Pro-Link Factor 55

[opie]

If you don't see a need for a product then that is perfectly OK. Saying a company is calling people "idiots" when they are not is not OK.

For the average winch user then no, a safety-style thimble is not reusable per se with their capabilities

While you did not call the "average winch user" idiots... You did imply such by saying that performing a splice is above their capabilities. The only way it would be above ones capacity to perform a splice on synthetic line is a lack of knowledge of the proper bury length for a given diameter. Which is widely available on the internet and information that I freely turn people to and give out myself.

You then imply that a field splice is inferior to a bench splice, suggesting that somehow the "bench" has some sort of ability to allow one to properly perform the splice.

Where did you learn how to splice Class II, 12 strand line? What makes your bench perform better splices than someone out in the field using the specifications from the manufacturer of the product?

 

[Eventhough]

While you did not call the "average winch user" idiots... You did imply such by saying that performing a splice is above their capabilities. The only way it would be above ones capacity to perform a splice on synthetic line is a lack of knowledge of the proper bury length for a given diameter. Which is widely available on the internet and information that I freely turn people to and give out myself.

You then imply that a field splice is inferior to a bench splice, suggesting that somehow the "bench" has some sort of ability to allow one to properly perform the splice.

Where did you learn how to splice Class II, 12 strand line? What makes your bench perform better splices than someone out in the field using the specifications from the manufacturer of the product?

Grab someone in the field and say "here, splice this." Most won't know how to do it properly. Some will, more won't. I stand by that. More people who have synthetic winch line do not know how to do a field repair off the top of their head than those who could. That is not implying someone was an idiot. Do not twist my statements and do NOT put words in my mouth.

The bench = a controlled environment. The field = an uncontrolled environment. A line can be spliced in the field perfect but repairs are easier in a controlled environment with the proper tools. That is a simple concept. The field = often hot, often cold, often wet, often dirty, often muddy, often less tools, often in a hurry, often stuck, often not level, often blocking the trail, often etc etc etc. The bench = taking your time to do it right with the right tools and reference materials. I've rolled under many a truck in the field doing repairs. Even back at camp it is never as easy, complete, or well done as in a shop/at home. The same principles hold true to repairing a winch line as do for other repairs in the field.

I'm not going engage you in an e-argument as you attack me. I even edited a bunch out of this post to try and get things back on topic. I'm asking you nicely. Do not put words in my mouth and lets get this thread back on topic. If you want to continue attacking me and putting words in my mouth then you have my phone number.

 

[opie]

Grab someone in the field and say "here, splice this." Most won't know how to do it properly. Some will, more won't. I stand by that. More people who have synthetic winch line do not know how to do a field repair off the top of their head than those who could. That is not implying someone was an idiot. Do not twist my statements and do NOT put words in my mouth.

Im not arguing that, just the notion you put forth that it is above their capabilities. Most are capable of doing it, but lack the knowledge to do it correctly. There is a difference. I personally have spent a fair amount of time, time that I gave away freely and you have been one of the benefactors of this information, educating folks on how to deal with the very expensive material they have purchased. To see you suggest (and take it however you wish) that it is at all difficult to splice line, I feel compelled to comment on.

SO while technically you are correct, "here, splice this line" and most probably would not do it correctly, the only thing they lack is the knowledge. No different than if I ask someone that's never replaced a thermostat to do so. They have the ability, just not the knowledge. And since you recognize the knowledge part is lacking, how about you put out some of that free information you received, to your customers.

The bench = a controlled environment. The field = an uncontrolled environment. A line can be spliced in the field perfect but repairs are easier in a controlled environment with the proper tools. That is a simple concept. The field = often hot, often cold, often wet, often dirty, often muddy, often less tools, often in a hurry, often stuck, often not level, often blocking the trail, often etc etc etc.

Again, technically you are correct. But you are splitting hairs. We are not talking about changing a tire or welding on a frame in a mud hole. We are talking about taking a standing part of a line and inserting it into the working end. But you do highlight a good point of synthetic over wire. It is far easier to repair synthetic in the field than wire rope. Which is why I believe those that sell synthetic should also make available to their customers the proper method to repair it.

The bench = taking your time to do it right with the right tools and reference materials. I've rolled under many a truck in the field doing repairs. Even back at camp it is never as easy, complete, or well done as in a shop/at home. The same principles hold true to repairing a winch line as do for other repairs in the field.

And we are not talking about replacing a timing belt or ball joint. Please cease furthering the notion that splicing line is difficult.

I'm not going engage you in an e-argument as you attack me. I even edited a bunch out of this post to try and get things back on topic. I'm asking you nicely. Do not put words in my mouth and lets get this thread back on topic. If you want to continue attacking me and putting words in my mouth then you have my phone number.

Steve,

It is not my intention to attack you. As I stated above, Ive spent a fair bit of my time and resources showing the average winch user just how easy it is to use and fix the product they have purchased. You know exactly how small my business is and you have far more "presence" than I do. I encourage you to use that to let your customers know that what they have spent $250+ dollars on does not need to be fixed by a "professional." One of the biggest advantages of synthetic line is it CAN be repaired by the average winch user. If you recognize its a matter of ignorance, then spread the information. If you choose to not spread that information, please stop hurting my business by suggesting that its at all difficult or needs to be done in the proper environment.

Kris

 

[Eventhough]

Kris - I'm not splitting hairs. When people want to e-argue I'm very careful in how I state things to be technically correct. You even admit that what I've said is technically correct. If I'm correct then why are you arguing and attacking me?

Let me state these things again.

I never said splicing was incredibly difficult and that someone couldn't splice their own line. I've said and I'll say again that the average user cannot field repair their synthetic line with their current level of knowledge. I stand by that. The average user CAN gain that knowledge to splice their own line. Samson (manufacturer of Amsteel Blue) provides pdfs and videos online on how to do this based to their (the manufacturer's) specs. I commend Samson and anyone who teaches the public on how to repair their own synthetic line. Heck, I've taught a half a dozen classes so far this year on how to field repair a broken synthetic winch line and I even walked a customer through how to do it while he was in Moab via text and a phone call.

If you don't intend to attack me then don't say that I'm implying people are idiots if they don't know how to splice. That is not cool and I won't stand for it - period. Also, quit misconstruing what I say. I never said that splicing has to be "done in the proper environment." I said and I'll say again (look up and you'll see the original post - I'm not spending the time to quote everything) "A line can be spliced in the field perfect..." but it is easier to do it in a controlled environment. Again, that is a simple point and it is true and I stand by that. That is in no way me trying to hurt your business.

OK - I'll even summarize it again to make it even more clear.
1 - the average synthetic winch line owner does not have the current knowledge to splice line
2 - the average synthetic winch line owner can gain the knowledge to splice line
3 - splicing line is not overly difficult
4 - teaching people how to fix their own lines is a good thing
5 - implying that I said/feel/think people are "idiots" for not knowing how to splice line when I NEVER said that is NOT cool and I will NOT stand for that. If you don't intend to attack me then don't do that again.
6 - let's get this thread back on topic.

THE END - now, I'd love to hear from those who has used a ProLink for awhile. They have been out on the market for awhile now.

 

[opie]

Steve,

I was wrong. I did not mean to suggest you implied calling anyone an idiot. In that I was wrong, and I apologize.

However, I am not comfortable with the stigma you are placing on the intricacies of one being able to work on their own line. I think you are cutting the average winch user short in their knowledge and capabilities.

When you say...

For the average winch user then no, a safety-style thimble is not reusable per se with their capabilities.

The first time synthetic line user may get the impression there is something mysterious about how the line is put together. Of their is some special tool needed to do it. You and I know thats not the case, but stop and think back to the first time you were introduced to synthetic line. If you had read that, what would you think?

Then they may read this...

A field splice repair is also different than a bench splice.

This is factually inaccurate. At no time in this quote did you mention anything about conditions. The first time synthetic line user will read that and assume any field splice is inferior to a bench splice. Or that the process is somehow different. They are not. The only variable may be the tools available to get the job done.

I do agree that the pro link is a neat alternative. IMO, for the money, learning to take the splice apart and put on a different thimble is far less expensive. And it allows the user to practice the splice for eventual repairs down the road.

I also stand by my statement that most folks will likely have the tools needed to perform a splice laying under their seat, as opposed to a set of snap ring pliers in their tool kit.

 

[rezdiver]

I am with Steve on this one.

a very large portion of users will not be comfortable splicing a rope.

opie, you are giving way too much credit for the capability of users to rig and splice their equipment. sure for a big portion of the users splicing and tieing knots is second nature and easy to learn, but its a big market out there and there is a large portion that will not be comfortable doing it or have the aptitude for learning how to do it. that is the market the prolink will do well in. the prolink will definately have its audience and will sell well.
changing a flat tire should be easy as pie too but look at the number of people who still dont know how to do it and call a tow truck.

and anticrhrist is correct all you need is a shackle, but lets face it the prolink is red and shiny. everyone loves red and shiny. Just look at all the Highlifts you see mounted on the side of the trucks driving down the road that still have their shiny red paint on them and have never seen dirt.

 

[Antichrist]

Why all the discussion about field splicing in this thread? If your rope breaks in the field the Prolink won't do you a bit of good if you don't know how to splice your rope.

and anticrhrist is correct all you need is a shackle

I dunno, maybe I'm wrong. I mean, the photos do show that the solution is to buy the Prolink so you can use a shackle.

 

[Stumpalump]

Idiots is the best way to describe many that have anything to do with a winch. Personally I would never buy anything except the large hook for this reason. Even an idiot can wip that cable around a tree or a b pillar in an instant if needed. Like before a traped arm is too far gone or before the fire burns the occupants. Stupid simple is the way a hook works and that's just what the winch crowd often needs.

 

[Eventhough]

Why all the discussion about field splicing in this thread? If your rope breaks in the field the Prolink won't do you a bit of good if you don't know how to splice your rope.

You are correct. I think the advantage to a ProLink is someone who does not currently have knowledge in how to splice a line or does not want to learn can slap on a ProLink quickly to either a synthetic or wire line. If you can splice or want to learn how to splice and have confidence in your capability to splice then buy a MasterPull Winch Line Stop Thimble or Viking Safety Thimble and splice it on and (eta 'save') some money. If you don't want to splice and can use a pair of snap ring pliers then go with the ProLink.

I dunno, maybe I'm wrong. I mean, the photos do show that the solution is to buy the Prolink so you can use a shackle.

I think we are pretty close here to each other's viewpoint. The ProLink makes you use a shackle which is more secure than a hook. You could use ProLink or the two other options I listed above. I agree - a shackle is more secure than a hook.

 

[Eventhough]

Steve,

I was wrong. I did not mean to suggest you implied calling anyone an idiot. In that I was wrong, and I apologize.

Thanks for apologizing but when you said...

While you did not call the "average winch user" idiots... You did imply such by saying that performing a splice is above their capabilities.

...that seemed pretty straight forward and I don't see how you "did not mean to suggest" when you flat out said it. Maybe I just read things too plainly, who knows.

I am not comfortable with the stigma you are placing on the intricacies of one being able to work on their own line. I think you are cutting the average winch user short in their knowledge and capabilities.

OK - I'll even summarize it again to make it even more clear.
1 - the average synthetic winch line owner does not have the current knowledge to splice line
2 - the average synthetic winch line owner can gain the knowledge to splice line
3 - splicing line is not overly difficult
4 - teaching people how to fix their own lines is a good thing
5 - implying that I said/feel/think people are "idiots" for not knowing how to splice line when I NEVER said that is NOT cool and I will NOT stand for that. If you don't intend to attack me then don't do that again.
6 - let's get this thread back on topic.

Refer to #1, 2, & 3 above. I don't know how I can make this anymore simple or how you think I'm placing any sort of "stigma" on how to splice line. Refer to #3 specifically. I can't make this anymore simple, nor straightforward, and thusly feel you are trolling for a fight since I said #3 and you seem to think I'm placing some stigma out there. Again, maybe I read things too plainly, who knows...

This is factually inaccurate. At no time in this quote did you mention anything about conditions. The first time synthetic line user will read that and assume any field splice is inferior to a bench splice. Or that the process is somehow different. They are not. The only variable may be the tools available to get the job done.

And here we go again.

A line can be spliced in the field perfect..." but it is easier to do it in a controlled environment.

Anything is easier to do in a controlled environment - period. Also I wheel - I wheel a lot. A winch line or anything on a vehicle off road is not typically going to break in a nice area where you can do your repair. You break when you are winching, off camber, when something else is already broken, in mud, in the rain, at night, etc etc etc. It is easier to repair a broken winch line in a controlled environment than in the field.

Now refer again to my quote above where I state that a line can be spliced perfect in the field. I'm getting really tired of you nit picking every little word I say and how I say it. You can do a complete step by step splice in the field but there are some shortcuts for a field repair that a user can take if they do not recall every step to splice or if they don't have reference material to refer back to. One of those is with the taper. Instead of remembering which strands to pull and cut at the very end of the line you can cut that with a knife at an angle. That is a difference. I'm not going to spend half an hour here typing a rebuttal or a thesis where each and every word can be 100% analyzed and raked over the coals. If you like refer to my quotes above again, especially 1, 2, & 3 and #6 wouldn't be bad either. Also the one I repeated (again) below.

A line can be spliced in the field perfect..." but it is easier to do it in a controlled environment.

IMO, for the money, learning to take the splice apart and put on a different thimble is far less expensive. And it allows the user to practice the splice for eventual repairs down the road.

I agree with you. The catch is the vast majority of people I come into contact with in the field, wheeling, and at events, or at the shop don't want to learn how to splice. Some do and I'm happy to teach those. I even encourage people to learn how to repair their synthetic winch line as wheelers should be able to repair higher wear parts on their rigs as they are the most likely to fail. Ie: replace a CV, control link, or repair a winch line as opposed to replacing your headliner or steering wheel in the field.

I also stand by my statement that most folks will likely have the tools needed to perform a splice laying under their seat, as opposed to a set of snap ring pliers in their tool kit.

I mostly agree with you here - BUT - the ProLink, or any similar product that might come on the market - is not the solution for repairing a broken synthetic winch line. If the line is broken you have to splice it before you can install a ProLink so if you have a regular thimble then put it on then if the eye broke. I could dig up a quote from me about this but I'm tired of chasing this around. Now refer to #6 and I'll even quote it again.

OK - I'll even summarize it again to make it even more clear.
1 - the average synthetic winch line owner does not have the current knowledge to splice line
2 - the average synthetic winch line owner can gain the knowledge to splice line
3 - splicing line is not overly difficult
4 - teaching people how to fix their own lines is a good thing
5 - implying that I said/feel/think people are "idiots" for not knowing how to splice line when I NEVER said that is NOT cool and I will NOT stand for that. If you don't intend to attack me then don't do that again.
6 - let's get this thread back on topic.

And again with only #6.

6 - let's get this thread back on topic.

As far as I see I have addressed everyone of your concerns so those should be put to bed. I apologize to the original poster and anyone who has been following this thread for the thread going off topic.

:beer:

 

[Eventhough]

Idiots is the best way to describe many that have anything to do with a winch.

What I teach people is "Don't 100% trust anyone in a recovery situation, especially yourself, when your safety is on the line." Double check everything, especially your own rigging before a pull. I almost always at least improve some part of the rigging even if it is as little as taking some slack out the line or laying line or a strap in a different place before a pull. What happens a bunch is you will ask someone on the other end of rigging "Hey, is that tree strap properly attached to the tree?" They will not even glance down and say "Yup!." They you ask them to make sure the tree strap is not twisted against the tree and they look down and say "Whoops, didn't know/see that." No offense to that person but that's when I walk my happy little self over and check the rigging myself. Being safe keeps you alive.

 

[Antichrist]

I think we are pretty close here to each other's viewpoint. The ProLink makes you use a shackle which is more secure than a hook.

I really don't want to be around people doing recovery who need certain tools to force them to be safe.

 

[opie]

Not so sure our discussion, minus the bravado, is off topic.

Refer to #1, 2, & 3 above. I don't know how I can make this anymore simple or how you think I'm placing any sort of "stigma" on how to splice line. Refer to #3 specifically. I can't make this anymore simple, nor straightforward, and thusly feel you are trolling for a fight since I said #3 and you seem to think I'm placing some stigma out there. Again, maybe I read things too plainly, who knows...

Had you left your original post stand, without the subsequent posts responding to me..... Which is why I went back to you original post. Because the point I was trying to make got sidetracked.

And here we go again.

Anything is easier to do in a controlled environment - period. Also I wheel - I wheel a lot. A winch line or anything on a vehicle off road is not typically going to break in a nice area where you can do your repair. You break when you are winching, off camber, when something else is already broken, in mud, in the rain, at night, etc etc etc. It is easier to repair a broken winch line in a controlled environment than in the field.

You did not quantify your original comment with any of these variables. Had your original comment not been followed by your posts responding to me, it would have left the impression I am suggesting, IMO. Your responses to me contain the information I was questioning.

Now refer again to my quote above where I state that a line can be spliced perfect in the field. I'm getting really tired of you nit picking every little word I say and how I say it. You can do a complete step by step splice in the field but there are some shortcuts for a field repair that a user can take if they do not recall every step to splice or if they don't have reference material to refer back to. One of those is with the taper. Instead of remembering which strands to pull and cut at the very end of the line you can cut that with a knife at an angle. That is a difference. I'm not going to spend half an hour here typing a rebuttal or a thesis where each and every word can be 100% analyzed and raked over the coals. If you like refer to my quotes above again, especially 1, 2, & 3 and #6 wouldn't be bad either. Also the one I repeated (again) below.

And again... Had your original post not been followed with the information you posted in response to me, IMO, one would glean from your comment that it is a difficult task. You made a general comment that I felt was inaccurate and I commented. This is a public forum and while I did jump on you more than I should have, I am free to comment and post on things others post. Unless the moderation here feels I have overstepped my bounds, I will continue to post my opinion as I see fit.

I agree with you. The catch is the vast majority of people I come into contact with in the field, wheeling, and at events, or at the shop don't want to learn how to splice. Some do and I'm happy to teach those. I even encourage people to learn how to repair their synthetic winch line as wheelers should be able to repair higher wear parts on their rigs as they are the most likely to fail. Ie: replace a CV, control link, or repair a winch line as opposed to replacing your headliner or steering wheel in the field.

Ill argue they don't want to learn how to splice because they think its to difficult. If they knew how easy it was, they might not be so adverse to wanting to learn. That is the jist of my interaction with you. When a newbie reads "X is above their capabilities" or "a field splice it different than a bench splice" they will feel overwhelmed. Had you quantified those comments with the information you provided in subsequent posts, perfect. But it took me, questioning you, to get that information.

I mostly agree with you here - BUT - the ProLink, or any similar product that might come on the market - is not the solution for repairing a broken synthetic winch line. If the line is broken you have to splice it before you can install a ProLink so if you have a regular thimble then put it on then if the eye broke. I could dig up a quote from me about this but I'm tired of chasing this around. Now refer to #6 and I'll even quote it again.

I never suggested the Pro Link is a solution to a broken line. My comment was to someone else that stated things like safety thimbles are "one time use" or are tied to the line. Thats where this thread diverged into splicing.

And again with only #6.

Public forum. I feel that the conversation this far, again minus the bravado, is on track. You don't need to refer me back to your suggestion that the conversation is over. If you do not like being questioned, perhaps you should refrain from posting your opinions.

As far as I see I have addressed everyone of your concerns so those should be put to bed. I apologize to the original poster and anyone who has been following this thread for the thread going off topic.

:beer:

I agree. It only took you about 4 posts to do so.:beer:

 

[Eventhough]

I really don't want to be around people doing recovery who need certain tools to force them to be safe.

I don't either but very often during recoveries I see something that I consider significantly unsafe. I could probably say the majority of the time. It is the lesser of the two occurrences that I see a recovery and say "Dang - that was nice!" but it does happen.

 

[Eventhough]

Public forum. I feel that the conversation this far, again minus the bravado, is on track. You don't need to refer me back to your suggestion that the conversation is over. If you do not like being questioned, perhaps you should refrain from posting your opinions.

I will speak up how I did every time you attack me and say that I implied that people were idiots - period. You were out of line.

I don't mind being questioned one bit, it is good for everyone, but you fully appear to me to be trolling and beating a dead horse. When you attack me personally or my business I will change from nice little jovial me to something much harsher. I've answered all your questions - often with the same answer numerous times. I read your latest responses and don't feel like saying again "Refer to #1, Refer to #3, etc. Unfortunately I have to keep my responses to you very simple (or spend countless time proof reading to try and interpret how you will try to see something that doesn't exist.) You keep pulling out the same responses/questions which I have to refer you to my repeated identical responses. (Refer to #s 1-6.) My experiences and many responses come from time on the trail and interactions with the public while wheeling. As I said I wheel and I wheel a lot and I share my experiences and insights from a real world perspective. Nit pick all you want but I'm done responding to you.