TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

Haf-E

Expedition Leader
Surely Wouldnt mind to have one of these 100mpg trucks to cruise around http://www.viamotors.com/powertrain/ https://youtu.be/6VP7hUiLkSM

I can't stand it when people make these kind of statements - the 100 mpg truck is based on it only going 50 miles per day and doing 40 of that on the battery - so if it gets 20 mpg when the engine is running then it uses 1/2 a gallon to go the 10 miles... resulting in consuming 1 gallon of fuel for 100 miles with two battery rechargings. The energy used from the battery is not being included.

Its like saying my sprinter gets 2000 mpg on diesel since when I use B99 biodiesel, the fuel it consumes is only 1% diesel (ignoring the contribution of the 99% veggie oil based fuel) so I only use 1 gallon of diesel for every 2000 miles I drive.

Sorry for the rant - can't help myself sometimes...
 

biotect

Designer
..
Sorry Bio, but I immediately thought of Terrliner when I saw this:


12278782_10154411185393957_1628600128308244324_n.jpg


:)


Hi Iain:

That image is a hoot!!! :wings: ..No need for an apology.

I am always fascinated by what one might describe as the "argumentative shorthand" of images, their capacity to sum up a complex line of argument using no words whatsoever. Or, in the case of humorous images labeled with terse one-liners, their ability to state something so powerfully with just five words.

So when I see an undeniably very funny image like this one, after having a good laugh my brain kicks in, and I want to know why it's so darn funny. This image is worth pondering, for what it might say about the efficacy (or possibly the lack thereof....) of the TerraLiner.

There is a huge literature on why jokes are funny, the anthropology of humor, and the social and psychological function of laughter -- see for instance http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...ks-into-a-bar-and-asks-why-is-this-joke-funny , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laughter , and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slapstick . But one basic truism about humor has always struck me: that many jokes, even visual ones, depend on pain. We laugh because others feel pain. There is a certain inescapable current of sadism animating much or even most humor; we often do laugh at other people's expense.

This is most obvious in the case of slapstick humor, for instance "Roadrunner" cartoons where the hapless coyote gets repeatedly splattered and squashed. Sure, there's a Sisyphean quality to the coyote's endless struggle with the Roadrunner, and we laugh because the coyote is so full of pride and self-confidence, and always gets his comeuppance at the hands of the happy-go-lucky Roadrunner. But we also laugh because the coyote suffers -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wile_E._Coyote_and_The_Road_Runner and https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLL3uNn7f3npgkXGEU71mZSlb31vki3v-J :






Ethnic and class-based jokes then combine this sadistic element in humor with a bid to consolidate and re-affirm in-group class-identity and/or ethnic identity. So Iain, your image of a redneck motorhome conversion is funny because it says something about RV owners, as well as something about those who do not own RVs. Your image very clearly suggests that the upper and professional classes tend to think of RV vacationing as a rather low-brow, lower-middle-class or working-class sort of hobby. And it probably is.

In Europe those born into aristocratic or "grand bourgeois" family backgrounds will vacation in hotels or on yachts, meaning that they will vacation in such a way that other people can be paid to do the menial labor, i.e. the cooking and the cleaning. Whereas an RV vacation by definition means that somebody in the family (usually the wife) won't have much of a vacation at all, because she'll still have to cook and clean.

This image combined with a one-liner is then funny because it suggests that even when working-class or "trailer trash" types win the lottery, they still cannot escape their class background, as evidenced by the limited scope of their fantasy life and aesthetic taste. Their "dream home" is merely a trailer-park house on really big wheels, a ridiculous-looking cross between a conventional motorhome and the huge wheels + lift kit of a monster truck. The "aspirational fantasies" of this vehicle's owners still identify them as thoroughly lower class and redneck. Whereas if they had been born into money instead, they would never be fantasizing in this way, or so the image claims.

Here I am reminded of the current of humor that runs throughout The Beverley Hillbillies show -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beverly_Hillbillies :






The shows' characters are lovably immune to the monetary and prestige value of the luxury that surrounds them, and they often misinterpret the function of objects of conspicuous consumption. For instance, they misinterpret their mansion's swimming pool as a convenient pond where they fetch water using buckets, even though their mansion has perfectly good plumbing. Again, this is only humorous because we -- who presumably are not redneck Hillbillies -- experience a certain sadistic joy in knowing that you can take the Hillbilly out of the Ozarks, but you can't take the Ozarks out of the Hillbilly. We get to feel smugly secure in our class privilege, knowing that money alone will not enable such people to escape the aspirational "prison" and the bad taste of their class background. They will still have bad taste and a limited fantasy life, no matter how much money they stumble into.

Your image of a ridiculous motorhome conversion plays a similar game, allowing those of us who are members of the upper and professional classes to feel secure in the knowledge that there are cultural and educational "barriers to entry" that constitute our class-identity, barriers that no lottery win can erase. We can rest secure in the knowledge that the club that we belong to is a closed shop, and no mere lottery win will gain the hoi poloi access.


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Stepping back, I then find myself asking why RV vacationing should tend to have such déclassé connotations.

I am not the only person who asks this question. The entire RV industry constantly asks itself this question, because in Europe in particular, RV sales across all categories are steadily declining. As people become wealthier and have more disposable income for vacations, they tend to want to spend those vacations in hotels, and not in RV campgrounds. But oddly enough sailboats, no matter how small, have always been perceived as "upscale" and prestigious. And yet at the level of day-to-day functionality, there's not that much difference between a 50 foot sailboat and a 45 foot Class-A motorhome. Neither one is large enough to have crew quarters, and if a couple retires on a 50 foot sailboat, the wife will probably still find herself doing most of the cooking and cleaning. But somehow cruising around in a 50 foot yacht is widely perceived as a refined, quasi-aristocratic form of retirement, whereas driving around in a 45 foot Class-A is not necessarily so.

Hence, one of the goals in TerraLiner design that I've set myself is precisely to challenge such stereotypical cultural and class connotations. As the architect Matthew Hoffman so eloquently suggests in the following videos, living in a motorhome or a trailer can be and should be reimagined as the very pinnacle of luxury, because one enjoys a freedom not available to those who are tied to a fixed home (or even a second vacation home), lodged in just one place:



[video=vimeo;55262732]https://vimeo.com/55262732[/video]


Also see post #217 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1583938#post1583938 .

Unfortunately, especially in the United States, living in a trailer or a motorhome tends to be perceived as thoroughly déclassé.

So I ask myself: would your image be so funny if the vehicle were not so darn ugly? The problem isn't so much with the vehicle type per se, i.e. a very large RV. Rather, what screams "lower-class redneck" is the fact that this conversion is so ugly, and is merely a jerry-rigged amalgam of parts put together as a self-build. If this vehicle were not such a self-built automotive collage, and if instead it had been beautifully designed from scratch and had harmonious proportions, would the humorous one-liner still work? The mere fact that it's a self-build also signals the limited aspirational capacity of its redneck owners: they still insisted on designing and building it themselves. If they had in fact won the lottery, they could have paid someone else to do the work, and do a much better job. But because they are lower-class and redneck, as a matter of life-long habit they are aspirationally stuck in a culture of "do-it-yourself" and "self-build". Or so the image with the humorous one-liner added would suggest.

Here is a visual experiment: just substitute a photo of a Newell coach, and the humor vanishes. The one-liner no longer works:



6465933_2.jpg



Of course the one-liner also doesn't work with this photo because the Newell pictured is parked in front of a beautiful house, complete with two cars; a house that signals something to the effect,


"We own and live in a Newell coach by choice, not out of economic necessity. We could live in a more regular kind of house if we wanted to. We are not economically desperate trailer park trash!!! But we choose to live in the Newell, and just to prove it, notice our immaculately trimmed lawn. We can pay for a gardening service, but again, we choose to live in a motorhome."


In any case, I hope the above analysis was not too deflationary. The image that you posted, Iain, is very funny, and I am glad that you posted it. But I've also been trained to "deconstruct" images and their implicit messages, so I could not resist wanting to take it apart, asking why it works, and what it actually says.

All best wishes,



Biotect
 
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biotect

Designer
Hi Silverado,

Those are terrific leads!! Many thanks.


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1. VIA Motors VTRUX


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Thought I'd post some "VIA Motors VTRUX" videos, because the drivetrain that VIA motors has developed seems very relevant to the TerraLiner, even if a bit on the smaller side of things, because intended for small trucks -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VIA_Motors , http://www.viamotors.com , http://www.viamotors.com/powertrain/ , http://www.viamotors.com/vehicles/electric-truck/ , http://www.viamotors.com/videos/ , http://www.viamotors.com/pdf/ , http://cdn4.viamotors.com/wp-content/uploads/VIA-Small-Brochure.pdf , http://cdn1.viamotors.com/wp-content/uploads/VIA-Motors-Brochure-50-web.pdf , http://cdn1.viamotors.com/wp-content/uploads/VIA-VTRUX-Van-Flyer-42-Web.pdf , http://cdn2.viamotors.com/wp-content/uploads/VIA-VTRUX-Truck-Flyer-09-Web.pdf , https://www.facebook.com/ViaMotors/ , http://cleantechnica.com/2015/01/20/via-motors-begins-production-plug-hybrid-pickup/ , http://www.forbes.com/sites/brookec...ks-plug-in-hybrid-truck-production-customers/ , https://www.autonews.com/article/20...s-annual-sales-of-50000-plug-in-hybrid-trucks , http://www.hybridcars.com/2014-via-vtrux-test-drive-review/ , https://www.youtube.com/user/viamotors , https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCanXgm3Km626AKvdd9u9Kcg , and https://www.youtube.com/user/viamotors/videos?shelf_id=1&view=0&sort=dd :



[video=vimeo;120538499]https://vimeo.com/120538499[/video] [video=vimeo;78389387]https://vimeo.com/78389387[/video]



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biotect

Designer
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[video=vimeo;116796929]https://vimeo.com/116796929[/video] [video=vimeo;59163355]https://vimeo.com/59163355[/video]



Very relevant, of course, because these are work-trucks, and not mere city buses or delivery vehicles. And so too, because these VIA Motors trucks are not mere vaporware, and are now being produced in quantity in Mexico.



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2. ALTe


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The second reference you provided, to ALTe vehicles, seems a bit more vapor-warish, although I could be wrong. Not many videos in circulation on the web, and certainly no videos of actual production facilities, as per VIA Motors -- see http://www.altellc.com , http://www.altellc.com/product-line-up/the-f150-pickup , http://www.altellc.com/technology , http://www.altellc.com/news-and-media/media , and http://www.altellc.com/blog:






But at least on paper ALTe seems interested in developing drivetrains for larger vehicles, like delivery vans and buses -- see http://www.altellc.com/product-line-up/delivery-vans and http://www.altellc.com/product-line-up/transit-and-touring-buses . And ALTe has a very useful "Competitive Product Capability Comparison Chart", where it lists other current players in this market: XL Hybrid, Via Motors, Odyne, EVI, EDI, and BYD. All worth researching further -- see http://www.altellc.com/marketable-product-advantages .

So these are terrific leads, and again many thanks.


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biotect

Designer
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3. Pacwind Vertical Axis Wind Turbines


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Also many thanks for the lead on "pacwind"; unfortunately, the company no longer seems to be in business -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PacWind . It seems that pacwind's product line has been taken over by Desert Power Inc. -- see http://www.desertpowerinc.com/pdf/SeaHawk7-23-07.pdf , http://www.desertpowerinc.com/pacwind.htm , http://www.desertpowerinc.com/pdf/Aeolian7-23-07.pdf , http://www.desertpowerinc.com/pdf/Delta_I7-23-07.pdf , http://www.desertpowerinc.com/pdf/Delta_II7-23-07.pdf , http://www.freeenergystore.com/index6.html , http://www.ecofriend.com/pacwind-vertical-axis-wind-turbine-at-home.html , http://www.igreenbuild.com/siteSpecific/vendor/vendorDetail.aspx?vendorID=2346 , and http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a1654/4216780/ :






Pacwind's Delta I and Delta II wind turbines seem especially attractive, because they are rated at 2 KW and 10 KW respectively, and have designs in which perhaps the blades might fold flat, and the whole unit could then store quite compactly on the roof of the TerraLiner's TOAD trailer-garage:



Delta_I7-23-07a.jpg Delta_I7-23-07b.jpg
Delta_II7-23-07a.jpg Delta_II7-23-07b.jpg



Not sure how much engineering it would take. But something like these designs, in "fold down/fold flat" versions, would be ideal. I wonder if anything like what I am describing currently exists on the market?



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4. TerraLiner Safety


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As regards safety & security: I couldn't help notice that in the video you referenced, when his motorhome was attacked he was "free camping". He was "free camping" in the sense that he had parked on a city street, where he didn't have to pay for the privilege. Further along he realizes that it might be a better to..... yes, we can see it coming...... camp on someone's property. Behind a gate. About 8 minutes, 45 seconds into the video:






The only problem is that he's still looking for "free". "Free camping for a big RV that is simultaneously safe camping " is an oxymoron in most countries, including many parts of the United States. The only possible exceptions might be Canada, Australia, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland. Or at least that's the basic safety premise that I begin with. Everywhere else you get what you pay for, and if you pay nothing, then you get poor security and poor safety.

Silverado, just wondering if you'd be willing to save me some time. Would you have even just a few quick links to the very best threads on "rv.net" and "cheaprvlining.com" where safety is discussed?

All best wishes,



Biotect
 
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safas

Observer
The document as .xls
https://copy.com/2ScqgZhq1So0tmpj

Several notes:
* There are configuration parameters below the engine list, you can change them at will
* I often had to make guesses as to the fuel used. Jet-A or Jet-A1? There's a slight difference in energy density. Some diesels could run on diesel as well as kerosene. Which one did they use to get power or fuel consumptions measurements? Without hints I would always guess the fuel with the highest energy density.
* Some engines listed are experimental.
* Some don't look directly usable like air-cooled Zoche
* I have reservations about Deltahawk efficiency.
* I have changed (hopefully corrected) BSFC of Mitsubishi MG5-110. It was way too low and I found a document from Mitsubishi about this engine development. There wasn't exact BSFC, but there was target BSFC and it was listed in kg/kWh instead of lb/hp hr. After changing unit the number looks reasonable.
* Some parameters are sketchy. Feel free to correct.
 

safas

Observer
I can't stand it when people make these kind of statements - the 100 mpg truck is based on it only going 50 miles per day and doing 40 of that on the battery - so if it gets 20 mpg when the engine is running then it uses 1/2 a gallon to go the 10 miles... resulting in consuming 1 gallon of fuel for 100 miles with two battery rechargings. The energy used from the battery is not being included.

Its like saying my sprinter gets 2000 mpg on diesel since when I use B99 biodiesel, the fuel it consumes is only 1% diesel (ignoring the contribution of the 99% veggie oil based fuel) so I only use 1 gallon of diesel for every 2000 miles I drive.

Sorry for the rant - can't help myself sometimes...


I hate this usual lie.
And I hate that EU test cycle standardised it. That's why you don't see VW XL1 anywhere else; this is the only region where VW can claim 0.9 l/100 km. Lies, lies, stinking lies.
 

Iain_U1250

Explorer
It is interesting what people think about RV / motorhomes/Caravanners. Over here in Australia, they are the choice of the "Grey Nomad" or as some of the people in the more remote areas call them, the 'Outback Fleas'. Most of them drive a 4x4 ( Prado, Pajero, Outlander) with a road going caravan behind it, or a converted Toyota Coaster Bus or similar 4.5T ex-delivery truck with a slide on camper. They tend to congregate in large clusters, following the "Goldilocks Weather" up and down the east or west coast. They set up their camps on the outskirts of a small country town, around a river bed usually and stay there for a month or two, then move on leaving the place full of rubbish and toilet paper. They are mainly pensioners, and they hardly spend any money at all in these little towns, but will be there for any "free lunches" available, use the small public swimming pool as their shower block. They also complain about everything. As part of my work I visited a lot these small town that were on some of our pipeline routes, and our "Community Relations Information Sessions" which as supposed to be for locals to voice their concerns, were normally full of the Grey Nomads out for the free food and drink we would put on for the locals.

It think that is a lot to do with the "Lower Class" ( we call the "Bogans" here in Australia) image of the Caravans/motorhome brigade. Travelling around makes it possible to live off the Old Age Pension over here, as long as they don't spend much.


The more "up market" Fleas have a big LandCruiser with a massive caravan behind it, or a $150K "Winnebago" type motor home. They tend to go to the "Caravan Parks" where they stay for a few months, provided they have shore power, water, sewerage etc or can run their gensets all night to power the big split system a/c systems they have on the back of the van. . They have sold their houses and bought a huge caravan to live in, and they travelled around from caravan park to caravan park also following the "Goldilocks Weather". These are the type of people that Terraliner is more targeted to here in Australia. If it cost $500k, that would be about the limit. The guys with $1M to spend, they buy boats and spend their life at marinas.





12278782_10154411185393957_1628600128308244324_n.jpg
,

:)
 

biotect

Designer


Hi safas,

That is one truly intense spreadsheet!! :wings:


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1. Safas' Spreadsheet


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Everyone else: here is a JPEG "grab" of the first 25 % of the document:



Untitled2.jpg



safas, based on your research so far, what would you think might be the "best" engine to use in a genset?

Here the relevant considerations would be:


(a) fuel consumption per hour in absolute terms
(b) fuel consumption relative to horsepower, or "fuel efficiency"
and
(c) weight relative to horsepower.


The first is by far the most important, and the second and third much less so.

Regarding the third, it's fairly clear that turboshafts built for use in helicopters win hands down over piston-engined automotive diesels, with most turboshafts pumping out 5 times as many HP as they weigh in kg, and many topping 6 times. But I wonder if there really is much utility for the TerraLiner in an engine that weighs only about 140 - 180 kg and yet produces 1,100 HP to 1,600 HP, or 7 - 9 times as many HP as kg, as per some of the turboshaft engines made by Pratt & Whitney, Turbomeca, MTU/Rolls-Royce, de Havilland, GE, and LHTEC?

Here the "winner" would seem to be the LHTEC T801, which produces 1563 HP even though it weighs only 143 kg, in other words, 11 times the number of HP per kg -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LHTEC_T800 and http://www.deagel.com/Helicopter-Turboshaft-Engines/T800-LHT-801_a001705002.aspx . The LHTEC T801 is an engine developed jointly by Rolls-Royce and Honeywell, and sold by both -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LHTEC , http://www.rolls-royce.com/customers/defence-aerospace/products/uav/cts800.aspx#cts800-overview , http://www.rolls-royce.com/customers/civil-aerospace/products/helicopter-engines/cts800.aspx , https://aerospace.honeywell.com/products/engines/cts800 , http://helihub.com/tag/lhtec/ , and http://www.deagel.com/Helicopter-Turboshaft-Engines/CTS800_a001705003.aspx .

The LHTEC T801 does seem like overkill, because this level of HP is simply not needed. A high-performance helicopter needs an engine with this kind of power, but not the TerraLiner. The problem here is not merely "fuel efficiency" understood as fuel consumption relative to horsepower, but also absolute fuel consumption per hour. Although the LHTEC T801 turbine advertises itself as having the best "low burn" fuel consumption in its class, no doubt this simply means that it consumes less fuel per hour than any other comparable helicopter turbine that weighs just 140 - 150 kg, and yet produces 1500 HP. So it's not very meaningful. One of the websites suggests that when fitted to a Lynx helicopter, this engine will go through a typical tank of gas in about 3 hours, and 4.5 hours with auxiliary fuel -- see http://www.deagel.com/Helicopter-Turboshaft-Engines/CTS800_a001705003.aspx . So clearly, this is not an optimal engine for a road-transport application. All of the extra HP provided by the LHTEC T801 is in effect wasted and unnecessary, if what's needed instead is merely a 200 - 300 HP engine that is much more fuel-economical, in absolute terms.

Yes, it's a very interesting exercise to see how just how extreme the HP to weight ratio can get in a turbine. On the cruiser's forum thread that you mentioned, safas, the one that discusses turbines, one participant marvels:

It's amazing how much power a small turbine can make. I watched them change out one of the engines on a Seahawk (Coast Guard version of the Blackhawk) once, and was shocked at how small the thing was, and how light it was.


opbat269r.jpg



See http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f54/gas-turbines-106535.html . But for road transport the absolute level of fuel consumption is much more important than theoretical fuel efficiency, or overall genset weight. The genset weight is still important, but economical fuel consumption, in absolute terms, is paramount.



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2. Guesstimating the TerraLiner's Gen-Set Requirement


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What's really needed is two gensets that will produce:


(a) 255 KW of continuous power in total, or thereabouts
(b) that will weigh the least amount
(c) and most importantly, that will consume the least amount of fuel in order to generate just 255 KW of power


I guesstimated 255 KW for the combined generator output on the basis that the TerraLiner's three electric motors will have a peak output of 420 KW together. Why the difference between 255 KW and 420 KW? Well, here I reasoned by analogy to the VIA Motors' truck drivetrain, where the battery pack very clearly functions as a peak-power buffer -- see http://www.viamotors.com/powertrain/ . The VIA Motors' truck has a 190 KW peak power electric motor, but its generator produces only 115 KW, or roughly the same amount as a Jenoptik -- see http://www.viamotors.com/pdf/ and http://cdn2.viamotors.com/wp-content/uploads/VIA-VTRUX-Truck-Flyer-09-Web.pdf :



VIA-VTRUX-Truck-Flyer-09-Web1.jpg VIA-VTRUX-Truck-Flyer-09-Web2.jpg



So for the TerraLiner, it does seem that two Jenoptik generators would in fact be about the right size, if 420 KW of peak electric motor power were the TerraLiner's drivetrain goal.

Also consider the "dual mode" Van Hool 18 m bus shown earlier in the thread. It has electric motors rated for 240 KW, and is normally powered by electricity drawn from an overhead catenary grid. Away from the grid the Van Hool's supplementary APU kicks in, but produces only 100 KW, using a 118 KW diesel engine:



ATM_Milan_Trolleybuses_-_Main_Features_and_Experiences.jpg ATM_Milan_Trolleybuses3_-_Main_Features_and_Experiences.jpg



As egn pointed out many moons ago, and as campo agreed, a hybrid vehicle needs to strike just the right balance between the size of the electric motors, the size of the generators, and the size of the battery bank. Total parity of the power of the electric motors and the power of the generators -- as per Oshkosh in its ProPULSE system -- seems unnecessary, because the TerraLiner will have a battery bank to serve as a peak power buffer. But on the other hand, a wide discrepancy is not desirable either, because then the battery bank becomes too large. At a certain point it makes sense to go with bigger generators, instead of more batteries.

VIA Motors
may or may not have struck just the right balance. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that it has not, and let's err instead on the side of caution. Let's suppose instead that something more like 360 KW of continuous power is wanted from the diesel generators, or the power equivalent of 3 Jenoptik generators. The Jenoptik generator produces 120 KW of electric power using a diesel engine rated at 135 KW, and once again, the Jenoptik engine + genset combined weigh 350 kg -- see post #673 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...igid-Torsion-Free-Frame?p=1670215#post1670215 :



esw_euro5_apu_120kw_2012.jpg Untitled.jpg



So using the Jenoptik as our "diesel generator benchmark", let's say that the target to beat will be:


(1) A combined diesel motor power output of 405 KW, or 545 HP

(2) Which will will drive generators that collectively produce 360 KW, or 483 HP

(3) That together with the diesel motors, will weigh 350 kg x 3 = 1050 kg

(4) And the generator system must have excellent fuel consumption, in absolute terms. According to Steyr, the engine used by the Jenoptik is a 6-cylinder, 3.2 L "Type M160015-0", one that consumes 205 g per Kwh -- see http://powertransmissionguide.net/c/c.aspx/STE001/productspecs , http://www.steyr-motors.com , http://www.steyr-motors.com/automotive/ , http://www.steyr-motors.com/automotive/engines/diesel-engine-6-cylinder-3200-cm3-m16/ , and. http://www.steyr-motors.com/automotive/applications-gallery/ . So two Jenoptiks running simultaneously, one might surmise, would consume 410 g per Kwh.


VIA motors is not much help here. Although it tells us that its trucks use a GM 4.3 Liter V6 EcoTec3, an engine that can produce as much as 297 HP or 221 KW, I could not find any information anywhere for this engine's weight -- see http://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-engines/lv3/ , http://autoweek.com/article/car-new...ter-v6-ecotec3-truck-engine-specs-and-details , http://www.gm-efi.com/news/a-closer-look-at-gms-4-3l-lv3-v6/ , http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/...es/news/us/en/2014/mar/0307-silverado-v6.html , and http://www.onallcylinders.com/2014/10/03/ask-away-jeff-smith-inside-gms-new-90-degree-v6-engine/. VIA motors also does not tell us how much their electric generator weighs either. So it's anyone's guess what the weight-to-HP performance might be for the VIA motor's genset.

Given that the VIA motors generator produces only 115 KW, while the engine produces 221 KW, perhaps it is safe to assume that VIA motors' engine + generator combination will not weigh less than a Jenoptik. Although who knows? The GM 4.3 Liter V6 EcoTec3 LV3 at least claims to be a completely new, much more lightweight engine. On the other hand it does not seem to be turbocharged, whereas the Steyr motor used by the Jenoptik most definitely is turbocharged. And this matters, because turbocharging of a piston engine is absolutely necessary for the kind of high-altitude driving that the TerraLiner will need to be able to do.


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biotect

Designer

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3. Please, No Merely Rhetorical "Devil's Advocacy"


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So with that benchmark in mind, let's once again revisit microturbines, and figure out what the equivalent numbers will be for some microturbines, producing 360 KW in total of electric power.

But first, I want to insist on something quite strongly: NO DEVIL's ADVOCACY ALLOWED. Most of us already know all about the potential problems with microturbines, and because we already know, that's not what should be discussed here. Rather, the topics of discussion here will be much more specific, for instance: How much would a microturbine-based generator system weigh, compared to the three Jenoptiks described above? And how might its fuel consumption compare, in absolute terms, i.e. grams per Kwh? These and similar very focused, practical, quantitative questions should be the topics of discussion.

safas provided a very useful link to a discussion of diesels versus turbines on the cruiser's forum at http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f54/gas-turbines-106535.html . So in what follows, let's begin with the assumption that everyone has read those five pages of discussion on cruiser's forum. Just think of those five pages as having been added to this thread. Those pages are well worth reading, and that thread is not long, again just 5 pages. It covers the usual suspects, i.e. Bladon and Capstone microturbines, and it covers all of the standard objections to microturbines, like the heat that turbines produce, their noise, etc. etc.

If we begin from the assumption that those five pages in the cruiser's forum serve as tacit, common knowledge for this thread, then there should be no reason whatsoever to repeat their contents here. We are all capable of reading, and none of us are stupid. So let's just assume that everyone participating here has read that other thread, and that we've all digested its contents. That will then allow us to avoid more time-wasting devil's advocacy nonsense. In the other thread there are more than enough "devil's advocacy" posts that try to shoot down microturbines from every possible angle. Ergo, simply duplicating those devil's advocacy arguments here amounts to mere repetition; and mere repetition is boring, a major waste of time.

I should probably add that anyone who wants to contribute to the discussion in this thread probably should try to read that other thread first, on cruiser's forum. But that's not my major concern. Rather, my biggest concern is the kind of participant who has read the other thread, but who assumes that others on this thread haven't, and who decides to make it their personal mission to inform everyone on this thread of all the potential problems with microturbines. So I want to ask such would-be zealots to assume the opposite: to assume instead that all of us already are informed, and save themselves themselves and us the hassle of their missionizing. I'd like them to think that there is no need to bore us with posts that merely catalog once again all the standard objections to microturbines regarding heat, electronics, etc. etc. Because all of those standard objections have already been covered, in the other thread, which we've all read.

Using a microturbine to generate power instead of a conventional piston diesel engine will be innovative. And yes, there will be problems or "concerns". But the thread on the cruiser's forum has already addressed such concerns, and then some. So let's just agree that innovative does not mean proven. If microturbine range-extenders in automotive applications were proven technology, they would not be innovative. So pointing out possible problems amounts to nothing more than stating the obvious: microturbine range-extenders will be innovative, not proven technology, and there may be problems. Noticing this merely amounts to stating a tautology, stating something that is true by definition. Again, extremely boring.


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4. Wrightspeed Revisited


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Now Wrightspeed originally offered its drivetrain using a Capstone 65 KW generator. So it's interesting to learn that more recently Wrightspeed has come out with its own, 100 % proprietary microturbine generator, a 80 KW generator specifically designed for automotive applications, called the "Fulcrum" -- see https://www.wrightspeed.com/technology/the-fulcrum/ , http://gas2.org/2015/05/07/wrightspeed-micro-turbine-range-extender/ , http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/05/wrightspeed.html , http://www.greencarcongress.com/2010/11/wrightspeed-20101109.html , http://www.automotiveworld.com/analysis/fulcrum-give-cv-electrification-leverage-requires/ , http://cleantechnica.com/2015/05/10...r-for-medium-heavy-duty-electric-powertrains/ , https://chargedevs.com/newswire/wri...generator-for-range-extended-ev-architecture/ , http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...lectric-vehicle-range-extender-300076398.html , and https://www.wrightspeed.com/products/the-route-hd/#features :



6a00d8341c4fbe53ef01bb08284ad4970d-800wi.jpg


[video=youtube;bsKtBTU9PIM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsKtBTU9PIM [/video]


The Fulcrum generator weighs 250 lbs or 113.4 kg, so its power-to-weight ratio works out to 700 W per kilogram, whereas the Jenoptik works out to 314.3 W per kilogram.

To say that the Wrightspeed generator is "ten times" as light as comparable piston-engine generators is clearly an exaggeration. But it certainly is light, and more than twice as light as a Jenoptik generator. So too it is lighter than the Capstone 65 KW that Wrightspeed used before developing the Fulcrum; the Capstone 65 KW generator had a power-to-weight ratio of 478 W per kilogram -- see http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/05/wrightspeed.html .


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CONTINUED IN NEXT POST
.
 
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biotect

Designer
.
CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST

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Turns out that although Wrightspeed began as a company focused on providing drivetrain conversions for medium-sized garbage trucks, it has since developed a broader interest in providing drivetrains for larger trucks -- see https://www.wrightspeed.com/products/the-route-hd/ and http://www.truckinginfo.com/article/story/2015/06/tantalizing-turbine-electric.aspx :



COndor1.jpg 6a00d8341c4fbe53ef01bb08285075970d-800wi.jpg
Untitled-1.jpg



silverado and safas: I really need to thank both of you at this point. When I first researched microturbines in automotive applications over a year ago, the "fit" still didn't seem quite there. Not even the solution being offered by Wrightspeed. Whereas since then it has become clear that Wrightspeed has "sticking power", and seems very determined to do all the work necessary to create a truly successful hybrid drivetrain that incorporates a microturbine range-extender. If you both hadn't shown such enthusiasm for turbines and/or Wrightspeed in particular, I probably would not have paid the company much attention for at least another year.

In articles about Wrightspeed, or interviews with Ian Wright, there seems to be a confidence and an energy that I didn't detect before, as well as a frank admission that that the technology needed further development to prove commercially viable. For instance, in one of the articles Ian Wright is quite clear that without exhaust energy recovery, the efficiency of a microturbine is dismal in comparison to a diesel piston engine. So too, Wrightspeed now seems to have invested heavily in regenerative braking technology, such that its drivetrain hardly uses fiction braking at all. And Wrightspeed has developed its own proprietary "Geared Traction Drive" with "clutch-less shifting", although if memory serves this was already in place a year ago -- see https://www.wrightspeed.com/technology :






Perhaps most significantly, the Fulcrum is "fuel agnostic", and can run on various fuels such as diesel, compressed natural gas (CNG), liquefied natural gas (LNG), biodiesel, landfill gases, propane, kerosene, heating oil, and others -- see http://www.automotiveworld.com/analysis/fulcrum-give-cv-electrification-leverage-requires/ and http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/05/wrightspeed.html .

Capstone microturbines claim the same, but it doesn't seem as if Capstone microturbines are multi-fuel switchable "on the fly", so to speak. Rather, it seems that Capstone microturbines are sold in various distinct fuel variants: a diesel 65 KW, an LNG 65 KW, a bio-diesel 65 KW, etc. Whereas what's wanted is a microturbine equivalent of the engine in an M-1 Abrams tank, a microturbine that can drink diesel one day, kerosene the next, and Jet fuel the day after that. It's still not clear whether the Wrightspeed Fulcrum is multi-fuel in this latter sense of being "on the fly" fuel-flexible. But if it is, that would be something huge, and that alone would make it very much the diesel generator of choice for a globally capable motorhome.

Here it's also worth noting that the Steyr engine used by the Jenoptik generator also claims multi-fuel capability. But once again, it's not clear precisely what this means.

If we then do the calculation, turns out that 4.5 Wrightspeed microturbine generators producing 360 KW would weigh 1125 lbs, or 510 kg, roughly half the weight of three Jenoptiks. However, whether 4 Wrightspeed microturbine generators would actually prove necessary, is another question. In its image of a heavy-duty tandem truck above, Wrightspeed still posits just one generator, although it doesn't specify how large the generator might be. It even posits an "Open Generator Architecture", so the Wrightspeed drivetrain could theoretically be with a pair of Jenoptiks.

Unfortunately, although I managed to find all kinds of relevant information about Wrightspeed's Fulcrum microturbine, I could not find a figure for fuel consumption expressed in terms of grams per Kwh. If anyone comes across this figure, please post!!

It also has to be granted that a garbage delivery truck is still not a heavy duty long-haul truck designed to cope with hour-long descending inclines. Wrightspeed claims that it uses very powerful regenerative braking, "up to 1000 HP", minimizing the need for friction braking. But one suspects that some kind of magnetic-induction retarder would still prove necessary for a full-size, long-haul truck.



**************************************************


5. Some Questions


**************************************************



1. safas, amongst those engines that you researched for your spreadsheet, which ones had fuel consumption better than 205 g per Kwh?

Needless to say, it's much easier for an engine to consume less fuel in absolute terms if it produces less HP. So ignore "fuel efficiency" for a moment, and focus instead on absolute fuel consumption. I stated the 205 g per Kwh as a benchmark, because that's how much each Jenoptik generator will use. It seems quite possible that two Jenoptiks will be enough, and might prove a "perfect fit" for the TerraLiner. More than 240 KW of generator power may not be necessary, and smaller would be insufficient. And better to have two Jenoptiks producing 240 KW, than just one more "efficient" larger generator producing 240 KW on its own.

In terms of your spreadsheet, a 135 KW engine (roughly 185 HP) would not be very large, so the absolute level of fuel consumption in a comparable HP helicopter turbine should be about as low as it's possible for such a turboshaft engine to get. Again, the important figure here is not turbine efficiency, but rather, the absolute level of fuel consumption. It doesn't matter if a 1000 HP helicopter turbine is very "efficient" relative to the power that it produces. If it's still a gas-guzzler, it won't be of any use. What is wanted instead is a turboshaft that produces somewhere between 185 to 300 HP, and whose absolute level of fuel consumption is quite low. 300 HP would be the upper limit, because if we use the Jenoptik generator as an analogy, a 300 HP or 225 KW turbine should be able to drive a generator that produces 200 KW of electricity. More electrical output from just one generator is simply not needed, and two combined do not need to produce more than 420 KW, because that's the limit of the electric motors.

I am then really curious to know how much worse the fuel consumption of a small, light helicopter turbine would be (180 to 200 HP), in comparison to the Steyr 6-cylinder, 3.2 liter, "Type M160015-0" engine -- again, see http://powertransmissionguide.net/c/c.aspx/STE001/productspecs , http://www.steyr-motors.com , http://www.steyr-motors.com/automotive/ , http://www.steyr-motors.com/automotive/engines/diesel-engine-6-cylinder-3200-cm3-m16/ , and. http://www.steyr-motors.com/automotive/applications-gallery/ .


2. Once more, if anyone comes across a figure for the fuel consumption of the Wrightspeed Fulcrum microturbine generator, please post!


3. If anyone comes across a piston-driven diesel generator that's relatively lightweight, and yet produces 180 KW of electrical power (i.e. half of 360 KW), please post! Here the best place to look might be APUs (auxiliary power units) created specifically for the most recent generation of 18 m, super-long, articulated electric trolley buses. The Jenoptik has been around for a while, and it's possible that it has now been superseded.


4. We still need to research turbine-driven aircraft APUs. Presumably these will be generators where the size of the turbine has been optimized to fit the power output of the generator, with a view to minimizing fuel consumption. The ideal aircraft APU would put out 180 KW of electricity, using a very fuel-efficient turbine that produces only a bit more power than that, say 200 KW, or 270 HP. Again, yes, I know that the larger turbines are more fuel-efficent relative to the amount of HP they produce. But all that extra HP is useless and not needed. And yes, I would still want two aircraft APUs for redundancy, even if the turbines are "helicopter rated", and even if in theory they should never break down....:)


**************************************************



In closing, safas and silverado, many thanks, you have both advanced the discussion of the TerraLiner drivetrain tremendously!!

All best wishes,



Biotect
 
Last edited:

safas

Observer
If you think that fuel economy is so important, dig into this.
I haven't touched it because so far I'm concentrating on sources that provide both sfc and weight together. It's more efficient this way.
But maybe it isn't so important? Can you store extra fuel in the trailer?
 

biotect

Designer
Hi safas,

Wow, that's pretty intense stuff. Yes, fuel economy will be important, very important, if only because the generators will probably also be used to provide power to top up the batteries when glamping in one spot for 3 months straight. If the generators are gas-guzzlers then the potential amount of time spent glamping without hookups of any kind might be seriously reduced.

I only say "might", because it may still be the case that a supplementary 20 KW generator would be needed, despite the added weight, if said supplementary generator would have a much smaller, far more fuel-economical engine. When glamping the TerraLiner won't need 120 - 180 KW of electrical power, but rather, just 20 KW at most, and perhaps as little as 10 KW per day, at least according to egn. So it's possible that a generator optimized to produce 180 KW when driving, might be fuel-guzzling "overkill" when used to produce power for camper systems while stationary. Turbines especially have a "sweet spot" at high RPM when they are most efficient, but one wouldn't want to run the turbines constantly at such high RPMs when glamping, because again, one will only need at most 20 KW per day for camper systems, not 120 - 180 KW.

On the other hand, perhaps such large generators producing a huge surge in power might constitute a unique asset when glamping, and not a liability. Given that the TerraLiner will have a large lith-ion battery bank, if the batteries were the fast-charging type, and if the battery bank was 100 KW, then perhaps all that might be necessary would be to run the turbines for an hour or two, and the battery bank could be topped up for the next five days? There would also be solar and wind-power, of course. But if fast-recharging, deep-cycle, slow-discharging batteries exist (do they?), then glamping would become a comparatively noise-free experience, even in parts of the world where solar radiation is poor, and average windspeed is low. Instead of running a 20 KW generator almost continuously when there's no solar or wind available, the TerraLiner would run its two very powerful generators in "bursts". They'd top up the battery bank in 60 - 90 minutes, and the TerraLiner could then enjoy generator-free silence for another five days.

Note that most regions along the equator plus or minus 10 degrees latitude fit this description. Although they are hot, there tends to be cloud cover and constant rain, so their DNI (daily normal [solar] irradiation) is poor, and solar doesn't work so well. Average wind-speed is also very low. The climate will be hot, and will feel even hotter because the humidity level will be unbearable. The TerraLiner's AWGs will love the climate, because it will be so hot and humid. But the TerraLiner's owners will probably want to keep the A/C running non-stop. So they'll be consuming 20 KW per day. And the only way they'll be able to do that, with no wind available, and the solar cells performing poorly, is by relying on the generators for power.

Again, electricity is not my strong suit, so I don't know if any of the above made any sense. My understanding of KW is still very hazy. But if the above scenario were possible -- run the generators for an hour or two, to top up the battery bank for the next five days -- then that would be very strongly preferred. It would be a vast improvement over running a 20 KW generator almost continuously, as Newells and other big Class-A motorhomes do when it's hot, and they're using A/C around the clock.

I don't know enough about Lith-Ion batteries to be able to say whether this scenario is possible or not. I've just gotten the general impression that batteries come in different "flavors", e.g. slow-charging versus fast-charging, and that ultra capacitors have different characteristics again -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_battery , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_double-layer_capacitor , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_in_lithium-ion_batteries , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_cycle_battery , http://www.howstuffworks.com/question219.htm , http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/battery.htm , http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/everyday-tech/lithium-ion-battery.htm , http://www.explainthatstuff.com/how-lithium-ion-batteries-work.html , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_truck , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_truck , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_bus , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bus , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_bus , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybus , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleytruck , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle_drivetrain , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_vehicle , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_electric_vehicle , and http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/automobiles/Untangling-the-Hybrid-Taxonomy.html?_r=2&hpw .


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The general point remains that fuel economy is of course highly desirable, and there's nothing to be gained from having a super-powerful, super-lightweight helicopter engine that can pump out 1500 HP, if it quickly sucks a fuel tank dry. And it's especially pointless if 1500 HP is not needed in any case. Gas-guzzling is also weight-inefficient, because fuel has weight. The more fuel-economical an engine, the more weight-efficient as well.

The TerraLiner probably won't be able to achieve the huge fuel savings of a Wrightspeed garbage truck, because even more so than a transit vehicle, a garbage truck is constantly starting/stopping/starting/stopping. Operationally speaking, a garbage truck is the opposite of long-haul. But even still, it would be "nice" if the TerraLiner would prove at least 10 % or 15 % more fuel-economical than an equivalent conventional diesel piston-engined vehicle. This would add to the TerraLiner's "Green credentials".

All best wishes,


Biotect
 
Last edited:

biotect

Designer
Hi all,

Something just occurred to me, and thought I'd share it with everyone, to see what you guys think. Since first learning about Wrightspeed, I've always wondered why the drivetrain uses such huge electric motors, 250 HP each -- see https://www.wrightspeed.com/technology/ and https://www.wrightspeed.com/products/the-route-hd/ . In the "Heavy Duty" HD configuration that Wrightspeed has now sketched, it posits no less than four 250 HP motors, mounted individually on each of the four wheels of the tandem axles:



COndor1.jpg Untitled-1.jpg



The answer just occurred to me. The motors are so big for one simple reason: they also function as generators when braking. They are so huge not mainly to provide forward motion, but rather, to provide braking power when stopping. In a serial-hybrid, the electric motors also become the brakes. The electric motors themselves are designed to function as electromagnetic-induction retarders.

All best wishes,



Biotect
 

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