Sub-Compact Overlander
- Thread starter Scott Brady
- Start date
Scott Brady
Founder
Curious of what makes you say that. . .
Another possibility in this class is the Kia Sportage. In the first generation, from 1993 to 2002, the Kia Sportage featured body on frame construction, manual trans, 4x4 and transfer case with low range. The Sportage is available in two door and four door versions, with 4 cylinder engines.
While not nearly as well supported by the 4x4 aftermarket as the Suzuki, the Kia models are plenty tough, and were sold in many parts of the world. The Kia would make an interesting project for Expeditions West, in part because almost every 4x4 magazine you pick up has an article about an over-the-top Suzuki.
Here's an example:
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=286221248
1999 Kia Sportage 75K miles $3400
four cylinder engine, manual transmission, 4x4
four door SUV, blue exterior, grey cloth interior
one owner
for sale by dealer in Brockton MA
While not nearly as well supported by the 4x4 aftermarket as the Suzuki, the Kia models are plenty tough, and were sold in many parts of the world. The Kia would make an interesting project for Expeditions West, in part because almost every 4x4 magazine you pick up has an article about an over-the-top Suzuki.
Here's an example:
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ct=u&car_id=286221248
1999 Kia Sportage 75K miles $3400
four cylinder engine, manual transmission, 4x4
four door SUV, blue exterior, grey cloth interior
one owner
for sale by dealer in Brockton MA
Scott Brady
Founder
Nice to see the Panda coming to the US. They were all over the backroads of Eastern Europe and Turkey
Once again, Chip has a great suggestion. I like that option.
One of the requirements we discussed it to get a manual transmission.
I need to learn more about these Kia - I did not know about the body on frame, I though there were unibody.
Maddmatt
Explorer
life_w_vagabonds
Explorer
I too would love to see the new Jimny's in the U.S. - didn't realize the low range was so high, but they sell the Jimny in many, if not most other countries, so it wouldn't surprise me if lower gears could be found (there are plenty of options out there for Samurai's nowadays.) I don't know of any newer vehicle that would compete with it for economy and offroad worthiness.
Regarding the LWB's, most of the Canadian ones are '86's and '87's. Starting next year, the '86's can be imported to the U.S. without any hassles at all, as they will be exempt from EPA and DOT requirements. Being fairly close to the border, I expect to see a lot more of them next year.
My "overlanding rig":
Only 41 hp, but it only weighs 1600# dry, and it gets 25-26mpg with the shell on, and loaded down with camping gear. Top speed on level ground is around 70mph, and it likes 55-60 much better, but I usually don't need to go any faster than that anyway. Low range is 2.6:1, but I'm looking for the 3:1 t-case gears out of the convertible SWB models, which is plenty low for moderate 4WD trails (the above pic was on the Whipsaw Trail in July.) I'm hoping to do an extended trip to Alaska in it in the next few years.
Very cool little truck! I think I'm not the only one who would like more pics and info. You should do a thread on it. I love the German ads on your website, that red lj80 tin top w/ the white wheels is sweeeeet.
Not sure really, maybe it is a misconception on my part. Living in Omaha and driving an FJ60 and before that a Classic Bronco I always thought that something about both of these vehicles being heavy helped them get around so well in the snow. At a point now where I am thinking of selling my FJ60 (daily driver) for something that gets better MPG made me wonder how they would handle the winter roads.
One of the best vehicles you can get for the snow/ice condition is a Subaru Outback/Legacy/Impreza/Forester. You want light, low center of gravity, all wheel drive.
I am not talking about crossing fields with 10 feet deep of snow but for typical on road winter conditions, it's hard to beat.
Scott Brady
Founder
Without getting too far off topic. Traction in deep snow is different than traction on snowy/icy roads. In deep snow, you are actually attempting to distribute the vehicle's weight as much as possible, so a lightweight vehicle on large tires (deflated to near zero psi) is most effective. Tread design will vary based on the type of snow (dry/wet/old/new, etc.).
In shallow snow, or typical snow/ice/etc. seen on roads, contact pressure (Fv) is an advantage, as is wheelbase (stability), tire design and tire width (siping, etc.) and the design and responsiveness of the AWD/4WD system. Narrow tires with lots of siping and studs will provide incredible traction, even on a very light vehicle, as vertical load pressures are very high.
Rally cars in the snow/ice run very narrow tires
Your assumptions about weight are valid, all things being equal. That is why people have been adding sand bags to the back of their pickups since, well, there have been pickups
In shallow snow, or typical snow/ice/etc. seen on roads, contact pressure (Fv) is an advantage, as is wheelbase (stability), tire design and tire width (siping, etc.) and the design and responsiveness of the AWD/4WD system. Narrow tires with lots of siping and studs will provide incredible traction, even on a very light vehicle, as vertical load pressures are very high.
Rally cars in the snow/ice run very narrow tires
Your assumptions about weight are valid, all things being equal. That is why people have been adding sand bags to the back of their pickups since, well, there have been pickups
ratkin
Adventurer
Suzuki Vote
My vote would be a 1st Generation Grand Vitara XL-7.
Body on frame, actual 2-speed transfer case, nice solid axle in the rear, some came with a manual 5-speed. They also sold them in the UK with a 2.0 TD & manual transmission, so it should be relatively easy to re-power a US vehicle with the Renault engine originally used.
Calmini has a snorkel, lift kit, rear axle truss, and 4.24:1 low gearing for the transfer case, among other things.
Here's a 2003 Suzuki XL-7 4x4 with only 61k miles, 6 cyl, auto that's located 288 miles from ZIP 86301 for $6,900 (no affiliation).
- Richard
Funny you ask that....Scott and i have been indeed discussing this possibility this weekend. We are thinking of a low budget but complete build. Possible candidate would include the Vitara, Rav4, Rodeo, Pajero, etc. Perhaps something for less than $5k total...
My vote would be a 1st Generation Grand Vitara XL-7.
Body on frame, actual 2-speed transfer case, nice solid axle in the rear, some came with a manual 5-speed. They also sold them in the UK with a 2.0 TD & manual transmission, so it should be relatively easy to re-power a US vehicle with the Renault engine originally used.
Calmini has a snorkel, lift kit, rear axle truss, and 4.24:1 low gearing for the transfer case, among other things.
Here's a 2003 Suzuki XL-7 4x4 with only 61k miles, 6 cyl, auto that's located 288 miles from ZIP 86301 for $6,900 (no affiliation).
- Richard
Were these Vitara available with manual transmission?
XL-7 is a nice vehicle, but it's a little larger than subcompact. With 112 inch wheelbase and 197 inch overall length, it's larger than a 4Runner, and almost as big as a Wrangler Unlimited.
Suzuki used the Vitara name at different times in different world markets. In USA, the Vitara replaced the Sidekick in 1999, and was sold through 2005. Both 2 door and 4 door models were sold, both with manual transmission and automatic. The Vitara was re-badged as a Tracker and sold by Chevrolet dealers from 99 through 04.
Unfortunately, the Vitara and Tracker are well known for their 4x4 capability, and prices for used 4x4 models with manual transmission and relatively low miles are high.
Suzuki used the Vitara name at different times in different world markets. In USA, the Vitara replaced the Sidekick in 1999, and was sold through 2005. Both 2 door and 4 door models were sold, both with manual transmission and automatic. The Vitara was re-badged as a Tracker and sold by Chevrolet dealers from 99 through 04.
Unfortunately, the Vitara and Tracker are well known for their 4x4 capability, and prices for used 4x4 models with manual transmission and relatively low miles are high.
Don't know about you guys, but I'd say the Grand Vitara and Kia Sportage are getting away from the "sub-compact" class.
If you start looking larger cars like that I have to rep. my choice of a trooper: I get 20mpg loaded, comes with 4.56:1 axles comparable to a dana 44, can fit up to 33" tires no lift, 4 wheel disc brakes, fully boxed frame, 2.6:1 transfer-case(for the auto trans), manual locking hubs, etc and can be had for $2000 - just really slow.
Main drawback is an IFS which I know a lot of people don't like. I don't appreciate the added complexity, but it's an acceptable trade-off for me and my uses.
Just my 2cents =)
If you start looking larger cars like that I have to rep. my choice of a trooper: I get 20mpg loaded, comes with 4.56:1 axles comparable to a dana 44, can fit up to 33" tires no lift, 4 wheel disc brakes, fully boxed frame, 2.6:1 transfer-case(for the auto trans), manual locking hubs, etc and can be had for $2000 - just really slow.
Main drawback is an IFS which I know a lot of people don't like. I don't appreciate the added complexity, but it's an acceptable trade-off for me and my uses.
Just my 2cents =)
In 2002, vehicles were smaller than today. Here's a comparison
of the first generation Kia Sportage 2 door with the 2010 MINI,
which I believe is the smallest 4 passenger sedan sold in USA today.
2010 Mini
wheelbase: 97
overall length 146
overall width: 66
overall height: 55
curb weight: 2568
2002 Kia Sportage 2 door 4x4
wheelbase: 93
overall length: 150
overall width: 68
overall height: 65
curb weight: 3230
And here's the MINI Clubman compared to the 2002 Kia Sportage 4 door
2010 MINI Clubman 3 door
wheelbase: 100
overall length: 156
overall width: 66
overall height: 56
curb weight: 2723
2002 Kia Sportage 4 door 4x4
wheelbase: 104
overall length: 163
overall width: 68
overall height: 65
curb weight: 3352
of the first generation Kia Sportage 2 door with the 2010 MINI,
which I believe is the smallest 4 passenger sedan sold in USA today.
2010 Mini
wheelbase: 97
overall length 146
overall width: 66
overall height: 55
curb weight: 2568
2002 Kia Sportage 2 door 4x4
wheelbase: 93
overall length: 150
overall width: 68
overall height: 65
curb weight: 3230
And here's the MINI Clubman compared to the 2002 Kia Sportage 4 door
2010 MINI Clubman 3 door
wheelbase: 100
overall length: 156
overall width: 66
overall height: 56
curb weight: 2723
2002 Kia Sportage 4 door 4x4
wheelbase: 104
overall length: 163
overall width: 68
overall height: 65
curb weight: 3352