Question about hydraulic systems on a series IIa
- Thread starter Wander
- Start date
TeriAnn
Explorer
Series trucks went through the stage of not being worth anything and most survived that period, often as derelict lawn ornaments that later were resuscitated, but they survived. I purchased my 109 in 1978 for $350 and thought it overpriced. A really good condition runner top price was around $2500 and most couldn't command nearly that much.
The value of Series trucks didn't go up until 1993 when the D110 was introduced to Americans and many who decided they could not afford one turned to the cheap Series trucks. In the late 70's & 80's a gearbox or engine rebuild often cost more than buying a functional Series truck. Just like the earlier Discos & Range Rovers today. But yes there is a lot of emotional satisfaction in owning a functional Series truck. And I think that had a lot to do with their survival. But also key is that they are simple enough that the average person can learn to fix it and keep it running. I think newer vehicles are just too complex and home mechanic hostile for most would be restorers.
Only time will tell if the Rangies or Discos will ever become classics. Most cars never make that jump. If I were to bet on any it would be the classic range rover. And ANY vehicle needs help to survive time if they are to remain functional. Not just Series rigs.
Alaska Mike
ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
I'm going to have to agree with I Leak Oil on this one. Series trucks live longer because they have a higher perceived value (vs original cost). The only coiler that approaches them is the Defender, which is just a modernized Series truck.
I will concede that most coilers have more pockets for corrosion, and since they are generally more available for a reasonable price, replacement is is more economical than refurbishment. To be honest, I see this is more of a change in the way vehicles are viewed by their owners than the superiority of one design over another. If a coiler was maintained to the same level as a Series rig, it would likely last a long time. Another difference is that vehicles of the Series era were built to last through maintainance. More modern designs were built to last without significant maintenance. An abused/neglected old-design rig will fail faster than an abused/neglected new-design rig. I guess that says more about the owners than the manufacturers. A modern owner doesn't want to adjust points, grease wheel bearings, and do all of those periodic tasks that owners of older vehicles feel are par for the course.
It's the difference between a mode of transportation and a lifestyle.
I will concede that most coilers have more pockets for corrosion, and since they are generally more available for a reasonable price, replacement is is more economical than refurbishment. To be honest, I see this is more of a change in the way vehicles are viewed by their owners than the superiority of one design over another. If a coiler was maintained to the same level as a Series rig, it would likely last a long time. Another difference is that vehicles of the Series era were built to last through maintainance. More modern designs were built to last without significant maintenance. An abused/neglected old-design rig will fail faster than an abused/neglected new-design rig. I guess that says more about the owners than the manufacturers. A modern owner doesn't want to adjust points, grease wheel bearings, and do all of those periodic tasks that owners of older vehicles feel are par for the course.
It's the difference between a mode of transportation and a lifestyle.
SunTzuNephew
Explorer
I used to have a series (long wheel base with a short-block chevy and converted electrical)...Sold it when I went to med school, since I didn't have parking space for it in the new digs.
Now my wife wants one! I told her I'd show her how to work on it, but it'd be her maintenance joy.... Assuming I could find a good candidate chassis, what would the chances be of finding a suitable diesel engine? The MB 3.0 turbo? 4BT? Original?
At least there are lots of web resources now. Back then, very little.
Now my wife wants one! I told her I'd show her how to work on it, but it'd be her maintenance joy.... Assuming I could find a good candidate chassis, what would the chances be of finding a suitable diesel engine? The MB 3.0 turbo? 4BT? Original?
At least there are lots of web resources now. Back then, very little.
I Leak Oil
Expedition Leader
Ahh..and that's my point. Series are deemed "worthy" to be resurected where as a coiler isn't quite there yet. In my mind it has nothing really to do with the series being a better 40 year old vehicle than a coil will be when it's also 40, but more to do with the desire of us enthisiasts to save them or not.
Not many people are going to want to resurect a 40 year old Ford Escort.
Alaska Mike
ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
Make sure that you check and clean the axle vents- especially if you see gear oil leakage around the wheel bearings.
You can't tell much about the general condition of the vehicle from those pictures. A good look at the floorboards, rear crossmember, areas around the inboard spring hangers, and maybe a good look at the points where the aluminum attaches to steel would be helpful. However, a bunch of time crawling around underneath with a screwdriver would tell you a lot more.
You can't tell much about the general condition of the vehicle from those pictures. A good look at the floorboards, rear crossmember, areas around the inboard spring hangers, and maybe a good look at the points where the aluminum attaches to steel would be helpful. However, a bunch of time crawling around underneath with a screwdriver would tell you a lot more.
SunTzuNephew
Explorer
Sounds like the first thing to do when doing a series resto is rent a power washer.....just like a mil vehicle resto..
Wander
Expedition Leader
Yeah I'm hoping to get some pictures of those areas soon and I'm curious to see what they will show. I'll use those pictures to decide if I'll drive the distance to go look at them in person which will be the ultiamte decision factor. I'm trying to not get "Rover Fever" but I must admit it's not easy.
Alaska Mike
ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
I think that's a really, really good idea. Hopefully the shop has done some discriminating of their own, so you will be looking a vehicles that are safe and good candidates for a long-term relationship. I would make yourself familiar with the prices of common replacement parts (Rovers North site is good for this) so you can make an educated guess when estimating repair prices. As someone else said, the main things you should be looking at are the frame and bulkhead. Everything else is much easier to repair. From there, look at safety and basic functionality of the vehicle. Test drive it, making sure you understand the quirks of Series transmissions. Get a feel for exactly how it accelerates (or doesn't). Make sure this vehicle is what you want.
I completely understand Rover fever. Hopefully you'll be able to think logically when you're afflicted with it, and make good decisions. I certainly didn't.
Antichrist
Expedition Leader
One series tranmission quirk to maybe think about is that they aren't all syncro in the years you're looking. Some people loathe having to double clutch.
As for coilers gaining the status that Series trucks have, I seriously doubt it. The main reason is the increasing level of electronics that will not have replacement parts available. Unless someone comes up with generic replacements.
Another factor in the increased price is the income level of Rover owners. When I first started buying Land Rovers in the mid 70's you could get them really cheap (unless you bought a new one for about $4500), as TeriAnn said. Someone who bought a Land Rover was in the market, generally, for a $300-$500 4WD. When Range Rover, and later Land Rover, came to the US again in the late 80's, the target market were folks with >$250k incomes, even adjusted for inflation a lot more than the people who were buying Land Rovers in the 70's and early 80's. Once they had a Range Rover it was then cool to "buy an old Series Rover" and they could afford to drive up the prices.
As for coilers gaining the status that Series trucks have, I seriously doubt it. The main reason is the increasing level of electronics that will not have replacement parts available. Unless someone comes up with generic replacements.
Another factor in the increased price is the income level of Rover owners. When I first started buying Land Rovers in the mid 70's you could get them really cheap (unless you bought a new one for about $4500), as TeriAnn said. Someone who bought a Land Rover was in the market, generally, for a $300-$500 4WD. When Range Rover, and later Land Rover, came to the US again in the late 80's, the target market were folks with >$250k incomes, even adjusted for inflation a lot more than the people who were buying Land Rovers in the 70's and early 80's. Once they had a Range Rover it was then cool to "buy an old Series Rover" and they could afford to drive up the prices.
Wander
Expedition Leader
The lack of electronics and overall complexity is one of the big reasons that series Rovers appeal to me. It may sound corny but I can remember watching Mutual of Omaha as a kid (when TV's were also furniture) and falling for the Land Rovers. They looked so unique yet simple, form follows function and they represented adventure for me. When the 90's and 110's came into the market I was shocked at the prices and the Disco's while nice are a little too complicated for me. In this hurry up world I want something that is the antithesis of all things technical. This will be my escape and allow me to get my hands dirty (literally) and connect with something basic. There is nothing better than wiping your greasy hands with a shop rag and know that you fixed/maintained/completed something with your own hands and knowledge. Will be a project that never ends?- you bet- but isn't life the same?
TeriAnn
Explorer
What you are saying has been the case since the mid 1990's but when Series trucks were between 10 and 20 years old they were mostly under $1000 trucks that no one wanted to buy nor to sink money into just like the10+ year old Coilers. A few eccentrics kept them cobbled together simply because they were easy to work on. A lot of 109 regulars died to be made into trailers during their cheap years but the rest mostly survived until the mid nineties when they suddenly became desirable vehicles.
Alaska Mike
ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
I think that's been the case for just about every utilitarian 4x4 (CJs, FJs...) since the start of the SUV craze. They were all basically cheap transportation until the off-road "lifestyle" came into vogue.
I think that it's not going to be capability or design that ultimately prevents the coilers from having the long run of the Series rigs, but the economy/gas prices and the disposable world we live in today. The "classics" already have a niche that keeps them alive, but unfortunately many very capable rigs won't attain that status before they meet the crusher.
For the record, I've lusted after Discos myself (I blame Scott Brady), before deciding I can only afford so many rigs. My heart has always been with rigs that exude funk factor (or gear oil), so I gotta stick with the old iron. Still, I have to catch myself every time I see a Disco on Craigslist for next to nothing. "You mean I can be warm, dry, and still be on the trail? Sign me up!"
Maybe some day, if there are any left uncrushed...
I think that it's not going to be capability or design that ultimately prevents the coilers from having the long run of the Series rigs, but the economy/gas prices and the disposable world we live in today. The "classics" already have a niche that keeps them alive, but unfortunately many very capable rigs won't attain that status before they meet the crusher.
For the record, I've lusted after Discos myself (I blame Scott Brady), before deciding I can only afford so many rigs. My heart has always been with rigs that exude funk factor (or gear oil), so I gotta stick with the old iron. Still, I have to catch myself every time I see a Disco on Craigslist for next to nothing. "You mean I can be warm, dry, and still be on the trail? Sign me up!"
Maybe some day, if there are any left uncrushed...
Wander
Expedition Leader
I should have some more pictures this weekend, I requested pics of the chassis, outriggers, bulkhead, under hood (or bonnet) and some more of the interiors. The lack of comments on the pictured I have posted has me a little nervous, is that they are that bad, or that your just waiting for the non-beauty pics? I did ask if the fluid in the 67 with the hydraulic issue is black-no answer yet.
Alaska Mike
ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
Naaaaaahhh- they just don't show much that couldn't be hidden by a decent wash and wax. You really need to see the problem areas to see the expensive stuff. A Series IIA is a thing of beauty, so you have to get past the dazzle to see what you really have.
I am a little different than some Series owners. I don't care about "correct". I kinda like the 4 headlight look, and don't mind if a non-standard part was used- as long as it functions as well or better than original and the overall big picture hasn't changed. I do prefer a left hand drive (NAS) rig over the right hand drive rigs. Just easier to drive in the States.
I am a little different than some Series owners. I don't care about "correct". I kinda like the 4 headlight look, and don't mind if a non-standard part was used- as long as it functions as well or better than original and the overall big picture hasn't changed. I do prefer a left hand drive (NAS) rig over the right hand drive rigs. Just easier to drive in the States.