through one of the two DC-DCs in parallel? I'm unclear on how independently the various parts of that system operate.
On top of all that, once its all sorted, I'll plan to have a gas/propane/diesel generator available for if were going seriously deep, for an extended period of time and all bets are off.
Big thanks to everyone again! Even the tangential discussions have been a good read. I'm so tempted to dip my toe in on the 'solar generator' debate because... Well I guess I love a good debate, regardless of my stock in the issue. I'm sure I'll end up with egg on my face though, and I'm new here so I'm gonna hold off for now
With Victron's revolutionary pricing model
it became possible to dedicate a SC per panel, which is ideal for reducing losses due to partial shading
allows you to use wildly different panels to maximise your wattage per sqft in a mobile context
make use of modern efficient top quality 40+V panels designed for home installs, sometimes available at great prices locally left over from big projects where they ship them in by the pallet
avoiding the cr^ppy mass market "12V" ones VoC under 25Voc.
The key to good value is matching the SC to the panel, so a cheap 75/15 in a 12Vnom system gets paired with a panel around 240W, maybe 300W if you don't mind a bit of overpaneling got he panels super cheap.
Or go up to the 100/20, just the cost of a McD meal more.
You end up with a **far** superior system compared with Renogy or Grape, whatever panels you can buy in big box or just order online with cheap shipping
it became possible to dedicate a SC per panel, which is ideal for reducing losses due to partial shading
allows you to use wildly different panels to maximise your wattage per sqft in a mobile context
make use of modern efficient top quality 40+V panels designed for home installs, sometimes available at great prices locally left over from big projects where they ship them in by the pallet
avoiding the cr^ppy mass market "12V" ones VoC under 25Voc.
The key to good value is matching the SC to the panel, so a cheap 75/15 in a 12Vnom system gets paired with a panel around 240W, maybe 300W if you don't mind a bit of overpaneling got he panels super cheap.
Or go up to the 100/20, just the cost of a McD meal more.
You end up with a **far** superior system compared with Renogy or Grape, whatever panels you can buy in big box or just order online with cheap shipping
If you do get an inverter gennie, size your mains charger to draw about 80% of its output for decent longevity. 30-40A per "1000W" rating should be fine.
With a Honda or Yamaha, might be able to push that to 50A?
LFP chemistry is key if you don't have plenty of solar as well, can get back to full in just a couple hours every few days.
With lead even "high" CAR chemistries, it takes at least 7 hours to get back to 100% as per the batt's endAmps spec.
LFP never needs to get to Full, in fact best to not sit there long, opposite of lead which will get lifespan grossly shortened under PSOC abuse.
With a Honda or Yamaha, might be able to push that to 50A?
LFP chemistry is key if you don't have plenty of solar as well, can get back to full in just a couple hours every few days.
With lead even "high" CAR chemistries, it takes at least 7 hours to get back to 100% as per the batt's endAmps spec.
LFP never needs to get to Full, in fact best to not sit there long, opposite of lead which will get lifespan grossly shortened under PSOC abuse.
If you drive a fair bit every week between your off grid layovers and don't carry a genset, it's worth spending the money tapping into alternator output.
But of course if you see overnight shore power every few days, no input source is required, just beef up your House bank to match your consumption and recharge from mains.
Of course no matter which of these three sources are available, you need to reduce your average Ah per 24hr consumption to about 10% less than what you produce / collect.
Any investment in reducing your energy consumption will pay off 10x faster than paying for higher energy production.
While off grid your life is different from S&B home living, buying appliances designed for mains usage is just silly, especially in the U.S.
But of course if you see overnight shore power every few days, no input source is required, just beef up your House bank to match your consumption and recharge from mains.
Of course no matter which of these three sources are available, you need to reduce your average Ah per 24hr consumption to about 10% less than what you produce / collect.
Any investment in reducing your energy consumption will pay off 10x faster than paying for higher energy production.
While off grid your life is different from S&B home living, buying appliances designed for mains usage is just silly, especially in the U.S.
The SC circuitry included in DCDC chargers is great for very limited usage, like keeping a Starter batt or portable PowerPack topped up for lights, fans and a couple screen devices, or a maybe very efficient portable 12V compressor fridge.
However going past, say 50-80Ah per day consumption, you really are better off with better quality more efficient and full featured controllers dedicated to that function.
However going past, say 50-80Ah per day consumption, you really are better off with better quality more efficient and full featured controllers dedicated to that function.