Sportsmobile vs. XP Camper -- Why the XP Camper Won For Us

[OutbacKamper]

The comparison of the Sportsmobile 4x4 Van Camper to the XP V1 Camper is interesting to me, in that the price point of the Sportsmobile was Marc's original goal when developing the V1. In other words, a new truck, flatbed and V1 camper was intended to be in the same price range as the Sportsmobile. I am not up to date on the exact pricing of either unit, but based on Daniels numbers it seems they are very similar. That is not to say that the Sportsmobile and XP are direct competitors, as has been pointed out already they appeal to different customers for different reasons.

I think the most similar camper to the XP V1 for a back to back comparison based on size, features and capacity is the All Terrain Warrior Bravo:

Can anyone add any feedback or insight into the ATW Bravo? I know it was at Overland Expo, but unfortunately I have yet to see one in person.

 

[craig333]

Its great that theres so many more options available to someone in the camper now than there were when I got my FWC. Aside from a few issues with flatbeds its really the price range that would keep me looking at an XP (or others). Oddly enough I have yet to camp near one (excepting the times Marc showed up at an WTW rally) or for that matter any of the expedition rigs.

 

[adam88]

I'll elaborate a bit more on my previous post (had no time).

Marc's design is a genius design, and truly the best of any camper. I truly believe the OP is just passionate about it.

That being said, one area I disagree with the OP about is his passion that Marc's V2 camper can become HUGE and sell thousands of units. The OP never said this but hinted at it (I'm using thousands as an example).

Besides cost (the V2 costs $31,000, for a camper that uses a slide-out toilet and slide-out shower in the aisle), the BIGGEST single thing that will prevent Marc from moving forward beyond the "NICHE" market is the flatbed!.

The flatbed is a great concept, and in many other countries it is accepted. But in North America... good luck convincing 99% of the public to go with a flatbed. Not only that, but it costs $8,000 just for the flatbed. As I said I believe 99% of the people who want campers just want them for the occasional weekend trip with the kids, and when they get home they want their truck back to normal. They don't want a flatbed, which might make them look redneck or unfashionable to their neighbors.

Also, the biggest downside of all... SELLING A TRUCK WITH A FLATBED!!! If you thought selling a 1 ton truck with a flatbed was hard, imagine selling a Toyota Tacoma quad cab with a flatbed. No one is interested!!! Because the Tacoma doesn't have the payload to handle any big loads a flatbed could handle. In this case, it is only useful for a very light weight customized camper. It's almost impossible, and everyone will shy away. So then you are left with the option of either selling your truck way below market value, or else putting a bed back on, which costs money and you'll have trouble finding the right model year and paint color. Or, if you kept your old bed (where would you store it for several years?), you can put it on. But now you've got an $8,000 hunk of aluminum flatbed that no one will want.

Do I agree with all of the above sentiments? Hell no. I think North Americans need to get off the high horse and enjoy flatbeds like the rest of the world! But right now they don't... and that's why any camper that requires a flatbed, no matter how well it is built, will never be anything more than a niche product (unfortunately). I wish Marc the best of luck in convincing the general public otherwise, but they are a stubborn bunch. I imagine if Marc took his camper to a normal RV show (non-overlander) he would not be received too well. People would be impressed but would scoff at the cost and flatbed. He would get people saying "But the Lance over there is 3 times as big, with way more stuff, and costs half of yours, and doesn't need a flatbed?". And I can just see Marc standing there saying "Yes but this one pops up, and is made like a boat, and has diesel appliances"..... followed by the potential customer going "We want a camper, not a boat! And diesel appliances stink! No thanks". Yep... educating the public is not fun.

So I appreciate OP trying to educate public (even if biased), but this isn't the public. This is expeditionportal. Try posting this on some other RV forums. OR better yet, Go post this over at Sportsmobile. I think you owe them a proper rebuttal... they will tell you why they think Sportsmobile is 10x better than XP, etc. Everyone thinks their camper is the best.

 

[Overland Hadley]

Everyone thinks their camper is the best.

I know my camper is the best.... compromise. (for me, at this moment in time.)

 

[drodio]

Lots to respond to!

@Adam88 re: "I think he hinted in another thread he will soon be working with marc and may be compensated. This post comes across as advertising to me... just my opinion." -- What I wrote last year on my blog http://www.lifewetravel.com/our-two-year-journey-choosing-a-pop-up-camper was "Since I'm so impressed I am by the XP Camper, it's very likely I'll dedicate some of my time and resources to help the owner Marc make XP a better known option, and it's also very likely that Sue and I will buy an XP ourselves, although we haven't yet. So in the future, you'll likely see a lot more involvement from me with XP, which may influence your perception of this article. So let me just state for the record that as of the time of this post I have no financial connection to any of these manufacturers, and no incentive to promote one over any of the others. Take the time to make your own informed choice, which should include a visit to all of the manufacturers if possible — or at least, watch all of the videos I took when we visited ourselves — so you can really evaluate each of them for your needs."


And that's exactly what I've done. I helped Marc start http://forum.xpcamper.org because I think it's important for owners and those interested in a camper (and specifically the XP) be able to have a forum in which they can talk openly & honestly to each other, ask questions directly of Marc, and post pro-tips. I'm a tech geek, so doing something like that is pretty easy for me, and I was happy to do it because I'm really passionate about what Marc is doing, and as an entrepreneur & business owner myself, I know how hard it can be to be doing 200 "top priority" things at once. And kudos to Marc -- he doesn't censor any of the posts over there, he just lets all the opinions fly. That's an indication of someone who stands behind and believes in his product, and that makes me even more of a fan of what he's doing. So it may come across as advertising, but Marc didn't ask me to write it, nor did he even know that I did it, and in fact he's probably embarrassed by it. Anyone who knows me knows that I get pretty passionate about the stuff I'm into, and that's why Sue and I specifically went to visit all of the factories and documented all of it, so that we could make an informed decision on what was best for us.


Also re: "I disagree with the OP about is his passion that Marc's V2 camper can become HUGE and sell thousands of units. The OP never said this but hinted at it (I'm using thousands as an example)." -- yeah part of the reason I'm so passionate about it is that I believe Marc is opening up an entirely new category: A super capable overlanding rig that can also be used as a daily driver. The fact that the truck can be used as a daily driver opens it up to a much wider audience, IMO. For example, my wife and I wouldn't want to spend $100k on a dedicated camper rig, but when we can use the truck as a daily driver, it becomes a sensible option for us. And if you look at how many units SMB sells (I don't know the exact number but there must've been 30+ in production at once when we went to visit SMB west) for a *dedicated* $100k rig, that makes me think that XP could sell at even higher volumes. According to http://www.manta.com/c/mmf2y1w/sportsmobile-inc, Sportsmobile's HQ does $5MM to $10MM in revenue per year, and SMB Texas does $2.5MM to $5MM. http://www.manta.com/c/mm6cxc9/sportsmobile-texas-inc So if SMB is doing $7.5MM to $15MM in revenue annually, at an average of $100k/unit, then SMB is shipping 75 to 150 units per year. And I don't even know if that includes SMB West's numbers. The RV industry is poised to ship 321,800 units in 2014 according to http://www.rvia.org/?ESID=indicators . All Marc would have to do is capture 1% of that market to ship over 3,000 units. But even if he just shipped at SMBs numbers of, say 100 units/year, that would be an incredible success. Do I think Marc is opening up a new segment of the market where he could eventually ship "thousands" of units per year? Yes, if that's what he wanted to do. Do I think it might take him 10+ years to get there? Yep, very likely; building something from scratch is a bear. If you think I'm wrong/crazy about that position, I'd love to hear your thinking on why. But I really do believe Marc has the potential to turn XP Camper into quite a meaningful-sized business, and that excites me as an entrepreneur myself. I mean, what I do for a living in the tech world is sniff out opportunity. And Marc's approach with XP just has all of the early telltale signs of the creation of an entirely new category to me. Again, tell me if you think I'm wrong/crazy, I'd LOVE to hear the counter-arguments.


But one thing I definitely agree with you on is "Yep... educating the public is not fun." Yeah I'd love to see what kind of reaction the XP gets at a Sports & Game fishing type show. I'm not sure if Marc's tried that yet.


@Super Doody re: "I'm going to be a little blunt here and ask if is this post really a review/comparison/analysis of pop campers? Its seems to me that this is more of a review and documentation of your XP camper. The review/comparison/analysis is biased towards XP camper due to your personal/business relationship with XP campers. Its obviously that you spent more time and have more knowledge on the XP camper than any other camper." -- If you read my blogs where I went and walked the factories of Hallmark, Outfitter, FWC, SMB, Phoenix, Earth Roamer then you'll know that I spent a meaningful amount of time at each. And yes, ever since Sue and I decided to get an XP, I've gotten more & more passionate about it the closer the date gets to us taking delivery of one. We spent our own hard earned money on a deposit for an XP. I'm just a really, really passionate buyer who has decided to dedicate some of my time to detail why we made a decision to buy an XP over other models. I guess it's hard to believe someone would get so jazzed up about a product, but I am!


@Kowboy re: "it's ridiculous to try to make a case it's the absolute best option out there." -- Just the best for *us* as I said in the title.


@DiploStrat re: "Is the crawl through still worth it? Just ask anyone who doesn't have one to talk about getting into a camper that has been in the sun or cold all day." -- that's a great point. Maybe something for Marc to consider; being able to turn the Webasto on remotely to heat the XP up before entering. Dunno, maybe not worth it but it's an interesting idea.


@CJP re: "The thing about the design that bothers me is the large opening to the elements on both sides of the soft top as the roof slowly raises. " -- yeah I"m wondering about this, too. I've asked other XP owners to chime in over at http://forum.xpcamper.org/index.php...xp-camper-why-the-xp-camper-won-for-us/?p=932 on whether that's actually an issue or not. I can see how it could be. I'll be curious to hear about what current owners say.


@OutbacKamper, what does the All Terrain Warrior Bravo cost? Is it in the same $100k-ish price range?


Regardless, at the end of the day, this is a super energizing conversation and I really like hearing everyone's POVs.

 

[steelheadbum]

When I began my search for an all around expedition vehicle/Daily driver I considered many options including XP but my new rig had to fit my specific use.
Since it was to be my daily driver as well It needed to be ready to go on a moments notice, to be able to "bug" out when ever I wanted, to be loaded with everything I needed all the time. The other deciding factor for me was that it looked like this 100% of the time and turns heads every day no matter where I go.

Can't say the same for this

As far as using diesel fuel appliances I would much rather save my fuel for my rig besides I opted for an exterior propane hookup so I don't get those god awful food smells in my rig.

Not to mention I'm already 30-40min ahead of you since your still hooking up.

I can seat 7 and sleep 4

The wife can walk back and grab us a snack

while driving down the road.
*savings 30k* buys a lot of diesel!
But to each his own....hope you enjoy the camper
Buck



The Redneck Mexican
2002 E350 7.3 PSD 4x4 8inch lift pop top conversion....

 

[cwsqbm]

Does the XP Camper have air-conditioning? I've never seen it mentioned, so I'll assume no. For that kind of money, I don't want to be forced to sweat if I'm camping want the night time temps are 85+F.

This is what I ended up with:

:drool: The new Tiger Malayans are pretty much what I want in a camper for pretty much the same reasons you listed (although the regular cab LT model is all I need). I love the look of the Earthroamer, but its simply too big in both length and width for my needs.

 

[OutbacKamper]

@OutbacKamper, what does the All Terrain Warrior Bravo cost? Is it in the same $100k-ish price range?

I read a Truck Trend article that estimated a $125-150K price range. I could not find any price info on the ATW-USA website

 

[OutbacKamper]

the BIGGEST single thing that will prevent Marc from moving forward beyond the "NICHE" market is the flatbed!.

Adam, I agree with many of your points. Marc is fully aware of the limitations of the flatbed "niche" market. The V3 Camper that is currently under development should address most, if not all of these issues. (Full size slide-in, full hard side pop-up, pass through, etc.)

 

[OutbacKamper]

The other deciding factor for me was that it looked like this 100% of the time and turns heads every day no matter where I go.

I was in a campground in the US (can't remember where) a few years ago when a brand new shiny red Sportsmobile drove in. It had all the racks, bumpers, etc. Everyone in the whole campground stopped what they were doing to stare at it. It was quite an attention getter.

 

[Kowboy]

My last comment for this thread is that I hope you're just as passionate about modifyin' the truck you bought. Reality is that camper ain't goin' nowhere without the truck. Therefore it ain't goin' nowhere that truck can't go.

That's why most my effort went into the truck doin' the haulin' rather than the camper it's haulin'. My priority was gettin' away from the crowds and still have the comfort of the camper. Just another way to look at playin' the game.

Safe travels and happy trails.

 

[adam88]

If you think I'm wrong/crazy about that position, I'd love to hear your thinking on why. But I really do believe Marc has the potential to turn XP Camper into quite a meaningful-sized business, and that excites me as an entrepreneur myself. I mean, what I do for a living in the tech world is sniff out opportunity. And Marc's approach with XP just has all of the early telltale signs of the creation of an entirely new category to me. Again, tell me if you think I'm wrong/crazy, I'd LOVE to hear the counter-arguments.

Okay. This is a good conversation. And here's your counter-argument:

First of all, look at the two posts above this one and here's what you'll find:

1) Steelheadbum complains about how ugly flatbed trucks are, and how nice his Sportsmobile looks.
2) Cwsqbm asks if the XP Camper has air conditioning (which it does not)

That's just in the hour or so since you have posted your post here. Beginning to see the problem? These two are expeditionportal members, not some yokels at an RV show, and they STILL demand more than the XP camper offers. This is the problem... if the XP camper can't find a super warm welcome here, then you will never please mainstream people.

Bottom line, again, is most people do not want flatbeds, period. For a LOT of reasons. First, they are ugly (to most). Second, they cost $8,000. Third, you can't sell your vehicle afterwards and many people *believe* that a flatbed would void their warranty (which it wouldn't). Again, Marc would need to spend COUNTLESS HOURS educating the public, and it takes more than a forum online.

I think for Marc to truly hit it big, he would need to build a dedicated rig like the Tiger, with his pop-up model (from the V2, wider body model, on a full size). It would be built into the platform, with a pass through cab, and air conditioning. People would EAT THIS UP, yet, it would be less functional. Why? Because you can't take the camper off and use the truck. It makes sense to me... and you... but not others. The public never ceases to amaze, trust me. You may be an entrepreneur, but how much direct marketing experience to you have, working 1 on 1 with the public? You'd be shocked. Trust me... major corporations like Coca Cola and McDonalds are STILL shocked every day by how the public acts. Just when they think they nail something down, the public surprises them and goes another direction. It drives companies nuts.

Just from your posts I can tell you've got a bit of hyperfocusing going on... maybe some OCD, ADD, etc. All good things when used right, which is probably what made you a successful entrepreneur. I am also a successful entrepreneur. And I too am hyperfocused on the XP Camper, with the intent to purchase one. But I need to bring myself down to earth and realize that I am buying a huge niche product. Again, I repeat... $40,000 for a camper + flatbed, with a slide out porta-potti and a slide-out shower pan, no air conditioning and no proven track record. That is a TOUGH sell. A very, very tough sell. Or, in your case, $80,000 for a camper (V1) + flatbed that has no air conditioning and pop-up vinyl siding. Again, a HUGELY tough sell.

 

[DiploStrat]

Kozy Kampers on the Move

@DiploStrat re: "Is the crawl through still worth it? Just ask anyone who doesn't have one to talk about getting into a camper that has been in the sun or cold all day." -- that's a great point. Maybe something for Marc to consider; being able to turn the Webasto on remotely to heat the XP up before entering. Dunno, maybe not worth it but it's an interesting idea.

I don't have a remote control for my Webasto, but I can certainly turn it on and drive off. The manual specifically mentions running the furnace while driving. For a pop top you would want to be sure that the thermostat is placed where it will get a good read when the top is lowered, but that should not be hard. Similarly, I can also run the camper air conditioner should the truck air conditioner prove inadequate.

 

[Christian P.]

I think constructive discussion on the various options is always a good thing, as long as each vendors use the comments to refine/improve their products.

Members of this community should not be afraid of posting their opinions, good or bad.

The gluing/stapling that the OP is referring to is far too common in the RV industry.
I was just looking at the new Winnebago Travato based on the Promaster and just on the video it was easy to see the low build quality.
I am still confused as to why North-Americans are not more demanding and accept to pay a $50K markup on this type of conversion. At least on a $8000 Ebay Palomino, you pay for what you get (and that still could be a very viable option for a trip to South-America, much better than sleeping on questionable mattresses...)

 

[OutbacKamper]

XP and A/C

I don't know all the details, but A/C is available on the V1 XP. The first V1 XP camper with air conditioning has been ordered although none have been built to date.