Supertramp Paragon - Turnkey camper - Hardsided camper and 8' bed pickup

[RatBoss]

There is no one perfect rig for every use. Be realistic with ourselves and write down our exact needs and use then buy what matches that more closely is probably the best approach. Problem is most people don’t know what their use is either because they are new to overlanding, or because they expect their need to evolve (kids on the way..) or because they confuse actual use with what they dream of doing.

This is dead on, and I'm guilty of this. Life changes with kid(s) for sure, and it sounds like you've been able to keep things mostly the same which is awesome. For us surfing is becoming more of a priority activity as our little one can hang on the beach and us parents and switch off in the water (hence more coastal campground weekend trips). Compare that to mtb, its tough to be out on the bike for 3-4 hours at a time with the little one back at home/camp, and long hikes were possible with the child carrier but are getting tougher as he grows as well-and when he 'hikes' there is a lot of flower picking and not a lot of walking. So we adapt. In 10 years he'll probably be out-hiking me and doing backflips over me on the bike haha. And its easy to get caught up in the rig you'd want down the road, once work is winding down and longer trips become more realistic, etc...Long story short somedays I think the Outpost would have been a better use case for the trips we did this past year-but the OEV might be the better solution for the upcoming few years tbd...Either way we are happy with our setup, and are trying to spend more time in it over the next years (shooting for 50 nights/year).

Again realistically speaking for your scenario a box van makes a lot of sense. Although the Paragon would also do the job fine and arguably better than your OEV (except for height).

What are some box van examples? I would like to explore this more.

Noted on the lack of usability with the Paragon pass through. I don't think I'd want to drive anything longer than our current short bed crew cab 1 ton tremor-so if we did pivot to a Paragon down the road it would probably be the extended cab (8' bed) to keep the wheelbase similar (we are just have 1 kid + our dog).

Long ago I test drove sprinters and transits, and considered a van build out. I loved the driving position in the van, but didn't have an appetite to DIY and pivoted to the LC and spring bar tent while I was young and childless. The sprinter seemed cooler than the transit, but I really don't love MB cost of ownership, and diesel fuel in Baja isn't ideal either so I was always unsure of going in that direction. From a surfboard standpoint vans are probably easier than truck campers with the side the the vehicle and interior roof being great places to store them (although truck camper can work well for this as well).

In the world of Hardside truck campers I see 2 interesting propositions on the market (excluding top of the line luxury option): Outpost for low budget, and Paragon for high budget

The Northern Lite/Bigfoot traditional truck camper world still hasn't caught up it seems in terms of how big/heavy they are, as well as all the black water tanks and superfluous RV grade systems that I wouldn't want to manage. That said-they seem to get into a lot of places we like to visit, just at a snails pace instead of a moderate clip.

The guys at Outpost were so cool-I'm really curious to see what their 8' wet bath solution is. I don't love the way they mount to the truck-it seems washboard roads and ratchet straps wouldn't be friends compared to our Backcountry that is very secure. I wonder if there would be a way to make the 8' work with our current 6.75' bed?

I agree ST is cooler than OEV, but priced higher and not that different from a usability standpoint for a family of 3 + dog with the similar layout. Jumping to a flatbed side entry seems to really open things up, and the hardwall presents its own further storage/space advantages (with compromises too).

Fun chatting rigs, and I'm excited to see what the coming years continue to bring to this camper world.

 

[mk216v]

Having owned a lot more overland rigs than my signature dictates (E350 4WD, another E350, lots of involvement with other E-Series 4WD's, TransitRWD that was headed->Raptor/F150 4WD conversion, '19 F350 cab-chassis, fully built '19 F350 4WD pickup/Aterra, EarthRoamer XV-LT F550, now PowerWagon2500/EnduroSuperTourer), and being deeply involved with the Sprinter world..."cabins/campers" aside, IMHO as far as drivetrain comparisons, it's apples-oranges-grapefruits to be comparing the Ford E-Series which is still engineered from 1992 and NO OEM 4WD engineering as well, modern full-size pickup truck (Ford, RAM, Chevy) which has been impressively engineered/vastly improved over time to haul heavily loads all the time and OEM 4WD system that costs less than $5k or so!, Mercedes Sprinter AWD (no without selectable low range t-case) that has pretty poor articulation off-road even with the top of the line susp upgrades.
Horses for courses with each of them, but all in all, the modern full-size pickup truck is going to ride/handle the best on pavement, perform the best overall off-pavement/off-road, be the most reliable in terms of hauling heavy loads, petrol option is welcome as it's less weight/cost/complexity (this re: E350 Godzilla cutaway and full-size truck vs Sprinter modern turbo diesel and all the headache-inducing modern emissions equipment), etc.

Ford box van cabin quality (Unicell, JC Supreme, Morgan, etc) will not compare to Supertramp or the like; two different animals.

I enjoyed my 20yo EarthRoamer XV-LT, but even with a 10yo ER vs a brand new rig, you'll be dealing with 10yo parts aging, 10yrs behind in terms of engineering improvements, Kelderman air susp possibly having reliability issues vs a "standard" damper/leaf spring or damper/coil spring susp, handful of 41" tires available for a super single setup vs LOTS of tires available in 33-37" size, etc.

Depending on how ST builds their pass-thru, if they make the rear seats individual captain's chairs, then the pass-thru is easier to pass thru. If they retain a bench seat, then yeah you'd have to crawl thru a little hole. My XV-LT pass-thru was easy to use as a 6' active individual.

Carli Trophy hitch setup not needed to fit a 37" in the spare F350 location (at least it wasn't on my 2019); with a worn-down or shaved 37" tire, very slightly deflated, it WILL fit in the OEM spare tire location.
I did love my custom-tuned Carli/King/Deaver pintop 2.5". That being said, my PowerWagon with full custom-tuned Thuren/King/Carli(coils) 2.5" is even far more impressive--I absolutely LOVE IT!!! And so far I believe this is due to the overall GVW of the Enduro rig being ~1000lbs less my Aterra setup, and RAM running coils in rear vs leafs in rear on the Ford. Coming home on twisty hwy1 from SLO to Monterey, I was able to drive it like a sporty SUV. Can't do the same with a 5ton E350 4WD, Sprinter AWD (even with full VC rally struts), certainly not an ER.

This Supertramp Paragon is very impressive for the intro price. Definitely a hook, leading to a $250-300k fully-optioned rig.
Note that there is another option in-progress for the ~$300k fully-optioned full-size truck comparable. REALLY excited to see it come to market. Perhaps they'll let me share some info...

My $0.03, take it for what it's worth.

 

[jaywo]

This is dead on, and I'm guilty of this. Life changes with kid(s) for sure, and it sounds like you've been able to keep things mostly the same which is awesome. For us surfing is becoming more of a priority activity as our little one can hang on the beach and us parents and switch off in the water (hence more coastal campground weekend trips). Compare that to mtb, its tough to be out on the bike for 3-4 hours at a time with the little one back at home/camp, and long hikes were possible with the child carrier but are getting tougher as he grows as well-and when he 'hikes' there is a lot of flower picking and not a lot of walking. So we adapt. In 10 years he'll probably be out-hiking me and doing backflips over me on the bike haha. And its easy to get caught up in the rig you'd want down the road, once work is winding down and longer trips become more realistic, etc...Long story short somedays I think the Outpost would have been a better use case for the trips we did this past year-but the OEV might be the better solution for the upcoming few years tbd...Either way we are happy with our setup, and are trying to spend more time in it over the next years (shooting for 50 nights/year).

We haven't had the need to change how we camp because 1) baby is super easy 2) what we do when camping is still doable with a baby.
We have had to completely change things we would do when not camping though. Adios ski touring and ice climbing...
I haven't thought about the surfing working well with kid because they can enjoy the beach while you surf. Great point. I need to get into surfing asap.

What are some box van examples? I would like to explore this more.

I am getting a bit of topic, although not entirely because this is competition / for comparison purposes. But I will give you a few examples:
OVP Tahoma E. Reputable builder, great systems. 37" tires + diff lock. Drop down bed with option of either N/S or E/W, with actual queen bed in the front for the kids. This is the best family layout in the category for me.
They also have the Tahoma S (Sprinter version) on 33s. See my comment on Sprinters in my answer to mk216v below.
Then for Sprinters you have NOMAD RV. They make custom layouts as well, including extra seats for kids etc. They are also releasing their Ford E version soon.
Lastly, best value in the market at $195K (unlike the Paragon this almost fully loaded and includes 10000w solar, 10,000wh battery, full bath, etc) is the Geotrek Verus. They are working on a family layout (currently would work for 1kid bot not 2).

All of the above have big pass through, swivel seats so your cab is part of the living space (and with seats that can recline and are actually comfortable to seat on unlike most dinettes), and big garages for bikes and surf boards. For pure off-road performance, only the Ford E will compare. Although for beach trips and the type of off-road you described, I bet a Sprinter with good suspensions on 33s would work well.

The guys at Outpost were so cool-I'm really curious to see what their 8' wet bath solution is. I don't love the way they mount to the truck-it seems washboard roads and ratchet straps wouldn't be friends compared to our Backcountry that is very secure. I wonder if there would be a way to make the 8' work with our current 6.75' bed?

Yes this works perfectly. Seen many people camping with 8ft hard sided Scouts on 6.75 bed. You either keep tailgate down as a step/seating/shoe space, or you remove it entirely, In fact this would be my preferred setup to keep things shorts. Works especially well because Outposts models are a bit shorter than the actual bed length. Also they put water and batteries a the very front of the camper, so those heavy items would still be forward of your rear axle.

For me the big cons of an Outpost is that a big slide in looks terrible. I know it's just look but still. There are a few bad things as well such as gray water, battery option maxing out at 5000Wh, water limited to 20 Gal (even on my smaller truck camper setup I have 25 Gal...) etc. They would need to address all of that first for me to consider.

I don't think I'd want to drive anything longer than our current short bed crew cab 1 ton tremor-so if we did pivot to a Paragon down the road it would probably be the extended cab (8' bed) to keep the wheelbase similar (we are just have 1 kid + our dog).

On my Ford crew cab, my seat is all the way back and already touching the rear facing toddler seat. Extended cab cannot work for me. If it does for you, it's a great way to save on length! I am jealous of shorter people in the camping world.

I agree ST is cooler than OEV, but priced higher and not that different from a usability standpoint for a family of 3 + dog with the similar layout. Jumping to a flatbed side entry seems to really open things up, and the hardwall presents its own further storage/space advantages (with compromises too).

Fully agree

The modern full-size pickup truck is going to ride/handle the best on pavement, perform the best overall off-pavement/off-road, be the most reliable in terms of hauling heavy loads

As a 2023 top of the line Ford truck + camper owner, and having driven top of the line new van models (with the full van compass package etc), and as an engineer, I respectfully disagree. While I love my setup, I was very impressed with the ride and handling performance of the van (in some ways better, in some worst). And my setup is way lighter than this Paragon will be and I would argue my current setup handles much better than this type of rig.

The modern full-size pickup truck is going to ride/handle the best on pavement, perform the best overall off-pavement/off-road, be the most reliable in terms of hauling heavy loads

Carli Trophy hitch setup not needed to fit a 37" in the spare F350 location (at least it wasn't on my 2019); with a worn-down or shaved 37" tire, very slightly deflated, it WILL fit in the OEM spare tire location.

Note that there is another option in-progress for the ~$300k fully-optioned full-size truck comparable. REALLY excited to see it come to market. Perhaps they'll let me share some info...

People complaint about Sprinters in this forum but you see them all over Baja where somehow diesel would be an issue, and all over period. I have great friends who have been full timing for years in Sprinters and have nothing but good things to say about them. Tech is great, seating comfort is great. MPG is amazing. Articulation is overrated. With either diff locks or modern traction management systems, articulation is not what is limiting those rigs. Size, weight, clearance is. If articulation is what you want, the Tahoma E offers 22 degrees of it. More than any HD truck.
I am an active member of several Facebook user groups of a few different products (including top van manufacturers, Outpost, etc) and satisfaction on the Sprinter platform is great. I personally know people who were on the F350 platform with both 4WC and OEV and went back to a Sprinter. This forum is very anti sprinter for some reason but the truth is they are both great platforms with different pros and cons, and depending where one is more or less sensitive to each compromise, then one platform can make more sense than the other.
By the way, Mercedes teased their all new sprinter. It's coming as a 2027 model and it is said they have taken into account the need of the overloading community (since they are selling so many for that community, compared to 10Y ago when the previous platform was designed). This will be top of the line as far as "cabin tech" goes at least. Everything else including gas version for the US remains to be seen.
The Carli Trophy is included in the suspension package for the Paragon, you can't separate it. Plus, Carli is saying it's needed to fit 37s. In any case, I don't think many users of a rig like that want to use a deflated shaved tire for it to fit? I personally do a 5 tire rotation including spare, and I would recommend anyone serious about offloading do the same.

For for your last note: you can't leave us stranded without any info

 

[spfrom1973]

Ya'll aren't starving for words

 

[mk216v]

As a 2023 top of the line Ford truck + camper owner, and having driven top of the line new van models (with the full van compass package etc), and as an engineer, I respectfully disagree. While I love my setup, I was very impressed with the ride and handling performance of the van (in some ways better, in some worst). And my setup is way lighter than this Paragon will be and I would argue my current setup handles much better than this type of rig.

People complaint about Sprinters in this forum but you see them all over Baja where somehow diesel would be an issue, and all over period. I have great friends who have been full timing for years in Sprinters and have nothing but good things to say about them. Tech is great, seating comfort is great. MPG is amazing. Articulation is overrated. With either diff locks or modern traction management systems, articulation is not what is limiting those rigs. Size, weight, clearance is. If articulation is what you want, the Tahoma E offers 22 degrees of it. More than any HD truck.
I am an active member of several Facebook user groups of a few different products (including top van manufacturers, Outpost, etc) and satisfaction on the Sprinter platform is great. I personally know people who were on the F350 platform with both 4WC and OEV and went back to a Sprinter. This forum is very anti sprinter for some reason but the truth is they are both great platforms with different pros and cons, and depending where one is more or less sensitive to each compromise, then one platform can make more sense than the other.
By the way, Mercedes teased their all new sprinter. It's coming as a 2027 model and it is said they have taken into account the need of the overloading community (since they are selling so many for that community, compared to 10Y ago when the previous platform was designed). This will be top of the line as far as "cabin tech" goes at least. Everything else including gas version for the US remains to be seen.
The Carli Trophy is included in the suspension package for the Paragon, you can't separate it. Plus, Carli is saying it's needed to fit 37s. In any case, I don't think many users of a rig like that want to use a deflated shaved tire for it to fit? I personally do a 5 tire rotation including spare, and I would recommend anyone serious about offloading do the same.

For for your last note: you can't leave us stranded without any info

OxP; I’d suggest anyone considering one do more research and talk to current owners about their experience esp re: quality control so that you know what to expect going in. Nice people and interiors look very high quality, but from numerous firsthand experiences the suggested research is all I’ll say about this.

Geotrek Verus; I see Reika super singles, but no info about what this rig gets for susp to handle the increased weight. Any idea?

Curious what camper you have on your 2023 Ford F-Series, and what does it weigh wet? What susp, tire size?

I’ve driven lots of Sprinter 4WD/AWD’s (STO’s, Revel’s, custom vans; weighing 8400-9400lbs GVW wet) with 33s and full VanCompass stg4.3 or 4.3+ setups and some with Rally struts up front (all shocks 2.0” and 10way adj, struts 10way adj too), and while they’re the most impressive on sweeping mountain roads at up to 65mph with the Rally struts, compared with my current 2022 PowerWagon/EnduroSuperTourer (9900lbs GVW wet) with 37s and Thuren/King 2.5” for example, the PowerWagon still outdrives the Sprinters on pavement IMO. Off-pavement/off-road it’s not even close.

I’d expect a rig like the ST Paragon to come in at ~12,500-14,500lbs wet. So compared to either the Sprinter or PowerWagon above, the Paragon will definitely not be as confidence-inspiring on or off pavement. My ER XV-LT was ~16,000lbs wet, and even with 2.5"/2.0” Kings and Kelderman air, the rear end weight (10,500lbs) was very noticeable all the time. Night/day difference in driving dynamics ER XV-LT F550 vs my Enduro RAM PW.

Like you, I am also on many FB Sprinter groups, and am not poo-poo’ing or anti-Sprinters at all as I've deeply invested in them; tech is pretty good albeit I’d say overcomplicated in some areas(typical Mercedes overcomplicating), seating is good, MPG is very good, visibility out the front is very good, and like with any van with a large OEM pass-thru the ability to easily get from drivers cab to cabin is a big bonus for many.
Diesel engine (only option with 4WD or AWD on a Sprinter thus far) vs a petrol engine in F or E; no comparison in terms of reliability. Sprinter diesel issues like with any modern diesel; all sorts of emissions-component-related issues from random limp modes, software updates being required to clear CEL/fault codes, DEF tanks clogging, DEF pumps failing, SCR/cat and DPF failures, NOx sensors failing, intake manifolds getting clogged with soot at higher mileage, bucking from EGR valve issues due to soot…some of these components are covered by 10yr emissions warranty, but some owners have found it quite inconvenient when the nearest competent MBZ dealership is 3+hrs away. Petrol engine in the Ford F or E is fairly straightforward comparatively.

Articulation; numerous YT videos of Sprinters (even with great susp) off pavement show they’re easily struggling to move up a rocky incline—lots of throttle required, extra throttle required to engage help from ESP to get some traction, van very tippy in any cross-axle terrain. Yes, an LSD or locking diff in the rear can help considerably in RWD and 4WD/AWD, but IMHO they definitely pale in performance off-pavement to full-size truck with OEM 4WD(even in RWD mode).

I'm not poo-poo'ing Ford E-Series either. They're robust, perform well, I've enjoyed mine, still have many friends with them and they have a place at the table for sure. They are getting long in the teeth though, with even the current Godzilla-powered Cutaway model being just a facelift of the 1992-engineered (34yrs ago!) E-Series. It's been amazing how far the full-size trucks have come even in the last 10yrs of engineering optimizations.
A 4WD E-Series; you are aiming to compare the E-Series which was never engineered to have 4WD and a 4WD conversion that costs $30k, to a full-size truck's factory/OEM 4WD system which has had millions of engineering $$$$ put into it and costs ~$5k. 37s on an E-Series requires considerably more work than 37s on an F-Series (some F-Series coming from Ford with 37s factory).
Tahoma E and the supposed 22deg of articulation; who is going to rock crawl a Tahoma E?
To give us all an apples-apples reference, what deg of articulation does a 2025 F350 or RAM 3500 or Chevy/GMC 3500 offer?

Copy on the ~$4k Carli Trophy hitch/spare tire basket being included in the Paragon. Agreed that a 5tire rotation is optimal to keep the ABS/ESP happy in case of a flat tire, just pointing out that there are other routes for fitting a 37” spare if someone wants to point the ~$4k towards something else on their own F-Series build.

I’ve asked said company if I can share about their upcoming model that will compete head-head with the ST Paragon; will do if they’ll allow.

Some snapshots are fun to look at for this Sprinter vs E-Series vs F-Series (or other full size trucks--yes, I know the RAM is lifting a rear tire), but videos are much much better to get a more accurate perspective.

 

[Chadx]

...I’d expect a rig like the ST Paragon to come in at ~12,500-14,500lbs wet. So compared to either the Sprinter or PowerWagon above, the Paragon will definitely not be as confidence-inspiring on or off pavement. My ER XV-LT was ~16,000lbs wet, and even with 2.5"/2.0” Kings and Kelderman air, the rear end weight (10,500lbs) was very noticeable all the time. Night/day difference in driving dynamics ER XV-LT F550 vs my Enduro RAM PW.

I don't know a projected curb weight for the Paragon, but for comparison, the Supertramp Megatron (which is on a Elevation Off-Grid F550 chassis), is about 14,000lb. So I expect a good amount of weight savings over that.

Copy on the ~$4k Carli Trophy hitch/spare tire basket being included in the Paragon. Agreed that a 5tire rotation is optimal to keep the ABS/ESP happy in case of a flat tire, just pointing out that there are other routes for fitting a 37” spare if someone wants to point the ~$4k towards something else on their own F-Series build.

The Carlie Trophy Hitch is an EXPENSIVE piece of kit. While it's included in the optional "Suspension Stage 2 kit" on the Paragon, somewhere in the price of the option is the hitches $3,265.00 parts price plus labor to install. It will hold up to a 38" spare tire. The stock Ford Superduty spare tire area will allow at least one brand of 37" tire (Toyo AT3) to be "persuaded to fit" since that particular 37 is on the small side, but yes, still needs to be aired down and is easier if it has some miles on it, to wear down the tread a bit, rather than being brand new. I'd not want to do a 5 tire rotation with that spare and deal with it each time, but at least it's an option for those with the 'will to cram'. It sounds like it could be a bit of a chore pulling it out in the field, but at least you have gravity on your side. And if you are putting a flat back into that spot (rather than throwing it in the camper to get to the tire shop), well then it's already aired down! Ha. The entire operation would, however, be made easier with the Trophy Hitch in place and if are $250k+ into it, then the hitch is just a little blip. Just get it, don't do the match, and enjoy it.
That being said, luckily tires are better than ever and flats are fairly rare and most can be plugged or patched while still on the truck. Even some pretty decent sidewall tears can be patched to at least get you back of a narrow trail and to level ground or the highway to swap with your spare.