Sportsmobile vs. XP Camper -- Why the XP Camper Won For Us

[adam88]

Adam, I agree with many of your points. Marc is fully aware of the limitations of the flatbed "niche" market. The V3 Camper that is currently under development should address most, if not all of these issues. (Full size slide-in, full hard side pop-up, pass through, etc.)

hey outback,

I am excited about the V3, and I have heard a few details. But I don't see how it's possible honestly. I'd need to see some sort of conceptual drawing, but I don't get the concept right now.

One thing I will mention (back to the V2), is that Marc had originally said it would cost under $20,000, and would come with propane appliances. Over the production/prototype phase, Marc decided to put the full compliment of diesel appliances in it instead, which I think was a bad move. The diesel stove and Dual top are extremely expensive, and alone they probably contribute about $7,000 to the cost of the truck. Had Marc put a cheap propane stove, furnace, water heater and small 20# tank in it, he could have probably cut the cost of the camper by $5,000 and opened himself up to a new market.

And this is a good example, right here, of Marc building campers that HE likes, that you like, that droido likes, and that I LIKE! But he is not building campers that the majority of people like. Look at FWC... they sell massive amounts of campers, thousands upon thousands, and they use a propane setup. We've also had one XP V1 owner in this thread say that they would take a crappy $50 coleman propane stove anyday over the $3,000 webasto diesel stove. That's sucks a lot!

It's also worth noting that the systems are hugely overpowered, specifically the Dual Top. It is meant for a huge RV. It puts out something like 18,000 BTU's of heat and can heat gallons and gallons of hot water at a time. It made a lot of sense on the V1, which was bigger and had soft-walls (which meant more BTU's needed). But on the V2, which is about half the size and has no soft walls, you're talking majorly overpowered. The furnace/hot water system costs over 10% of the total camper cost, which is excessive. Again, these will be business decisions Marc will need to make down the road. But I think Marc needs to take the V2, trim it down as much as he possibly can (propane appliances), and get the selling price under $20,000. Then he needs to get the flatbed price under $5,000. And voila... $25,000 for a pop-up camper and flatbed that compares to a Four Wheel Camper. Whether this is a possible price point, I don't know... but $40,000 for the V2 is way too much IMO.

 

[OutbacKamper]

Adam;
I know that Marc is passionate about diesel vs propane. He knows that his "diesel only" systems are limiting his market, but for now, while he continues to sell campers faster than he can make them, I don't see that changing. Long term, who knows. I do know that he has sold campers without the diesel cook top and I suspect that if you wanted to order a V1 and delete the Dual Top and Stove he would build it that way, but then you would be on your own as far as heating and cooking systems go. He also intends to sell a shell model of the V2 that may broaden its appeal. I don't think a slide in model for Tacoma size trucks will happen, but is definitely planned for short and long box Domestic full size 1 ton trucks (with the same diesel appliances).

 

[OutbacKamper]

V3 XP

hey outback,

I am excited about the V3, and I have heard a few details. But I don't see how it's possible honestly. I'd need to see some sort of conceptual drawing, but I don't get the concept right now.

Adam;
I visited the XP shop in the spring and Marc and I put our heads together and between us we built a very crude full size mock up. A more refined prototype is currently under construction. Picture a slide in camper, similar in size to the V1, but with a full hard side, front pivot, pop up roof system similar to the V2. It will also incorporate a unique storage/mounting system that will address many of the shortcomings of traditional slide in camper designs. Oh and it will have a small pass through, either as standard or perhaps as an option, that is undecided right now. That is as much info as I can provide for now, sorry no pictures or drawings until the prototype is ready for public unveiling

 

[adam88]

Adam;
I visited the XP shop in the spring and Marc and I put our heads together and between us we built a very crude full size mock up. A more refined prototype is currently under construction. Picture a slide in camper, similar in size to the V1, but with a full hard side, front
pivot, pop up roof system similar to the V2. It will also incorporate a unique storage/mounting system that will address many of the shortcomings of traditional slide in camper designs. Oh and it will have a small pass through, either as standard or perhaps as an option, that is undecided right now. That is as much info as I can provide for now, sorry no pictures or drawings until the prototype is ready for public unveiling

Sounds interesting. The only concern I'd have would be the height of the camper when closed. For it to be a full size pop-up, if the front bed is east to west, then the height of it is going to be much higher than the current V1. Is that correct?

 

[adam88]

Adam;
I know that Marc is passionate about diesel vs propane. He knows that his "diesel only" systems are limiting his market, but for now, while he continues to sell campers faster than he can make them, I don't see that changing. Long term, who knows. I do know that he has sold campers without the diesel cook top and I suspect that if you wanted to order a V1 and delete the Dual Top and Stove he would build it that way, but then you would be on your own as far as heating and cooking systems go. He also intends to sell a shell model of the V2 that may broaden its appeal. I don't think a slide in model for Tacoma size trucks will happen, but is definitely planned for short and long box Domestic full size 1 ton trucks (with the same diesel appliances).

And this is a good point, outback... no point in making his camper more popular if he can't keep up with orders. But that is also another concern - production time. I know Marc sent out an e-mail a month ago or so and said he was taking orders for V2's, with the next delivery date 6 months away. If it takes 6 months from order date for him to produce campers, then that could also be a concern. But baby steps... I know. Four wheel campers didn't become the huge company they are overnight. It took generations of hard work and lots of connections. Marc's only been doing this for 4-5 years and I personally think he is doing very well!

 

[Keyne]

These are definitely niche products and I agree that a cheaper version of the V2 would be great. Maybe something similar to how SMB allows you to spec out the appliances. Personally on the V2 I might want an electric stove top (with a Coleman backup). Cheaper and simpler. 25k for the camper would be a great price point especially with it being hard sided vs most pop ups being soft.

 

[Keyne]

One point that no one has discussed is that Marc has started talking (on the xp forum) that something could be worked out to make it possible to use the camper off the truck n the field as a base camp. To me this is a game changer for all XP campers compared to the competition in the higher end segment (eg sportsmobile, earthroamer, earthcruiser, tiger, gxv, etc.).

Having the ability to successfully use the nicely designed and comfortable XP camper as a base camp would be awesome for me. Go to a camp site unload and explore, pick up supplies, leave the wife asleep in camp while you go fish, hike, etc in the morning. I hope they come up with a workable solution to this (eg jacks with an under camper support, etc).

 

[mk216v]

One point that no one has discussed is that Marc has started talking (on the xp forum) that something could be worked out to make it possible to use the camper off the truck n the field as a base camp. To me this is a game changer for all XP campers compared to the competition in the higher end segment (eg sportsmobile, earthroamer, earthcruiser, tiger, gxv, etc.).

Having the ability to successfully use the nicely designed and comfortable XP camper as a base camp would be awesome for me. Go to a camp site unload and explore, pick up supplies, leave the wife asleep in camp while you go fish, hike, etc in the morning. I hope they come up with a workable solution to this (eg jacks with an under camper support, etc).

Terrific point.

 

[EMrider]

I suspect that producing XP campers, SMBs or similar expo vehicles is a low ROI endeavor. Could be wrong, but this seems as much a labor of love as it is a for-profit business. As a result, I think this niche business will always appear somewhat odd to those who use a VC or listed company analytical framework.

That said, I think the demographic tailwinds for these companies is very favorable. The population of people with the leisure time and means to splurge on a vehicle of this type is small in absolute terms, but growing rapidly. Unit sales of 1,000-2,000 for a firm the XP campers seems reasonable IMHO within the next 5-10 years.

Good luck to all serving this market.

R

 

[drodio]

@keyne, yeah totally agree. Here's the thread you're referring to: http://forum.xpcamper.org/index.php?/topic/91-Removing-XP-Camper-from-truck

It would be an AWESOME thing for Marc to build into the unit, and I agree it would be a game changer for one person to be able to load/unload the XP within a matter of minutes on most any terrain. Terrific idea.

 

[stioc]

I don't have a card in this game at all nor am I close to buying something like this (may be in my retirement) right now but the nerd in me read the review and comments with interest. The big question swirling around in my head though is just how capable are these trucks when it comes to offroading beyond the graded dirt roads? Are they top-heavy? can they flex well enough with that much weight? are the trucks still within their GVWR? That's another advantage I see of a Sportsmobile but no way I'm willing to spend 70k+ for them so when/if the time comes it'll be either a used one or DIY.

 

[adam88]

@keyne, yeah totally agree. Here's the thread you're referring to: http://forum.xpcamper.org/index.php?/topic/91-Removing-XP-Camper-from-truck

It would be an AWESOME thing for Marc to build into the unit, and I agree it would be a game changer for one person to be able to load/unload the XP within a matter of minutes on most any terrain. Terrific idea.

I thought I knew everything about XP Campers... but apparently not. I thought the XP camper was already field removable, using jacks or something? That's disappointing. It would be a great idea to incorporate... but I don't know if it would be a game changer. Every single other TC out there already includes jacks and does this, including pop-ups like Four Wheel Campers. How would it be a gamechanger? Just curious.

 

[drodio]

@Adam88, there's a description w/ pics & video here: http://forum.xpcamper.org/index.php/topic/91-removing-xp-camper-from-truck

It is removable and stands on jacks, but takes about 30 minutes to do it, which makes it fine for a weekend trip but not practical for leaving it as a base camp to take a trip up the mountain when you're camping. What I think @keyne is referring to is more of a portable plug & play system that would allow the camper to be quickly removed anywhere. The requirements would look something like this to me:

- Can be done by one person (i.e., wife is sleeping, don't want to wake her up)
- Can be accomplished in under 10 minutes. Ideally in under 5 minutes.
- XP is totally stable when on the jacks, i.e., no worries about getting in & out or wind issues
- Ability to deploy on uneven terrain, i.e., can fairly easily make each leg vary in height.

Personally I'd be happy for the jacks to be portable ones; doesn't have to be fixed to the camper. But I don't *think* the current jacks are really made for using the camper; made more for storing the camper. Maybe Marc can chime in. But I'd be worried about wind/usage instability with actually using the camper & the current jack setup.

I wonder if a few changes to the bolt setup + some beefier jacks would make this possible?

 

[DiploStrat]

Australians regularly dismount campers and use them as fixed bases: http://www.freedomoffroad.com.au/category/1/slide_on_campers.html

See minute 7:15 on this video. http://northstarcampers.com/video-gallery.php?id=14

I started looking seriously at North Star when I noticed that their campers are guaranteed for five years on washboard roads in Australia. :Wow1: Not many companies will do that.

 

[drodio]

@DiploStrat -- I watched the video, nice. I'd have to think that would totally be doable in an XP.