Surprised no one is discussing the Cybertruck today.

C

calicamper

Expedition Leader
rruff said:
It's hard for me to take any mandate seriously that supposedly happens 12 years in the future...

The proposal does indeed propose to outlaw the sale of new ICE only cars by 2035. Didn't see anything about trucks. And hybrids with 50 miles of EV range are allowed. Of course used cars sold before then are ok.

Based on recent history and reality, EVs will likely be better and cheaper than any ICE offering in 12 years, making it a moot point. If not, then far future mandates are very often revised.
Click to expand...
“Only” is the word Fox news followers missed. And Fox glazed over😆.

Any plugin hybrid that already exists meets the 2035 requirement 😆. But as I said even a yr before the bill was presented (full MAGA) drama was in effect and every BS news org was spinning up any tale that would ruffle the target population into donating $ for someone that they thought was a fixer for their paranoid fears.

Not to mention long term Automotive technology goals get tweaked all the time. Hell we were all supposed to have flying auto cars by now according to the 1970’s people.
 
life_w_vagabonds

life_w_vagabonds

Explorer
NevadaLover said:
The "ban stories" are not stories when they are listing the executive order that actually is banning new ICE vehicles.

As long as EV's still suffer from the limitations they have, i.e. range, cost, limited or unavailable towing, insufficient charging infrastructure etc.. there is going to be a need for ICE vehicles, eliminating the availability of new ICE vehicles is an impediment to many who need more of what EV's lack.

If the Chinese EV's are so superior to domestic offerings then they will be here eventually no matter what political morons do, that's how a free market society works, but that is dependent on being offered a superior product that withstands the test of time, something Chinese products fail to do historically and frequently.

I'm not going to get into a discussion of the "science" and feelings, both are completely subjective and the quickest way to get a thread shutdown is by going down those rabbitholes.
Click to expand...
Science is subjective? But your “personal liberty” is not?

I think we’re done here.
 
LRNAD90

LRNAD90

Adventurer
rruff said:
It's hard for me to take any mandate seriously that supposedly happens 12 years in the future...

The proposal does indeed propose to outlaw the sale of new ICE only cars by 2035. Didn't see anything about trucks. And hybrids with 50 miles of EV range are allowed. Of course used cars sold before then are ok.

Based on recent history and reality, EVs will likely be better and cheaper than any ICE offering in 12 years, making it a moot point. If not, then far future mandates are very often revised.
Click to expand...

Only cars huh? See Below. 12 years? Yeah, don't be surprised to see that date change. And as for existing ICE cars, they will regulate them off the road by taxing their fuel, and them to the point were the vast majority of people can't afford them.

I'm sure you will disagree, and I hope you are right and I am wrong, but you must not be paying much attention to what is happening in the world if you really believe so..

calicamper said:
“Only” is the word Fox news followers missed. And Fox glazed over😆.

Any plugin hybrid that already exists meets the 2035 requirement 😆. But as I said even a yr before the bill was presented (full MAGA) drama was in effect and every BS news org was spinning up any tale that would ruffle the target population into donating $ for someone that they thought was a fixer for their paranoid fears.

Not to mention long term Automotive technology goals get tweaked all the time. Hell we were all supposed to have flying auto cars by now according to the 1970’s people.
Click to expand...

And for both of your comments above, are we reading different executive orders? The first line states pretty clearly, "Executive order directs state to require that, by 2035, all new cars and passenger trucks sold in California be zero-emission vehicles"

www.gov.ca.gov

Governor Newsom Announces California Will Phase Out Gasoline-Powered Cars & Drastically Reduce Demand for Fossil Fuel in California’s Fight Against Climate Change | Governor of California

Executive order directs state to require that, by 2035, all new cars and passenger trucks sold in California be zero-emission vehicles Transportation currently accounts for more than 50 percent of…
www.gov.ca.gov www.gov.ca.gov

And in Aug 2022, CARB 'codified' the executive order's..

"https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/our-work/programs/advanced-clean-cars-program/advanced-clean-cars-ii

"By 2035 all new passenger cars, trucks and SUVs sold in California will be zero emissions. The Advanced Clean Cars II regulations take the state’s already growing zero-emission vehicle market and robust motor vehicle emission control rules and augments them to meet more aggressive tailpipe emissions standards and ramp up to 100% zero-emission vehicles."

We clearly aren't going to agree on this, but at least stop spreading 'misinformation'.

The TRUTH is, California has enacted law to ban the sale of ALL passenger/consumer vehicles by 2035, and multiple states (NY probbably the first) are jumping on the band wagon. Europe as well (they have been on this track even longer, not surprisingly).

Seems pretty clear you can't wait till the disaster that is current day California is forced on the rest of the country..
 
E

epyonxero

Active member
NevadaLover said:
If the Chinese EV's are so superior to domestic offerings then they will be here eventually no matter what political morons do, that's how a free market society works, but that is dependent on being offered a superior product that withstands the test of time, something Chinese products fail to do historically and frequently.
Click to expand...
The thing is the US isnt not a free-market. The auto industry is subsidized in many ways from the state laws protecting the dealer system, to federal protectionist laws to keep imports from competing with American brands, to the subsidies that support the oil industry and keep the cost of driving gas vehicles artificially low, to the willful lack of investment in public transit and passenger rail that makes it impossible for most people to live without a car.
 
NevadaLover

NevadaLover

Forking Icehole
epyonxero said:
The thing is the US is not a free-market. The auto industry is subsidized in many ways from the state laws protecting the dealer system, to federal protectionist laws to keep imports from competing with American brands, to the subsidies that support the oil industry and keep the cost of driving gas vehicles artificially low, to the willful lack of investment in public transit and passenger rail that makes it impossible for most people to live without a car.
Click to expand...

This is true about about free market economy to a point, we see many autos from import manufacturers, and we still see a lot of chinese products, vehicles included, that make it to the states, not in the quantity we see from other countries but they are here, and if the Chinese do finally succeed in making a quality product that meets or exceeds the needs of American buyers then the push will be to import them.

And in my experience, the United States has problems with mass transit because we the people don't want to be stuck in a bus, train or any other mass transit with other people en mass, that's one of the perks to being an American, if someone want to avoid mass transit and they have the ability, then they are free to do so.
 
ThundahBeagle

ThundahBeagle

Well-known member
LRNAD90 said:
Only cars huh? See Below. 12 years? Yeah, don't be surprised to see that date change. And as for existing ICE cars, they will regulate them off the road by taxing their fuel, and them to the point were the vast majority of people can't afford them.

I'm sure you will disagree, and I hope you are right and I am wrong, but you must not be paying much attention to what is happening in the world if you really believe so..



And for both of your comments above, are we reading different executive orders? The first line states pretty clearly, "Executive order directs state to require that, by 2035, all new cars and passenger trucks sold in California be zero-emission vehicles"

www.gov.ca.gov

Governor Newsom Announces California Will Phase Out Gasoline-Powered Cars & Drastically Reduce Demand for Fossil Fuel in California’s Fight Against Climate Change | Governor of California

Executive order directs state to require that, by 2035, all new cars and passenger trucks sold in California be zero-emission vehicles Transportation currently accounts for more than 50 percent of…
www.gov.ca.gov www.gov.ca.gov

And in Aug 2022, CARB 'codified' the executive order's..

"https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/our-work/programs/advanced-clean-cars-program/advanced-clean-cars-ii

"By 2035 all new passenger cars, trucks and SUVs sold in California will be zero emissions. The Advanced Clean Cars II regulations take the state’s already growing zero-emission vehicle market and robust motor vehicle emission control rules and augments them to meet more aggressive tailpipe emissions standards and ramp up to 100% zero-emission vehicles."

We clearly aren't going to agree on this, but at least stop spreading 'misinformation'.

The TRUTH is, California has enacted law to ban the sale of ALL passenger/consumer vehicles by 2035, and multiple states (NY probbably the first) are jumping on the band wagon. Europe as well (they have been on this track even longer, not surprisingly).

Seems pretty clear you can't wait till the disaster that is current day California is forced on the rest of the country..
Click to expand...
"Cars, trucks, and SUV's sold in..." blah blah blah.

Hmm. Sounds like another opening for the minivan segment. If memory serves, Iacocca skirted the smog rules that applied to passenger cars (but not trucks) by squshing a station wagon onto a small truck platform...they may be churning out ICE Doge Caravans like mad come 2035
 
rruff

rruff

Explorer
NevadaLover said:
This is true about about free market economy to a point, we see many autos from import manufacturers, and we still see a lot of chinese products, vehicles included, that make it to the states, not in the quantity we see from other countries but they are here, and if the Chinese do finally succeed in making a quality product that meets or exceeds the needs of American buyers then the push will be to import them.
Click to expand...
What Chinese vehicles are you thinking of? There aren't any licensed to use on the road that I'm aware of. The "needs of American buyers"...got some coffee in my sinuses when I read that. Maybe you meant the needs of American regulators?

The auto industry is highly protectionist. There are big tariffs (25%) on imported SUVs and trucks (unless from Mexico or Canada), and where China is concerned there is a 25% tariff on vehicles in the "car" class also. Passing our unique crash, safety, and emissions standards is an onerous and expensive process, which every new vehicle sold here must meet. It appears they don't have mandatory crash standards in Europe... there is an agency that tests them, but compliance isn't required. And as we all know, you can't personally import and license a vehicle in the US unless it's 25+ years old. This also isn't a rule in Europe.

If you wanna talk about freedom...

Tesla is the most most domestic car company with 100% US manufacture (actually on topic!). Ford is 2nd with 77.5%.

 
life_w_vagabonds

life_w_vagabonds

Explorer
rruff said:
What Chinese vehicles are you thinking of? There aren't any licensed to use on the road that I'm aware of. The "needs of American buyers"...got some coffee in my sinuses when I read that. Maybe you meant the needs of American regulators?

The auto industry is highly protectionist. There are big tariffs (25%) on imported SUVs and trucks (unless from Mexico or Canada), and where China is concerned there is a 25% tariff on vehicles in the "car" class also. Passing our unique crash, safety, and emissions standards is an onerous and expensive process, which every new vehicle sold here must meet. It appears they don't have mandatory crash standards in Europe... there is an agency that tests them, but compliance isn't required. And as we all know, you can't personally import and license a vehicle in the US unless it's 25+ years old. This also isn't a rule in Europe.

If you wanna talk about freedom...

Tesla is the most most domestic car company with 100% US manufacture (actually on topic!). Ford is 2nd with 77.5%.

Click to expand...
There are vehicles manufactured in China on US roads under familiar nameplates. Volvo is owned by Geely and builds cars in China. There have been a few GM vehicles, the specific names escape me, that were produced in China. BYD, a Chinese company builds buses here in California. If you get into parts content there are a lot of Chinese components in US vehicles. I recall there even being a fuss about Chinese made BMW motorcycle engines.

Many Chinese made, with Chinese branding, vehicles can pass our safety tests. There was just some press recently about Chinese cars sold in the EU that have 5 star safety ratings.

insideevs.com

Nio ET5, EL7 Get 5-Star Ratings In New, More Stringent Euro NCAP Crash Tests

The Nio ET5 all-electric sedan and EL7 zero-emissions SUV are the first models to be tested in Euro NCAP’s updated and stricter crash testing procedures for 2023.
insideevs.com insideevs.com

There could be a whole separate thread on Chinese auto manufacturing. Musk has said numerous times he only sees Chinese auto companies as competitors.
 
rruff

rruff

Explorer
life_w_vagabonds said:
Many Chinese made, with Chinese branding, vehicles can pass our safety tests. There was just some press recently about Chinese cars sold in the EU that have 5 star safety ratings.
Click to expand...
Yes, I forgot that some non Chinese companies were building cars in China for US import. The 27.5% tariff is apparently not enough to stop it. Most likely there are made there for China sales and world export, and adding the US to the mix was less costly than building a factory here. Any car company has unique challenges for entering the US market, and China in particular.

I don't think passing EU tests means they'd pass our tests. At any rate, they need to pass our tests before they are sold here.
 
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