Supertramp Flagship LT pop-up slide-in pickup camper

[jaywo]

Okay, being at 58v makes a huge difference. Also reading in the article they are running a secondary, auxiliary alternator is a big difference. You're not relying on the stock 12v system to do any of the house power.

9000w at 58v = 160 amp of charging, which wiring wise, in very doable. For a 12v system, it would require 750 amps, which would mean the cables would be the size of the driveshaft.

So with this info, why could you not add a secondary alt and isolate the ST wiring from the truck? Sure you're going to need a battery bank to handle that and 12v converters and/or inverters to run everything but that could solve the power issues.

Well I would want Supertramp to do it but they said they don’t want nor plan to change their power system. If I am gonna do all of this myself then I buy a box and do it, like the Tune. Like most people who read this thread I was initially interested in buying a built unit (supertramp or van) because time is precious and doing a good build is extremely time consuming.
I will contact an outfitting company and get a quote for doing it after the fact on a Supertramp. Buy the Supertramp with no alternator and the basic battery, then outfit it with a better power system. Same for heating since I don’t want propane if I can avoid it.

 

[tacollie]

@jaywo ST is already leading the field for pop-up campers. Their biggest deterrent is price and wait time. In theory a higher price will reduce wait time.

I doubt a manufacturer will ever put a hydronic system in a removalable camper. In a van or permanent mounted camper you can tap into the factory fuel tank. On a removable camper it would require an additional fuel cell which means two separate system if you want to sell to people with gasoline and diesel engines. Propane systems may not be as efficient but they work fine at attitudes you're going to frequent in North America. I've been at well over 12000' with no issues. Even the crappy Dometic furnace in our FWC worked over 11500'.

As far as solar you are better off with a portable 400w panel you can face towards the sun than 1000w on the roof. Flat mounted solar is inefficient. We're in Tucson with some friends. The 400w on the roof of their Bison are barely hitting 150w at the peak. Their 400w portable panels are pulling 350+ for most of the day.

Supertramp is killing it in the pop-up market. Their demand is the proof. I really like the idea of something simple like the Tune when it's simple. Once you start talking about adding a hydroponic system and $5500 in electric parts to a camper you have to climb over a tail gate to get out of in the morning I'm out. I guess that's the beauty of the market these days is there is something for everyone.

 

[Chadx]

I was going to post about the Storyteller being 58v and using a secondary High Output Auxiliary Alternator (as they call it), but then saw they changed from the Volta system to Lithionics and I have no understanding of the new Lithionics system, so I held off. But now that it was all mentioned anyway, yes their chosen secondary alternator puts out huge amounts of power. But 9000watts isn't that big of jump over a pickup stock dual alternator setup. Heck, a simple 12v 410amp (250 + 160amp) dual alternator system in a Ford Superduty is almost 5,000watts. Granted, 100amp of that is probably needed/dedicated to the pickup. There are a lot of aftermarket alternators that are 24v and 48v. Even the Ford Pro Power Onboard system uses a dedicated 24v 150amp (3,600watt) alternator to power the Pro Power 24v inverter.

In any case, I submit that fulltimers are not the target audience for Supertramp Flagship LT and the options reflect that. There is limited room, designed in, for battery bank (limited to 400amps spread over two compartments unless you utilize the storage area in the front bench over the water tank or stack them deeper in the drivers side compartment). 65quart fridge. 24 gallon water tank. True that you can fulltime in anything, including a pickup with a topper shell. The fridge and water tank can simply be replenished more frequently, but for the power side of the equation, fulltiming was likely not part of the original design intent.

There are those that have done extensive solar and DC charging upgrades to support the 400Ah battery bank (@DTAdventure) as he intends to go fulltime and has been doing lots of remote working experiments with Starlink, large computer monitor, electric tea kettle, A/C, etc. He posts here on Expo but for those interested, his main build thread is on the Tremor forum here: https://www.fordtremor.com/threads/project-tahoe-take-me-around-the-world.12022/ and he is active on the Supertramp Camper Owners group on FB. He removed the stock DC charger and solar controller and replaced them with two 50 amp REDARC chargers. REDARC chargers are combination chargers so each one can use multiple inputs at the same time (solar and 12v DC for example). He increased his rooftop solar to around 600watts and has several 200watt portable panels. And gets a lot of DC charging, with the twin 50amp REDARCs, when 'engine on'.

Supertramp has received a lot of feedback and is working up an optional DC charging upgrade package that will give a slight DC charging bump to high energy users (office/computer/starlink users and heavy Air Conditioner users) with the 400Ah battery bank. I understand 400Ah is relatively small when compared to some of the vans, in particular the Storyteller, but again, different target audiences. Most slide-in, pop-top pickup campers are intended to be light, compact and agile and adding more and more features works against those traits. That is why hard-sided slide-in campers tend to be utilized more often for fulltiming and often 8' rather than 6.5' as the extra space allows for some of the things mentioned (hydronic heat, larger battery bank) and more features (dedicated wet bath, more storage inside, more roof storage or larger roof for more solar, etc.)

We ordered our Supertramp without A/C. I'll have 200Ah of battery. In our two previous campers, the first camper had 150Ah of AGM battery (so 75Ah usable) and one 180watt solar panel. The second camper had 100Ah LiFePO4 and one 200watt solar panel. We used about 25 - 30amps per 24 hours and so on a sunny day, even up here in Montana, we were back to 100% SOC by late morning. While the truck was wired to utilize DC-to-DC charging, I kept it disconnected under the hood (On Off switch) because it was never used. It was there if it was needed, which was one time in 6 years. We were on a week long trip where it rained every day (pacific northwest in September) and I needed to flip the underhood switch to DC charge on the fifth day for a few hour drive.
So, for our typical trips, 100Ah battery would be fine, but I went with 200Ah in the Supertramp just because I intend to use the inverter (we upgraded to 2000watt) for portable induction burner, electric teapot, and re-charging other batteries (electric dirtbike, eMTB and fishing boat trolling motor batteries). Plus, the pop-top actuators were an unknown power draw, though I assume low if only run up and down a couple times a day. Considering all that, we went with 200Ah of battery rather than 100Ah.

All that to say, there are a lot of different use cases and so very different power needs. I appreciate there are those that want or need vast amounts of power. There are ways to retrofit that into such a small camper, but doing so is pushing the envelope, so will come with challenges (cost, space, etc.) and compromises. I personally find it very interesting to hear build-out details from those that are really pushing the limits and really building these things out, even though it is very different from our needs. I love messing with batteries, wiring and chargers (solar controllers, DC/DC, AC/DC) and I won't get to do that with the Supertramp like I did in my previous campers, so I need to get my fix by chatting with those that are taking it to the next level. Ha.

In the bigger picture, the discussion/comparison over the last few pages boils down to the same thing as always...There are many different rigs out there with vastly different intended purposes and we can't have everything in a single rig. It's all about compromises and deciding what is a 'must have' and what is a 'nice to have', weighting all the line items in that list, and then compromising on what to leave off in order to get those things weighted higher on the list. Or, have two rigs, but that is also a compromise (much more expensive, when you are using one you'll wish for some of the features of the other, etc.).

The 'Storyteller Mode LT' is a cutesy blend of the Storyteller's "Mode" naming convention for their vans and the Ford 'Model T' since it's a Ford chassis.
"Mode LT / Model T".
That being said, the Storyteller model is called the LT. The Supertramp Flagship LT is also called the LT. And, the Storyteller is 'ST' and the Supertramp is 'ST'. So in the above posts, each time the subject of the paragraph is referred to as 'ST' or 'LT', I've had to do a re-read to understand if it was referring to the "ST LT" or the other "ST LT". Ha.

Regarding length, here are a few comparisons just for information (I'm using vehicles I've owned or researched since I have the spreadsheet handy).
232" (19' 4") - Storyteller Mode LT (Ford Transit chassis)
240" (20') - Storyteller Classic and Stealth Mode (Sprinter chassis)
252" (21') - Storyteller Beast Mode (Sprinter chassis) (presumably longer due to pushbar and rear racks)
229" (19' 1") - 2013 Toyota Tundra
238" (19' 10") - Ford F250 Supercab (extended cab) with 6.75' bed (This is the pickup I just bought for our Supertramp)
250" (20' 10") - Ford F250 SuperCrew (crew cab) with 6.75' bed

 

[jaywo]

Yep, sorry about the LT and ST. ST meant StoryTeller, and LT meant the Supertramp Flagship LT. Now I see how it was confusing.

Yeah, 250“ is what I would get because for us supercrew is a must because of the lower amount of cargo room in a Flagship. 18” is not nothing, and especially when in the van you sit in the very front with full visibility.
But 250” is by far my max. I don‘t want those mega long F550 + Earthroamer kind of rig, those things are like a huge bus. Too expensive anyway.

Any chance you know the new DC charging rate?

 

[Chadx]

Any chance you know the new DC charging rate?

Supertramp hasn't yet published, and possibly not yet decided on, the brand/capacity of the optional, larger DC charger. But @SimplyAnAdventure just mentioned, in the Tremor Forum thread, that Victron announced a very slick new DC charger: Orion XS 12/12-50A. I looked into it and here is how it compared to the standard Victron 30amp charger and links to specs. Spoiler, it is physically smaller than the 30amp. It is supposed to be available Q1 of 2024 here. I suspect that may be a new candidate for a larger Supertramp DC/DC charger. I pinged Supertramp about it this morning to see if they have it under consideration.

Paste from my other post:
----------------------
That Victron Orion XS is going to be a great little unit.

For those curious, dimension comparison is:
Orion TR Smart 12/12 - 30amp - 130 x 186 x 80 mm (5.1 x 7.3 x 3.2 inch)
Orion XS 12/12 - 50amp - 137.3 x 123.1 x 40 mm (5.4 x 4.85 x 1.6 inch)

Orion TR Smart 12/12-30
Datasheet: https://www.victronenergy.com/uploa...t-DC-DC-chargers-non-isolated-360-400W-EN.pdf
Page: https://www.victronenergy.com/dc-dc-converters/orion-tr-smart-non-isolated#downloads

Orion XS 12/12-50
Spec sheet: https://www.victronenergy.com/uploa...ion-XS-12-12-50A-DC-DC-battery-charger-EN.pdf
Page:https://www.victronenergy.com/dc-dc-converters/orion-xs-12-12-50a-dc-dc-battery-charger#pd-nav-image

 

[SimplyAnAdventure]

@Chadx I think you summed things up nicely in these posts, as well as your excellent post over on the Tremor forum.

I think the ST (SUPERTRAMP), I was confused as heck by that ST/LT things too hahaha... is not meant to be nor was it ever designed to be a full time living space. As you said you can full time anything, I have been casual friends with Eric and Brittany of Jeepsies (now @Hourless Life ) for 5 or more years, back when they were a family of three living in a JK with a RTT, anything can be done. Point is I think Supertramp is a niche market of a high end camper for people who have weeks to spend camping but aren't devoting there lifestyle to #vanlife. That customer is me, you and a lot of other people where we have the means to have a nice camper and want/ need to be comfortable with our significant other for a few weeks but in the end we go back home to a house. I admire the vagabond lifestyle and I think maybe I missed my calling for it a while ago. At this point i'm never not going to own a house and live in a car.

I've mentioned it before but in my dreams I retire early and do the work camp thing 6 months a year. In this dream I tow a camper with my F350 and set up somewhere like Escalante for 6 months, cut grass, and fix things all the while living in a larger comfortable camper with utilities. When i'm not doing that i'm out exploring the area with my vehicle/ camper. Next year, somewhere different. Point is to live in a ST full time i'd want at least a wet bath, a dinette and probably a little more space. But for 3-6 weeks at a time I think the ST is perfect.

Now in regards to power, I'm glad you pinged ST on that new DC/DC charger I mentioned on the Tremor Forum, it seems to be a simple solution to have more power. I think I am going to wait for an isolated version and double them up. Two 50A DC/DC chargers is more than enough power for anything I could ever need. I think in the Tremor post you mentioned running two sets of wiring vs one... I think that might be a good solution TBH i'd have to climb under and look, I was thinking 1 heavy wire to keep the connections to a minimum. I ordered my camper with as few holes in it as possible. (No side window, No Truma Eco Plus Plug) because I like the idea of the unit as solid as possible.

On the note of drilling holes, I do think I want to add an exterior outlet to the ST to plug in a portable solar panel, in my mind at least I would just run this to an additional solar charge controller so the roof and portable are independent of one another. I think the roof solar is enough but I'd like to keep things topped off if parked in the shade.

Of course all of this talk of additional solar, charging and power controllers could all be simplifed by just carrying my Honda 2200i generator. It's already converted to run on propane so it can sit right in the back seat of my truck. The few times a year when I might need more power I can just plug it in lol.

This is truly the golden age of campers, I can't tell you how often I walk out into my garage just to sit in the ST and think about upcoming adventures.

As always @Chadx thank you for your valuable input.

~SAA

 

[Chadx]

I posted this in the Tremor Forum, but think the cable size results are worth cross-posting here.

I was curious on cable size requirements for those considering upsizing DC/DC chargers. I used the Blue Sea circuit wizard that a forum member suggested (there are many, but this one is nice and simple). It is available as an app, but there is an online version for those that prefer that. Online version is located here: http://circuitwizard.bluesea.com/#
I used the following settings:
Voltage: 12v
Allowable voltage drop: 3%
Type of load: Fixed
Wire insulation rating: 105C
In Engine Room: Checked
The other settings didn't seem to change the recommended cable size (duration, Terminated on Fuse, In conduit/sheath, Extra thermal insulation).

I estimated (without actually measuring) that the full wire run would be about a 50 foot loop for the routing that Supertramp uses. That is cabling from the battery, down under the truck, back to the location on the passenger side rear bed near the bumper where Supertramp locates the connector, and then forward, within the camper to the DC charger location. Then doubled it to get the full length of the conductor ("combination of supply wire and return wire to complete this circuit" to use Blue Sea's exact calculator definition). It may be even longer than 50 feet, but I figured 20feet from battery to rear connector and 5 feet forward, through camper, to DC charger. 25' x 2 = 50'. But I'll show a few different length because it's interesting. Also showing cable size need for 30amp (stock DC charger capacity) and 50 amp (be that a REDARC 50amp or the new Victron XS 50amp). I also added a 100amp draw for those considering running two 50amp DC chargers off of one cable run. I compared the results across several calculators and they are all recommending about the same.

Load - Length of loop - Recommended wire size

30amp - 30feet - AWG 6
50amp - 30feet - AWG 3
100amp - 30feet - AWG 0

30amp - 40feet - AWG 4
50amp - 40feet - AWG 2
100amp - 40feet - AWG 2/0

30amp - 50feet - AWG 3
50amp - 50feet - AWG 1
100amp - 50feet - AWG 3/0

30amp - 60feet - AWG 3
50amp - 60feet - AWG 0
100amp - 60feet - AWG 4/0

There is some wiggle room with these sizes only because we are talking a DC to DC charger. If the voltage drops across the wire run, the DC charger will still output the needed/correct DC output voltage to the battery bank, but to do so, it will be drawing more amps to compensate for voltage drop. And, too small of a cable will mean more heat, which reduces efficiency even more.
The point being, as the length of loop increases, the need cable size increases by a surprising amount. And, for mods requiring an increased draw, it may be worth modifying the cable routing to reduce length and avoid huge cable sizes to support that increased draw. In the case of the Supertramp, the cabling routes to the rear of the pickup then back towards the front. Changing the routing, to enter into the front of the pickup bed and then into the front of the camper would likely reduce the length of the loop from 50 feet to 30 feet. For a 50 amp load, that would reduce the needed cable size from AWG 1 to AWG 3; a fairly good size difference. For 100amp load, that would reduce the cabling from AWG 3/0 to AWG 0.

 

[jaywo]

I edited my post, modified LT to Supertramp, and ST to Storyteller.

Chad. So with what you described, what would be the max charge rate? Can we get to 9000W? Since the batteries are a lot smaller (400ah at 12V, about 4800wh) I guess 5000W charging would be nice (30min to charge about half).

 

[Chadx]

To level set, since there are likely a wide variety of electrical familiarity reading these posts...
Watts is a unit of power (volts times amps).
Amps are a measurement of current (watts divided by volts)
Volts is a unit of electromagnetic force (watts divided by amps)

A 1,800watt electric heater on a 120v system uses 15amps (1,800w / 120v = 15amps).
On a 12v system, if one wanted 9000watts of power available for charging, that requires current of 750 amps (9000w / 12v = 750amps).

I'll note upfront that I'm calculating everything using the generic system voltage rather than actual voltage, just to keep it simple.

If we translate 9000watts within a 12v system, that is around 750 amps. That is a lot of current and not realistic (12v already showing it limitations for current throughput). That is why the extremely high output van battery systems use higher voltage alternators. Those alternators are dedicated because their higher voltage isn't compatible with any of the 12v circuits. Everything running off that alternator has to be the same voltage. In this case, that would be one thing; a DC/DC charger. A higher voltage system will use significantly smaller wires. You quickly see why Volta and Lithionics type systems use dedicated, higher voltage alternators (and presumably a high voltage DC charger).

Quick run through the calculator:

9000watts on 12v, 24v, 48v and 58v circuits.
12v / 750amp - 30feet - Result: "This calculation is out of range". AKA - Forget about it.
24v / 375amp - 30feet - AWG 3/0 to 4/0
48v / 187.5amp - 30feet - AWG 2/0
58v / 155amp - 30feet - AWG 4

5000watts on 12v, 24v, 48v and 58v circuits.
12v / 417amp - 30feet - Nothing good. AWG 5/0 isn't big enough as it has over 5% voltage drop.
24v / 208amp - 30feet - AWG 1/0
48v / 104amp - 30feet - AWG 6
58v / 86amp - 30feet - AWG 6

So 12v is not really reasonable for pushing 5,000watts (417amps) much less 9,000watts (750amps) for even a short 30' loop length (30 foot loop is for charger being 15 feet away from battery). If you are limited to 12v, you are probably looking at limiting yourself to about 200amps and that would be about 2,400 watts and still require huge AWG 4/0 cable. 100amps is more realistic on 12v.
12v / 100amp - 30feet - AWG 1/0
12v / 200amp - 30feet - AWG 4/0

And that is just for the wiring. For alternator, you would have to look at capacity of stock pickup dual alternators (current Ford Superduty can be up to 410 amps made up of dual alternators of 250amp and 160amp capacities). I picked my 200amp example above based mostly on limits of reasonable wire size on 12v than limits of alternator output. I'd guess there is 300amp of overhead available from a 410amp dual alternator setup after power truck components (at higher rpm; not idling), but getting 300+amps of 12v back to a charger isn't reasonable due to cable size.

I'd previously mentioned that the Ford Pro Power Onboard option uses a dedicated 24v 160amp alternator. The 24v cabling runs back to two little 12v AGM batteries (wired in series) under the rear seat and that powers a 24v Inverter. Batteries are needed as a buffer as you cannot run an inverter directly off the alternator. Same would be true of a typical DC/DC charger setup.

Tangent: I don't know how Volta had their proprietary 58v system setup. They may use a smart/programmed alternator that fed directly into the 58v battery bank or they dumped the current from a higher voltage alternator (48v perhaps) into a 48v DC/DC charger that would convert output to the needed 58v (Technically, a 58v battery would probably need at least 65v to charge).

Back to Ford Pro Power. If one had that option, the 24v 160amp would max output around 3,840 watts. Using our wire chart comparison, that would use a slightly more reasonable wire size of AWG 1.
24v / 160amp - 30feet - AWG 1

Summation:
- On a 12v system, 200amps (2,400watts) is really pushing it. 100amps (1,200 watts) is more realistic.
- On 24v dedicated 24v system/alternator (be that Ford Pro Power or aftermarket), one could reasonably be 24v 160amps (3,840watts) from the Ford 24v alternator to about 24v 200amps (4,800 amps) on an aftermarket dedicated alternator, but compact/economical 24v DC chargers of that capacity 160 - 200amp capacity would be harder to find.
- On a 48v dedicated system, which would be a dedicated aftermarket alternator, cable size becomes very reasonable with the potential for a lot more power. But (there is always a but), as you increase charge rate and voltage, now the chargers themselves become huge (hard to house) and expensive. Plus, the voltage becomes more dangerous.

Fun conversation!

 

[Chadx]

I forgot to mention 'C' rate. That is the max charge rate recommended for a lithium battery by the manufacturer. Usually max 'C' rate is 1, but they recommend 0.5 or less to maximize battery longevity. 'C' rate represents a percentage of the battery's amp capacity so a C rate of 1 means charging at a rate of 100% (equal to the amp hour capacity of the battery). So, 100Ah battery with max of 1C charge rate would be 100amp charge rate and 400Ah battery/battery bank, 1C would be 400amp charge rate. 0.5C on the 100Ah battery would be 50amp charge rate. 0.5C on a 400Ah would be 200amp.

So charging 200amps (2,400watts) or less on a Supertramp 400Ah battery bank is best practice. Keep in mind one will have solar input as you drive, so figure out the C rate you want to charge at and calculate your various inputs to size accordingly. If you want to limit input to 2,400 watts and you have 230watts coming in on solar controller, your DC charger should be less than 2,400 - 230 = 2,170 watts (180amps on 12v).

And while 0.5C is typically fine, if it's not needed, a bit slower is even better. Drop that down to 0.25C to 0.3C on a 400Ah battery bank, and now your are targeting 100amps to 120amp total charge rate. You could do 100amps of DC charging and the solar controller would be another 15amps for the stock one. That would also leave overhead for increasing solar array size (on the roof or with portable panels) to around 450watts total and bumping your solar controller to 30 amps.
100amps of DC would charge 400Ah battery bank in around 4 hours on it's own.
30amps of solar input would charge 400Ah battery in around 13.3 hours on it's own at full peek sun/production (shows how wimpy solar is).
But, combination of both is 130amps and would charge 400Ah of battery in around 3 hours.

All theoretical of course. Many factors to charging efficiencies and throughput, but have to start somewhere.

 

[DTAdventure]

I am very happy with the electrical upgrades I made to my Supertramp. I have the Starlink high performance dish and that thing just sucks the power out of the batteries. I also use a large monitor and power 2 laptops aka "additional heating" lol

I now have 2 x Redarc BCDC1250D units installed and get 1400W/100ah from the alternator when idling or driving. I have a total of 660W of solar on the roof - with room for more. With the additional solar I installed I can bring the camper batteries back to 100% by the time the sun goes down on a good sunny day under the right conditions in Winter. When I deploy one external, foldable 220W solar panel at the same time I am back to 100% by early afternoon even with a few clouds, but an overall sunny day. When I deploy two external 220W solar panels it goes even faster. And all this while I work from the camper with the high power consumption that I have.

@jaywo Feel free to ping me directly if you have additional questions. My rig may also come up for sale soon.

 

[Spencer for Hire]

I am very happy with the electrical upgrades I made to my Supertramp. I have the Starlink high performance dish and that thing just sucks the power out of the batteries. I also use a large monitor and power 2 laptops aka "additional heating" lol

I now have 2 x Redarc BCDC1250D units installed and get 1400W/100ah from the alternator when idling or driving. I have a total of 660W of solar on the roof - with room for more. With the additional solar I installed I can bring the camper batteries back to 100% by the time the sun goes down on a good sunny day under the right conditions in Winter. When I deploy one external, foldable 220W solar panel at the same time I am back to 100% by early afternoon even with a few clouds, but an overall sunny day. When I deploy two external 220W solar panels it goes even faster. And all this while I work from the camper with the high power consumption that I have.

@jaywo Feel free to ping me directly if you have additional questions. My rig may also come up for sale soon.

I see you may be selling soon. Why so since you have not had it that long. What are you thinking of buying instead.

 

[DTAdventure]

I see you may be selling soon. Why so since you have not had it that long. What are you thinking of buying instead.

My specific needs regarding usable work space are quite challenging. That is where I am running into limitations with my 'tramp. I have been pushing the limits and I think the limits are pushing back and it is impacting my productivity too much. If I would be just working off a laptop this would not be an issue, but unfortunately that is not what I do and the more trips I took the more obvious it has become. I love the thing, I love my truck - I can go places I never imagined to get to.

 

[Spencer for Hire]

My specific needs regarding usable work space are quite challenging. That is where I am running into limitations with my 'tramp. I have been pushing the limits and I think the limits are pushing back and it is impacting my productivity too much. If I would be just working off a laptop this would not be an issue, but unfortunately that is not what I do and the more trips I took the more obvious it has become. I love the thing, I love my truck - I can go places I never imagined to get to.

So what will be the next rig set up you think will work for you?

 

[DTAdventure]

So what will be the next rig set up you think will work for you?

Well, orders have been placed, but lead times are currently approx. 9 months. Not giving up on the dream and plan, but need a slightly larger home on wheels. I will share that in a new build thread soon.