Power System for Winter Use

john61ct

Adventurer
In winter conditions your PV array will produce **much** fewer Ah per day per sq ft

Like even 20% of summertime production.

Some say that makes solar "impractical" in arctic conditions.

In reality it just means you need to be **extra** dedicated to reducing your daily energy consumption by clever design and shopping choices, making efficiency top priority, using propane whenever possible

as well as putting out as many kW of panels as possible, far more than you would for summer usage.

Of course that may depend on how big your roof is.

A genset of course may appear to be an infinite source, but believe me the running costs of running it more than an hour or two per day get horrific pretty quickly

so solar & alternator - and energy conservation most of all - is well used to reduce genset runtime as much as possible.
 

OllieChristopher

Well-known member
in all my research it seems that for every 10 questions about series vs. Parallel, there are 10 different strongly worded opinions on which works best based on each person's individual experience, so its tough for a laymen like myself to be 100% sure without finding my own answer in the field, would love to read some more spirited discourse on the subject though!

Steve, I highly recommended that you do not listen to anyones opinion on anything that the math will prove otherwise detrimental to your needs. Math equations trump everything else when it comes to engineering. Math is truth and does not lie or have an opinion. But as with anything there is a compromise. This is where the strong opinions come out in spades on any subject matter.

Ultimately it will be up to you what you decide on. DCDC, alternators, solar generators, inverters, transformers, rectifiers, solar panels, gas generators, etc. All of these have value to individual needs.

I get that you are trying to come up with a solid solution to life without solar in the winter months. I'm following this thread just to see what others are doing besides what I have done all my life. My off grid travel has always consisted of no electricity and non perishable foods to get me through a week or two of camping. I am now looking for a little more comfort when out in the boonies.

With technology at present my needs are going to be a small inverter gas generator as a backup source. Some of the small 2000 watt ones can run full tilt for 12 hours on less than 4 gallons of fuel.

As the tech progresses these solar generators length of charge to length of use ratios are getting closer. I'm willing to bet that the up and coming engineering wizards are going to design a battery that is going to easily handle massive amps pumped into it for quicker charging than ever. It's already happening with electric cars and motorcycles.

I think you are very smart thinking outside the box for an alternative power source.
 

vtsoundman

OverAnalyzer
I also wanted to clarify further with vtsoundman (or anyone with 2 cents on the matter), when we say not to hook up two MPPT's to the same solar array, does that mean that if you had two REDARCs/Kisaes wired in parallel you should avoid using the MPPT capability at all, or does that mean you just make sure that any panel its hooked up to is only wired through one of the two DC-DCs in parallel? I'm unclear on how independently the various parts of that system operate.

;)

Ah...ok...sorry... solar controllers come in two forms - MPPT and non-mppt.


MPPT controllers (just Google the term) generate the most energy from the array by always operating at the max power point of the array (provided the load can accept it).

Non-mppt controllers are not worth the time or money to discuss...good for where money is primary concern and you have 1 very small panel (like battery tender style).

One solar controller per array ... period. One Kisae/Victron/Redarc...Doesn't matter if MPPT or not. (An array can be one panel or many panels).

A solar array has a I-V curve (current vs voltage) for a set of conditions - the I-V curve changes with temperature and irradiance (solar intensity).

The controller dictates where on the I-V curve the array operates, but not the I-V curve itself.

Multiple arrays, each controlled by a dedicated controller, can be connected to the same load (or battery).

More than one controller on an array, and the controllers get confused and up fighting the other (unless they are so designed).

Series vs parallel -

lots of misinfo out there, mostly I suspect due to folks only having one or two data points (their own systems) and an inability/time/money to test the various conditions ... hence the variety of opinions.

It's very simple: in a small array, if modules have different irradiance levels (shade, bird shoot, etc), put them in parallel. If you have a long way to go / have need to get the voltage up (to get the controllers to operate most efficiently or overcome I^2 * R losses) run them in series.

It is generally perfectly acceptable to run series-parallel panel configurations (ex: 2 in series then put those in parallel with other strings). It is not acceptable to run parallel/series...(2 in parallel then put those in series).

Large arrays are built with up to ~20 modules in series strings with many many of these strings in parallel.

Small arrays are usually built with them all in parallel or 2-3 in a series string that are then paralleled with other strings of the same length.

Happy to explain the engineering behind the above with specific questions, but there is plenty on the web to help understand why the above is true.

(I design all sorts of large solar and solar+storage systems for a living).

As an aside, Victron makes the best solar controllers for small arrays (RV, marine, off grid, etc) hands down. Getting above a few kW, things change...

The built MPPT function of the Kisae is a nice to have. And they really work well. There is little reason to run dedicated external controller UNLESS you want to support a load from the DCDC AnD the solar array at the same time (Kisae won't do that...not sure about Redarc. I don't use Redarc very much as they have very little ability to program/customize various operating parameters. Fine for 'stock' systems, not so much for engineered systems.).

I have seen about 1-5% variance in overall energy production between Kisae and Victron, with the Victron always generating more. Really too small to matter. I use the Kisae MPPT in combination with the Victrons when running multiple small arrays in different spots (i.e., one array on the roof, one portable)...or if on different sides of the van)...

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
 
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OllieChristopher

Well-known member
Series vs parallel -

lots of misinfo out there, mostly I suspect due to folks only having one or two data points (their own systems) and an inability/time/money to test the various conditions ... hence the variety of opinions.

That is a very good way of explaining it!!


As an aside, Victron makes the best solar controllers for small arrays (RV, marine, off grid, etc) hands down. Getting above a few kW, things change...

I am happy now that I just purchased that brand for my small setup. I got the 75/15 for my use. I almost went with a Renogy but wanted the ability to set the controller to my personal parameters. And the Victron units have been around a while.
 

vtsoundman

OverAnalyzer
I am happy now that I just purchased that brand for my small setup. I got the 75/15 for my use. I almost went with a Renogy but wanted the ability to set the controller to my personal parameters. And the Victron units have been around a while.

Awesome! Renogy has sold (brand labeled) their mid grade solar panels the longest....and has recently started rebranding everything else....and it shows. Their electronics aren't great...in time, maybe, but for now, they are still in the teething stage.

Victrons are fun and proven...they have a really well integrated ecosystem and a great BT app too. They have teething too, but not quite like Renogy.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
 

shirk

Active member
Some good info in this thread about the available solar energy in BC/AB/YK snow country in winter.

 

vtsoundman

OverAnalyzer
the batteries will be inside, which will be heated pretty much full time through the season, because we will be living out of the thing full time. So it should never really approach 32 in there. If it does it means the heater is blown and we’re making a beeline south/down to protect our own skin. A backup heating situation is something we will have for temporary emergencies, we’ll be relying on an espar or propex primarily.

I do like the idea of keeping the bank modular though for unforeseen situations. If we are experiencing a catastrophic issue and need to find other accommodations while we sort it out it would be good to be able to shut the heat off and grab the batteries, so I appreciate the suggestion.

I’ll also have to look up some graphs about c-rate as it pertains to temperature, that is good info to have. Our batteries have protections built in regarding temperature as well so theoretically catastrophe can be avoided, but depending on how much c rate drops at low but above freezing temps, it’ll be good to have safeguards or a plan to mitigate over charging. We don’t plan on giving it the full one 150 it can theoretically take all at once, even in perfect conditions, so there will be a safety margin built in. Thanks!

300Ah of Lithium is quite a bit! In fact, it might too much, the perfect amount or too little.

Your posts are a little hard to track - best to write it up and post and attachment with a schematic if you want high quality feedback.

Letting a Li battery bank get cold is no big deal - just don't charge it. Keep it above min storage temp and you will be fine. Sounds like you are using pre-packaged LI batteries - some are ok, some are not. None are great for large banks...none are great for the price vs value/energy/power (regardless of size).

Batteries in a box (i.e. goal zero, jackery, etc) are priced at a huge premium for what they provide (all in one box). Goal Zero is the most egregious. All of them arent easily serviceable. Great if you aren't building a purpose built vehicle.

Depending on your inverter loads, the Ah of the bank can be driven by peak electrical loads. Running a 1500W kettle can bring a 100Ah Lithium cell to its knees (and certainly will a 100Ah Lead Acid (LA) battery).

I run a TF130 for fridge, an 18 or 40QT Dometic as a freezer, a 900w microwave, and an electric induction kettle. I have a 3kw Xantrex Inverter/Charger. DC charging is via Kisae 1230,.Victron 30A Orion, Victron 75/20 MPPT. Monitored via Victron 712. Contactors allow me to fully isolate the system for various charging and shut down means.

I usually see about 30-50Ah depending on how much tea/coffee consumed per day. The 1500W Bonavita kettle use surprisingly little energy and takes 2-3 min to get water up to temp...The microwave may run for 10min or so total per day.

Throw in a 8kw Chinese diesel heater, and figure on another 10-30Ah or so depending on how cold/windy and how often the door is open...(we have a passenger poptop...so insulation is a bit of a joke).

We pre-make/make large batches for most of our foods and reheat them via microwave or boiled water (vacuum sealed bags souvide style). Burritos of all kinds freeze really well (sausage/egg/potatoes, veggie, bean, etc; smoked/shredded barbacoa beef, pulled pork, brisket, etc; pasta of all kinds: stir fry, etc). Reduces time spent cooking/cleaning/etc - sometimes it is nice to just toss a quick meal in the microwave (and have it not be a salty expensive commercial mess).

Having the larger fridge/freezer is awesome for a family/group a friends - cold drinks, ice, ice cream, condiments, plenty of produce etc. Leftovers are a nice treat too.

I've been using single burner stoves to boil/sautee/etc. I'll be switching to an induction cooktop to try for a bit.

We also have a 6 gallon water heater that has a 750W 120V electric coil - that will be rarely used as it has coolant loop in it.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
 

john61ct

Adventurer
pre-packaged LI batteries - some are ok, some are not. None are great for large banks...none are great for the price vs value/energy/power (regardless of size).

Batteries in a box (i.e. goal zero, jackery, etc) are priced at a huge premium for what they provide (all in one box). Goal Zero is the most egregious. All of them arent easily serviceable.
Thanks for that!

> 300Ah of Lithium is quite a bit

About comparable to 500Ah in a lead bank.

Call it medium for a small mobile living space, plenty for an all-electric galley **if** you can refill on demand daily,

large enough for a few cloudy days if your fridge and PC are your biggest consumers.

IMO using electricity to heat up your water should really only be done when you have plenty of surplus
 

OllieChristopher

Well-known member
Awesome! Renogy has sold (brand labeled) their mid grade solar panels the longest....and has recently started rebranding everything else....and it shows. Their electronics aren't great...in time, maybe, but for now, they are still in the teething stage.

Victrons are fun and proven...they have a really well integrated ecosystem and a great BT app too. They have teething too, but not quite like Renogy.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

Funny you mention rebranding of the Renogy. I was wondering about that. I have seen at least two or three different brand controllers on Amazon that look identical to the Renogy except for color. The market is flooded with mind boggling choices!!

IMO using electricity to heat up your water should really only be done when you have plenty of surplus

Heck I never considered an electric water heater for out in the boonies use. I always imagined that a small propane water heater is what the general population uses in RV's.
 

john61ct

Adventurer
Yes. But some think they want to go all electric, no propane at all.

Like those dreaming of running aircon off solar storage overnight.

In this case keyed off the tea kettle, espresso maker same idea.

Sure **can** be done, in some use cases even practical

but mostly-solar in harsh winter off grid living, with a small roof area? naah. . .
 

vtsoundman

OverAnalyzer
Yes. But some think they want to go all electric, no propane at all.

Like those dreaming of running aircon off solar storage overnight.

In this case keyed off the tea kettle, espresso maker same idea.

Sure **can** be done, in some use cases even practical

but mostly-solar in harsh winter off grid living, with a small roof area? naah. . .
The electrical heating element is nice to use in a pinch...otherwise the coolant loop is all that's needed. I'll be adding a dieselD5 coolant heater at some point in the future. Consumes 60-75Ah or so...just fine for occasional use.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
 

spressomon

Expedition Leader
Our system is similar to what @vtsoundman listed. Using self-assembled 400Ah/6500w LFP banks (Fortune 3.2v cells, 2C constant, 6C 10-sec peak) to power our little trailer. Isotherm 6-gal 120v/750w water heater, microwave, induction burner and a small compressor drawer fridge/freezer, a MaxxAir ceiling/roof fan and a Xantrex 3000w sine wave inverter are the biggest electricity consumers. I'm re-doing solar so we'll have 800w permanent atop the roof and another 340w ala Merlin foldable if/when. Sterling BB1260 DC-2-DC for help when driving. And Victron MPPT controllers to manage the PVs.

So far it all works. And, although I did the math on the front side, there has been some adjustment to the input (as well as judicious use of output) via real world. I think the biggest learning curve was getting to know actual PV output versus lab ratings which are BS IMHO. Having said that the Merlin panels put out exactly or a little more than their published specs; not so much for the various hard panels I've used/using over the years. No substitute for shake down cruises...for all kinds of projects ;).
 
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llamalander

Well-known member
If you're enamored of REDARC, check to see how well the programming will deal with cold, I seem to recall people having problems with non-Australian conditions like having to charge at >40º...
 

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