TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

[biotect]

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CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST

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12. Conclusion


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In short, the Cinderella sounds like the real deal: an incinerating toilet that won't stink up the interior of a motorhome.

As for the outside, I am not sure. In answer to an FAQ in the "Cinderella Motion" PDF about smell outside the motorhome (page 26), Cinderella writes that there should not be any. But if there is, one should switch to or install a "bundled winter chimney" on the roof of the motorhome:

Can it smell outside?

On cold toilets and during special weather conditions you may experience a little burning smell on the outside of the caravan at the start of combustion. If this is perceived as problematic, you can switch to the bundled winter chimney on the roof of the carriage. It is also recommended to clean the ash tray and rinse the catalyst if this should happen.

This is not a Google translation; it is the English as it appears in a multilingual PDF. I tried looking up "bundled winter chimney" a variety of ways, but came up short. If anyone knows what this is, please post! Keeping exterior smell to a minimum will also be important, so it would be good to have a concrete visual image of the kind of chimney that Cinderella is talking about.

The Cinderella's mechanical complexity may give one pause for thought. But I figure that's the price one has to pay for the big plate that closes and seals off the combustion chamber, so that the Cinderella does not smell. The Incinolet may be mechanically much simpler, but nobody in their right mind would ever install the Incinolet in a motorhome.

Presumably the Cinderella "Motion"/”Cabby Loo” designed for use in motorhomes has been further finessed to handle the constant vibration of road travel. It seems to be relatively new; for instance, the Danish review dates to 2013. But presumably by 2020 the design will have been perfected, in part refined via lots of customer feed-back. Cinderella toilets more generally, of the kind used in fixed homes and cottages, have been around for a while. I read somewhere (I can no longer find the reference) that about 3 % of Swedish and Norwegian households now have them. There are about 6,526,000 households in the two countries combined, so 3 % of that would be 195,773, or almost 200,000 Cinderella toilets installed -- see http://www.scb.se/en_/Finding-stati...ktuell-Pong/25795/Behallare-for-Press/367855/ , https://www.ssb.no/en/befolkning/statistikker/familie/aar/2014-12-12 , and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_households . However, elsewhere I've read that the figure is more like 30,000 - 40,000 Cinderellas installed. Either way, Cinderella's patented design dates back to 1997, and only the "Motion" or "Cabby Loo" version designed specifically for use in a motorhome is a bit new.

Needless to say, all RV toilets involve some degree of hassle and worry. Vacuum toilets that provide a "flush and forget" experience and empty into a blackwater tank seem great at first, until one needs to empty the blackwater tank, and
clean and maintain it. The hassle and questionable aesthetics of composting toilets are self-evident. And Earthroamer's small cassettes must be emptied every 2 - 3 days (one cassette), or every 4 - 6 days (two cassettes). Which means they are not exactly hassle-free either.

The Cinderellla does need occasional maintenance, which means that about once a year, or every 1000 incinerations (two packs of bags), the catalyst and ventilation pipes should be cleaned:






A simpler and less hassle-free toilet-cleaning procedure than rinsing the Cinderella's catalyst could not be imagined. The second video shows other procedures to be performed once-every-1000 incinerations, for instance, cleaning the ash-bowl gently with water, and cleaning the ventilation pipes. In all of these procedures there is no need to wear gloves, because all the pathogens are dead, and one touches only accumulated lifeless ash.

The ash-tray needs to emptied once every 70 visits:






It is "normal" and perfectly healthy to poop three times a day, and so too it's within the range of "normality" to poop once every three days. The possible healthy variation here is wide -- see http://www.umass.edu/mycenter/documents/bb/poop.pdf and http://health.usnews.com/health-new...often-should-i-poop-and-other-toilet-topics/3 . But let's work with one poop per person per day, which means that if two people use the TerraLiner, then the Cinderella's ash-tray would only have to be emptied about once every 35 days. Or a bit more than once a month, which is terrific from the point of view of extended boondocking. And when emptying the Cinderella's ash-tray, again one handles only pathogen-free ash, ash that can be dumped just about anywhere, without harmful environmental consequences. So there will be no need to pack up the TerraLiner and de-camp just to find somewhere to dispose of accumulated sewage in the blackwater tank. 6 months staying put in just one spot becomes a real possibility, unconstrained by the production of human waste.

Other incinerating options would certainly be worth investigating, for instance, EcoJohn with its “auger”. But somehow I doubt that any other incinerating toilets have been designed with as much attention to detail and engineering as the Cinderella. And as near as I can tell, the Cinderella is the only incinerating toilet that is now being actively sold in the motorhome market. Sure, some Incinolets have been installed in motorhomes, but their owners soon regretted having done so, because the Incinolet smells like the Apocalypse during its burn cycle.....:sombrero:

All best wishes,




Biotect

 

[biotect]

may need this

 

[biotect]

Possibly this too

 

[biotect]

That incinerating toilet looks promising except for the need to use those paper bags every time one goes,,not very eco imho,
,also how would one use it if run out of those,,maybe someday someone designs perfect toilet

Meanwhile here are couple interesting designs that seem very practical

http://www.natureshead.net/?gclid=COfSvOvgu8kCFQoqHwodvWgFGg

http://www.gonewiththewynns.com/composting-toilet

http://airheadtoilet.com/#

http://www.clivusmultrum.com

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composting_toilet

Hi Silverado,

As I wrote much earlier in the thread (way back on page 45), I don't think composting toilets "work" psychologically for most people. egn's wife rejected the idea, for instance, which is why they have a vacu-flush toilet in Blue Thunder. We are habituated to flush and forget, and here I am just quoting what I wrote earlier:

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2. Our deep-seated need to Flush-and-Forget


The central design issue that alternative toilets have to confront, is that we've been habituated to a "flush and forget" bathroom experience. No lingering long-term smells, and the poop just seems to vanish. As such, composting toilets face a major psychological hurdle, because most people can't get their minds around the fact that they are basically sitting on top of a box of poop. The design of composting toilets has then tended to focus on minimizing "yucky poop awareness":

The fundamental aim of composting toilet designers is to deal with our inhibitions about poop. We have grown up with a flush-and-forget system where we don't see the stuff, we don't have to deal with it, we send the problem somewhere else. Most of the attention is going to making the composting toilet experience as close to this as possible, sometimes by really elaborate means.

See http://www.treehugger.com/bathroom-design/more-hot-poop-composting-toilets.html , for a very thorough survey of various models of composting toilets, none of them all that satisfactory.

This need to "flush and forget" might be modern, and merely a symptom of our over-dependence on technology.

I am inclined to think, however, that it is more deep-seated. As hunter gatherers we did not poop regularly in same place. To the contrary, we pooped far and wide, and the "environment" then took care of our decomposing our waste products. As hunter-gatherers our population density was thin enough for this to be possible. Further, I suspect that because other people's poop contains so many potentially threatening bacteria and parasites, we probably have a built-in, instinctual need to poop where no man (or woman) has pooped before. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why other people's poop tends to smell so bad, and our own not so much?

So contrary to advocates of compositing toilets, personally I don't think that there is anything psychologically "natural" about sitting on top of a box of other people's poop. "Flush and forget" may be modern, but the psychological need that it satisfies probably is not.

I haven't changed my mind since I wrote that. Sure, I know all about various models of composting toilet. But I wouldn't specify them for the TerraLiner. I figure that the closest one can get to flush & forget in a motorhome, and yet eliminate all the hassle and environmental problems of a blackwater tank, is incineration. And it would be "Green" if the power to incinerate came from solar arrays. As for the bags or "liners", these don't strike me as a big hassle -- see http://www.pikkuvihrea.fi/en/muut-tarvikkeet/236-cinderella-paperipussit.html .

Furthermore, as I wrote back on page 45, I don't think that most people's aversion to composting toilets is mere modern brainwashing, just a modern cultural construct, a socially fabricated affectation that we can get rid of easily. I think it goes much deeper than that. I think we are hard-wired to not want to poop where others have pooped before. In a composting toilet it's just too evident that others have contributed to a pile that's hard to hide. Whereas via incineration prior use of the toilet by others is disguised, just as it is in flush & forget. I think we need the disguise, and that's why flush & forget is so widespread and popular. It satisfies a deep-seated psychological need; it's not just about hygiene.

Try reading the Treehugger article, again at http://www.treehugger.com/bathroom-design/more-hot-poop-composting-toilets.html . It provides deep analysis of this central design issue. Toilets are not just engineered waste-disposal machines, and engineering or "environmental" issues are not the only things that need to be considered. As a designer one also has to take into account how people are, how they are hard-wired. Not just how we would like them to be.

Finally, for an absolutely comprehensive, really quite terrific survey of literally every experimental, alternative, or "eco" toilet design that has been proposed in recent years, see the PDF at http://wedc.lboro.ac.uk/resources/books/Contemporary_Toilet_Designs.pdf. It must have been an expensive document to produce, because it contains at least 50 custom-created explanatory drawings of the toilets. These are not just lifted from manufacturer product literature, but were custom-commissioned for this survey. Perhaps paid for by the Bill & Melinda Gates foundation? Again, merely as a piece of graphic design the document looks expensive because it's so beautiful, the layout is first-rate, and the explanatory drawings cohere. But perhaps the expense was worth it, because the drawings are very easy to understand.

All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[Libransser]

On the subject of "wood working/welding" etc. (Nothing fancy, repairs, small projects). It more or less comes down to two things. Having the ability to fix or modify things on the road to keep you rolling and being self sufficient (waiting on other people only gets you so far). The other is the bargaining chip you have. Sure it is nice to shell out coin to get what you want but that isn't always a possibility. For example, you have a truck with a mobile shop. (Basic tools, hand tools, welder, grinder, etc.). You are in a far away land somewhere you'd like to set up camp. The locals are nice, food is good and so is the weather. Kind of a 3rd world place with broken English and limited resources. How does a "gringo" fit in with the locals? Fix something of theirs for free. Whether it be an old hay wagon with some busted welds making it inop. Or a set of stairs that needs some screws and a new piece of wood. Fix a few things and before you know it you have some friends. Don't expect anything, just be glad to provide a service. Before you know it the locals will open up to you, then the "good ole boy" network of local farmers starts liking you because you aren't a takee and can provide something besides a wad of cash that would go towards a repair anyways. Simple concept but it goes a long way.

I can vouch for this. I grew up watching my father and grandfather, both skilled handymen, winning local people over simply by helping them fix stuff. It could be anything, from plumbing, electrical, home appliances, car mechanics, etc. Even small stuff. If something not working caught their eye, they would offer to try to fix it, without asking for something in return. The more crucial the fix, the more welcoming and friendly the people became. Even if they didn't succeed, making an honest effort was enough to warm the people. Hilarity ensued when they managed to fix something they had no idea how to fix.

That is really useful feedback. Please keep it coming: all of your thoughts about how to bridge cultures and class divides will be appreciated. And if anyone else wants to chime in on this new topic, please do. Let's call it "Designing for Bridges", and it will be added it as a sub-thread to Libransser's list. Equipping a TerraLiner with extensive power tools and self-repair capability won't be everyone's cup of tea. However, it would certainly be mine, because I know how to weld, how to lay up fiberglass, etc. The reason your suggestion is so interesting, is because this is something that would need to be designed for. It could not be just an afterthought.

Because I love tools, when I first saw this vehicle (Ford DeWalt truck) years ago I downloaded just about every image I could find. It's the ultimate "tool guy" truck. The pull-out table saw and built-in bench-vise are priceless:

"Designing for Bridges" isn't descriptive enough. In our context it may be taken literally. I think an additional adjective would be necessary.

By the way, how is the request for the sub-forum going?

I find the concept of bringing your workshop with you very appealing. When I first started to consider a mobile home I took for granted it would be something I would have to sacrifice. Your proposal of having a Garage Trailer has slowly grown on me, and after seeing the impressive Schuler trailers I'm convinced that carrying a decent workshop is possible. The biggest challenge will probably be the packaging.

As you said, having extensive tools may not be of use or interest to some people. So, should they carry them around even if they don't use it? While the TerraLiner camper itself will remain the same for all the units, are all the Garage Trailers units required to be the same too? It carries less systems than the camper, so it may be easier to implement some kind of modularity to adapt to different requirements.

I had already assumed that the TOAD garage trailer would be part metal/wood shop and tool storage area, so definitely on the same page as you. This is perhaps getting a bit ahead of things, a level of detail that only needs considering later, i.e. what tools, and how much space they would occupy, and where. But very much liked your sociological insight, that offering one's skills for free will endear one to locals. Even if they themselves have the skills, often in poorer countries they might be making do with inferior, aging tools. So offering one's metal/wood shop as a free service is probably the thing that might interest locals the most.

I would be careful with that. Unless you have previously seen how they work, I'd be wary of lending my tools and my workshop. Not everyone is competent nor careful enough, and they could end up misusing or abusing the tools in ways you didn't even expected, thus damaging the tools, the trailer, or even hurting themselves in an accident.

 

[biotect]

Hi Libransser,

Oh, don't worry, at a personal level I am an old hand at sizing up potential tool-users and adjusting accordingly.

When I taught Art for a while at the secondary school level, certain power tools were simply off-limits.... for most students. But I had a brilliant, super-smart, and super-creative student who wanted to go nuts with the Art Room's power tools. He had grown up using such tools with his father. I told him that I just could not cross certain lines, unless I spoke with the headmaster, the headmaster spoke with the school's lawyers, his parents spoke with the school's lawyers and the headmaster, and together with the lawyers we'd create a contract written in blood, a contract that would completely exonerate the school and myself of any possible harmful consequences. He had 200 % support from his parents, and they made it happen, which was darn impressive. Of course as long as the legalities could be sorted out and the headmaster was amenable, this student also had my full support. At the time I was the head of the Department of Fine Arts (which included the Performing Arts), so there were no other layers of management between me and the headmaster (the Academic Dean always gave me his full support). So once we had the contract signed, he began.

For the last 1 1/2 years of secondary school he had the free run of some potentially dangerous and/or potentially lethal tools and materials, e.g. a circular saw, a jig saw, blow torches, room-temperature pour-able transparent plexiglass that hardens overnight, and that he'd then saw and blowtorch....:sombrero: And he created the best Art-work of any student I have ever taught.

This all took place within the frame-work of a two-year course called "International Baccalaureate Art & Design", or "IB Art" for short. The IB is an internationally recognized secondary-school degree that has now become the "gold standard" curriculum at most Anglophonic international schools worldwide -- see http://www.ibo.org and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Baccalaureate . Generally speaking these schools are "international" only in the sense that the kids might come from 70 different countries, as was the case where I taught. But the teachers are almost all Anglophones from the United States, Canada, Australia, and Britain. The international capitalist class sends their kids to such schools not because they love the English language or the Anglosphere, but rather, because they are terrified that their kids will not have full access to global intellectual capital, which means being able to speak, read, and write English fluently. It's a global race, and the linguistic medium of the race is English. But most of the parents of the kids I taught were profoundly anti-American; the kids much less so. Even still, most of the kids could not have cared less about English poetry or American novels. After all, in most cases their home cultures were thousands of years older and deeper. They just wanted to be able to read The Economist -- see http://www.economist.com .

Now one of the more interesting things about the IB is that it's taught at over 2000 such "international" (i.e. overseas Anglophonic) schools worldwide, and it has a British-style evaluation system, with external examinations. So I didn't do the grading; an external examiner did (let's overlook the further complication that there was also an internally graded component, but a component nonetheless externally adjusted by moderators and a "mod factor"). As such the "competition" was never the other students in one's class, but rather, all students taking a given course -- e.g. IB Art -- worldwide. The scale runs 1 to 7, and of course this student got a 7 out of 7 in IB Art. But there was also a numeric grade. He got 100 out of 100, which had never happened before in the history of IB Art.

The IB program has been running for about 50 years. It started in the 1960's in Geneva at the ISG, the school where kids whose parents work at the United Nations all study; and in Wales, at the United World College of the Atlantic. So this student's achievement in IB Art was truly astonishing. The IB Diploma overall is 42 possible points (6 subjects x 7 = 42), but because there are "bonus points" for TOK (a Philosophy course that I also taught), along with a research paper called the Extended Essay, it's possible to get 45 points out of 42. He got 44 points out of 42, and went on to study Philosophy at Oxford, and is now in New York studying Art at the Cooper Union.

Let's just say that I saw a bit of myself in him....

In any case, the responsible and wise control of tools is second nature to me.

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[biotect]

Hi Libransser,

Good idea about trailer modularity. After all, the trailer will be filled with "toys", and not everyone likes to play with the same toys. As for the sub-forum project, I'll try to get on with it this coming week. I've had a really good run of inspiration on the thread over the last few weeks, whereas if ExPo says "yes" to the sub-forum idea, suddenly I'll have a big pile of less fun organizational work to do. I needed to get in a fairly heavy creative "fix" or "dose", before resigning myself to what will probably be at least a few months of drudgery; albeit very necessary drudgery.

Question: I tried looking it up, but have come up short. Do you have any idea what a "bundled winter chimney" could possibly mean in a motorhome context? Cinderella wrote that if there's a bit of smell from its incinerating toilet outside the motorhome, then the solution might be a "bundled winter chimney". A cryptic combination of words that I have not been able to crack.

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[Libransser]

Question: I tried looking it up, but have come up short. Do you have any idea what a "bundled winter chimney" could possibly mean in a motorhome context? Cinderella wrote that if there's a bit of smell from its incinerating toilet outside the motorhome, then the solution might be a "bundled winter chimney". A cryptic combination of words that I have not been able to crack.

Hey Biotect,

I don't know what it means. I tried to look it up but I came up short too.

Can it smell outside?

On cold toilets and during special weather conditions you may experience a little burning smell on the outside of the caravan at the start of combustion. If this is perceived as problematic, you can switch to the bundled winter chimney on the roof of the carriage. It is also recommended to clean the ash tray and rinse the catalyst if this should happen.

"Special weather conditions" is vague, but following the mention of "cold toilets" and "winter chimney" I tried to look for problems associated with electric resistors, furnaces & heaters in cold weather, but none of the problems associated with burnt smell at startup seem related.

Then I tried to look for known problems of traditional chimneys and cold weather with smell problems, but no luck there either.

"Winter chimney" doesn't appear to be a thing either. It's not like you need specialized protection in winter that isn't required during other seasons. If you need protection from snow, for example, then you also need protection against rain, so a chimney cap that allows gases to exit but prevent water and other debris from entering is enough. And looking at what comes included with the Cinderella for installation one of those is included, but it doesn't seem to include another chimney cap or anything else optional.

There are a few extractor accessories offered separately that go in top of the chimney vent, but I think they are not for the incinerator toilets.

Cold air probably enters the pipe, but how could that have some effect? There's an electric fan inside helping to move the gases, so why would cold air cause a burning smell at startup?

Cold temperatures may affect negatively the reaction with the catalyst. I think it was previously mentioned for another incinerator toilet that bad smells in the outside are mitigated by adding an optional catalyst. So maybe some smell escapes while the toilet warms up. But then, why would they suggest a solution having to do with the roof?

So, bottom line, I don't know

When in doubt, go to the source.

It may not even be that big of an issue if it only happens on very cold weather, when no one is going to be outside next to the motorhome, and only at the beginning of the incineration while it warms up.

Finally, something I noted is that the word "carriage" seems a bit weird. It's not something you usually use to describe a motorhome, so it made me think that even if the PDF is in english, it may have been translated from other language and we are suffering a "lost-in-translation/bad-translation" situation here.

 

[biotect]

Hi Libransser,

Maybe the solution is to back-tranlsate "bundled winter chimney" into Norwegian or Swedish, and then do an image-search...? I'll try it, and will certainly let you know if I succeed....

This may seem like a detail, but again, the big Achilles heel of incinerator toilets is smell. Incinerating toilets must solve the smell problem, or they will never catch on. I think incinerating toilets are potentially a very "green" solution, at least in so far as what it means to be "green" about our poop is not obvious:






People who strongly favor one technology over another tend to think it's just obvious what it means to be "green". Unfortunately, it's not.



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1. The Ethical Complexity of Technology, and the Ultimate, non-Proximate Cause of the Environmental Crisis


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The case in point is nuclear reactors. For the longest time almost everyone who was "green" was against nuclear power. But then global warming came along, and environmentalists suddenly realized that a nuclear reactor might be more "green" than power stations that use fossil fuels, coal especially, because nuclear reactors will not produce greenhouse gases. The problem perhaps was not nuclear reactors per se, but rather, how they were implemented in the United States. Basically, in the United States almost every nuclear reactor was a "bespoke", custom design. Whereas in France they decided to pursue just one technology at first (gas cooled reactors), and then a second (pressurized water reactors), settling on just one design and trying to perfect that in terms of cost, reliability, safety, etc. -- see http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/country-profiles/countries-a-f/france/ , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressurized_water_reactor , and http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Nuclear-Fuel-Cycle/Power-Reactors/Advanced-Nuclear-Power-Reactors/ . So France now produces 75 % of its electricity via nuclear power, and France's nuclear reactors are internationally recognized as much safer and more reliable than the competition.

The only thing that's ethically certain in the world of "green" morality and politics, is that humans everywhere at all levels of cultural development seem to have an innate talent for messing up the ecosystem. Some like to fantasize that when we were agriculturalists, we were more "green" than we are today, with industrial civilization. But even the simplest forms of agriculture have been massively environmentally disruptive. So others go further back, and try to romanticize hunter-gatherers. The problem is that whenever hunter-gatherers spread to a new continent, e.g. Australia about 50,000 years ago, or North and South America about 11,000 years ago, within less than 1000 years most the mega-fana died off -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternary_extinction_event . Mega-fauna that had not co-evolved with homo sapiens had no fear of us. So we could just walk up to a big North American herbivore and slit its throat.

The "overkill" hypothesis is controversial, and other megafauna die-off hypotheses exist -- see http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/01/what-killed-great-beasts-north-america , http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/end-big-beasts.html , http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/nattrans/ntecoindian/ecolinkspleisto.htm , http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/nattrans/ntecoindian/essays/pleistocene.htm , http://www.eoearth.org/view/article/155123/ , https://www.newscientist.com/articl...on-dna-evidence-pins-blame-on-climate-change/ , and http://archaeology.about.com/od/mterms/g/megaextinct.htm :






But personally I am now very strongly disinclined to romanticize any level of human cultural development. Too many intellectuals have a soft-spot for hunter-gatherers, and here I include myself, because when younger I also went through a Rousseauvian-romantic phase. The most recent statistical-probabilistic studies suggest that the "overkill" hypothesis is the likeliest explanation -- see http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/06/...blame-for-the-disappearance-of-large-mammals/ . Given that the direct empirical evidence is equivocal, I am happy to go mathematical and lend credence to a a more statistical-probabilistic argument. It does seem that even hunter-gatherers have not been able to develop truly long-term, stable relationships with their environments.

The deepest and most general question here from a philosophical point of view, is whether the emergence of advanced "Mind" (self-aware, tool-using, language-using, socially co-operative intelligence) is necessarily an ecologically disruptive event.

Most really intelligent creatures (but granted, not all) are carnivores that are social predators, in the sense that they hunt co-operatively. So the answer to this question is probably "yes". Especially if the social predator becomes de-instincted the way that we have. Through culture instead of biology humans have been able to innovate new forms of predation faster than other elements in the ecology (plants, animals) could develop counter-measures via the comparatively slow process of genetic change. This temporal asymmetry will probably occur on any planet with an ecosystem that evolves highly intelligent, culture-creating, predatory animals like us.

Personally, I don't view the emergence of advanced Mind on earth as a random event. I follow Julian Huxley, who followed Teilhard de Chardin in thinking that although how advanced Mind gets instantiated in a given planet's ecosystem cannot be predicted, evolution is teleological overall, and tends towards ever greater levels of complexity, such that eventually it produces fully self-aware Mind -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Huxley and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin . If not talking, tool-using primates, then perhaps instead bipedal dinosaurs would now be self-aware Mind walking the earth.

The general argument here is that the universe has a natural tendency to produce ever more sophisticated forms of Mind. Indeed, the argument is that the production of self-aware, intelligent Mind or very complex "consciousness" is the whole point to the universe in the first place. That's what it's for. People who think this way tend to be organicists, so they won't say that the universe is an advanced-Mind-producing machine. Rather, they will say that the universe is an advanced-Mind-producing organism. They also won't be matter/consciousness dualists. Rather, following Chardin, they will say that even rocks have a very limited, low-grade form of consciousness. They will say that all matter is pregnant with Mind, and that Mind/matter are two aspects of one and the same basic substance or reality. This form of "organicist monism" is also my own considered philosophical position.

All of this is a philosophical way of saying that the ecological crisis goes very deep, and that it is somehow rooted in who we are as creatures. Ergo, fantasizing that some previous cultural condition is the "obvious" solution -- e.g. an agricultural level of civilization, when some of us used our poop as compost -- is just superficial and naive.



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2. The Challenge Humans Face


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The challenge viewed very broadly is making advanced Mind compatible with ecosystem stability and health. And the solution here is not less Mind, but more: more intelligence, not less. To argue that the solution is less intelligence and "going back to the land" or "back to pre-agricultural hunter gathering", is to say that the emergence of advanced Mind was a fundamental mistake. It is to say that humans should never have happened in the first place, and that we should hate ourselves for having emerged. Whereas to embrace "more Mind", is to acknowledge that we really did not have much choice in the matter: evolution produced us, so there must be something good about us.

If one sees evolution as God-initiated (in the sense that the whole cosmos is God-intiated), and if one were a traditional Catholic theist, then one would say that God is good, so creation is fundamentally good too. Human beings are part of creation, ergo the emergence of human beings must be a good thing as well. Note that Catholicism today has completely embraced evolutionary theory, even though Cathoiicism rejects scientistic-reductionist metaphysical materialism. One can be enthusiastic about evolution, and yet still reject scientistic materialism. Although I am not a Catholic, I am mentioning Catholicism because it has generated the most philosophically sophisticated account of the relationship between consciousness and matter, spirit and evolution, advanced Mind and ecosystem, available thus far. All other religions are still playing "catch up", including Buddhism, because they have not been thinking through the relationship of spirituality to modernity for as long as Catholicism has.

So if we take Teilhard de Chardin seriously, then every planet that has an ecosystem will eventually face the challenge of the ecologically disruptive emergence of advanced Mind. On other planets the apex predators which emerge as fully self-aware, talking Mind will look very different from us. But the problem will be the same: the emergence of advanced Mind will prove profoundly ecologically destabilizing. The challenge for advanced Mind everywhere is to then become aware of this problem, and use "more Mind" to rectify the situation. Put in layperson's terms, the challenge is for us to use our intelligence to create an ecologically steady-state form of civilization, via scientific understanding of our planet's overall ecosystem, and its more specialized sub-ecosystems.

Within that overall framework of understanding, it's quite possible that incinerating toilets are much more "green" than any of the alternatives, as so eloquently suggested in the video above.


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3. The Yuck-Factor in Composting Toilets


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Now composting toilets sound "safe" and ethically non-problematic, especially when one reads the Wynns' website -- see http://www.gonewiththewynns.com/composting-toilet . But the Wynns are always a bit too breezy, glib, and overly smiley-optimsitic when discussing just about everything. It's kind of their trademark, and why their videos are so popular with like-minded, equally optimistic Americans of the super-smiley type....:sombrero::






More intelligent and thoughtful people need to take the Wynns' advice with a bit of salt. The Wynns are certainly intelligent, but they are "polyannas" -- see http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Pollyanna and http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pollyanna / .

Below is an excellent video by an equally articulate user of a composting toilet. She's just as intelligent as the Wynns, but she's an American of the more dour, pessimistic, and critically self-reflective type. This video strikes a much more credible tone, and gets wonderfully graphic about the composting toilet experience:






The narrator in this video is very honest, raising issues that most videos and websites about composting toilets do not, for instance, the problem of urine smell, urine overflow, and urine staining.



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4. Humus Still Contains Pathogens


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In addition, there is the simple fact that it's still not advisable to use the humus that composting toilets produce in vegetable gardens, because the humus still contains the hardiest pathogens. So if one spreads composting-toilet humus in a garden where one grows edible plants, one will probably get sick. "Safe" here is a relative term. Humus is safer than sewage, but it's still not as safe as genuine dirt. Humus is not "fantastic" plant food as the Wynns claim on their website. Humus is fantastic plant food only for ornamental plants that one does not intend to eat -- see http://www.permies.com/t/25896/composting-toilet/human-waste-cheap-sanitary-disposal . But in the United States, apparently, in most places it is still illegal to use humus from composting toilets even for ornamental gardening. See http://www.compostjunkie.com/compost-toilet.html , and jump to the section at the end about safety.

In composting toilets, decomposition critically depends on just the right balance of temperature, humidity, oxygen, and organic material -- see http://www.letsgogreen.com/how-composting-toilets-work.html . So it is easy for a composting toilet -- or a user managing such a toilet -- to get these things wrong, and for the decomposition to be less than perfect. For instance, too much moisture will result in an anaerobic condition that impedes decomposition. That's why diarrhea is such a potential problem for composting toilets: diarrhea will mess up the composting pile's humidity. So consider: when traveling in a Second or Third-World country, what is the likeliest health problem one might suffer, if one is not sufficiently cautious about what one eats, and how well-cooked it is? Diarrhea.

Earthroamer does not raise this issue on its website, but I bet this is one of the most important reasons why Earthroamer does not install composting toilets in its expedition motorhomes. Earthroamer motorhomes are deliberately designed for long-term off-grid camping, and Earthroamer seems to be a very environmentally aware company. So it may seem odd that Earthroamer has chosen to install cassette toilets instead. But it's only odd if one does not think through the issues sufficiently, and if one believes that it's just "obvious" that composting toilets are the most most environmentally responsible and "practical" solution.


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5. The Time and Heat Required to Kill the Toughest Pathogens


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Now even when decomposition is optimal, to truly kill off all the potentially harmful pathogens one needs time and heat -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composting_toilet#Pathogen_removal . Years, in fact, for bacteria to do their work in a compost pile on a farm or in large garden, where humus from a composting toilet will be mixed with grass, leaves, hay, etc. A properly created compost pile will get very hot, which is a good thing, up to a point. Whether or not small or even very large industrial-sized compost piles in landfills can spontaneously catch fire is an open question, and some insist that this is just an urban legend -- see http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1667914/can-a-compost-pile-really-self-combust , http://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9616 , http://www.helpfulgardener.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39618 , http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1613840/compost-fires , and http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Compost-pile-will-burn-in-Palo-Alto-for-days-3202822.php . But wet/green hay stacked in a barn before it has been allowed to dry out properly in the sun, lying flat in fields, has been known to spontaneously combust and burn down barns -- see http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/09/moist-baled-stacked-hay-catch-fire/ , http://www.horseandman.com/handy-tips/why-hay-spontaneously-combusts-ways-prevent-it/06/21/2012/ , http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/dairy/facts/hayfires.htm , http://ext.wsu.edu/hay-combustion.html , and http://www.firehouse.com/forums/t107643/ . Apparently spontaneous combustion is also possible in tree-mulch piles ("wood chips") -- see http://mikesbackyardnursery.com/2012/06/mulch-sets-house-on-fire/ , http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1251762/spontaneous_combustion_possible_in_tree_mulch_piles/ , http://www.hortmag.com/featured/mulch-on-fire , and http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...623_1_mulch-spontaneous-combustion-wood-chips .

Clearly, a motorhome user can't get rid of their humus on a personally constructed large compost pile. Some RV campgrounds now have compost piles, but otherwise, a motorhome user gets rid of humus from a composting toilet by putting it in a plastic garbage bag. Because humus is safer than sewage, it's not considered a biohazard, and it will continue decomposing inside the bag. But again, it is still not completely safe, and it won't be for at least a year.



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6. The Questionable Morality of Disposing Humus-filled Garbage Bags in Third World Countries


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So when one disposes of plastic bags containing composting-toilet humus in Third-World countries, where do they end up? Obviously, in big rubbish dumps, just like First-World countries. But in Third-World countries who do we find poking about in rubbish dumps? Well, lots of children looking through the garbage:






So instead, one might opt to bury the humus produced by the composting toilet. But here we are back to following all the safety precautions when burying sewage, and all the hassle of digging a large enough pit, and then covering it up -- see post # xxx at xxx.

In sum, my own considered view is that by far the most convenient as well as the most environmentally safe solution for motorhome waste, is incineration. Just as long as the smell problem can be well and truly solved, outside the motorhome as well as inside. I will try back-translating "bundled winter chimney" and then doing an image-search, and let you know what I come up with....

All best wishes,


Biotect


P.S. -- Libransser, hope it's clear that although I addressed these posts specifically to you, their intended audience was much wider. I was not actually arguing with you, but rather, with those who advocate composting toilets for use in motorhomes. You have not expressed an opinion one way or another, so clearly I could not have been arguing with you about this issue.....:ylsmoke:..

Composting toilets will inevitably crop up, and there will be those who think that it's just obvious that composting toilets are the most environmentally friendly and "practical" solution (there's that horrible word again: those who think their own positions are quite obviously right, tend to use the word "practical" a great deal!). I disagree with those who want to advocate using composting toilets in globe-traveling expedition motorhomes specifically; their use elsewhere is another matter. And I wanted to state the reasons for my disagreement at length. Right now seemed like a good time.

But I should finish by stating that if the only choice were between a regular "flush & forget" toilet with a blackwater tank, versus a composting toilet, I would probably choose the latter. When it comes to the "yuck factor", composting toilets are clearly superior to systems that require blackwater tanks. So despite the diarrhea problem, and despite Earthroamer's choice, I would probably choose a composting toilet. At least a composting toilet is no more environmentally unsafe and potentially hazardous to Third-World children, than a blackwater toilet.

It's just that I also know about the Cinderella. So given a choice between a Cinderalla incinerating toilet, versus the alternatives.....:sombrero:
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[Libransser]

I did try the reverse translation and image search to no avail, but to be honest, I didn't exhaust all the translation options offered. Hopefully you can stumble across the right word, or combination of words, if it exists.

But when I said go to the source, I meant asking directly to the manufacturer

No worries, it was clear what your post intend was. Even if it had been directed at me, I wouldn't have minded. I love arguing, with rational arguments, of course. If I were a proponent of composting toilets but you presented me with a better solution I would have appreciated it. Although that's just me, I can see where your concern comes from.

I agree that incineration is the way to go, even for traditional homes. The problem is that although the idea is good, the execution is still lacking.

I'll elaborate more in my response later, cause it's 3 a.m. here and I'm sleepy.

I liked the idea of separating the urine from feces, but mostly because it would allow us to use the urine as an electrolyte to generate electricity.

 

[biotect]

Hi Libransser,

I may have solved it.


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1. "Bundled Winter Chimney"


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Using back-translation, here is what I came up with. “Chimney” in Swedish translates as “Skorsten”, and “roof chimney” as “Takskorsten”. Swedish motorhoming websites will in fact describe roof-mounted exhaust flues made by Truma, Alde, etc. as “chimneys”, i.e. as “skorsten” and “takskortsen” – see http://www.campingtillbehor4u.se/sv/artiklar/skorsten-for-takmontering.html , http://www.caravaningochfritid.se/myshop_start.php?PRGRID=138 , http://www.caravaningochfritid.se/myshop_start.php?PRID=1875 ,http://www.caravaningochfritid.se/myshop_start.php?PRID=1885 , http://www.fredensborgcc.dk/varer/g...mv/5366-Skorsten-til-Truma-AKL5-Trumatic-5000 , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...ar/skorsten-for-takmontering.html&prev=search , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...tid.se/myshop_start.php?PRID=1885&prev=search , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...tid.se/myshop_start.php?PRID=1875&prev=search , and https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...sten-til-Truma-AKL5-Trumatic-5000&prev=search :








I then used these images to find suppliers/descriptions on English-language websites. In the Anglosophere, these will be called “roof flues”, and are generally what Truma and Alde heaters might use, when they vent heater exhaust air via the roof – see http://www.alde.co.uk/itemdetails.php?itemId=5 , http://www.alde.se/usa/heat-technology/how-it-works/get-the-most-out-of-your-heating-system/ , https://www.leisureshopdirect.com/g...arts/alde-compact-3010-water-heater-roof-flue , http://www.aquafax.co.uk/html/product_details.asp?ID=28411 , https://www.reimo.com/en/48270-roof_flue_for_2928/ , http://www.rainbow-conversions.co.u...truma-s3002-gas-fire-heater-flue-kit-25m.html , https://www.leisureshopdirect.com/g...arts/truma-flue-kit-for-s3002-and-s3004-fires , http://www.outdoorbits.com/truma-roof-flue-ak3-p-3655.html , http://www.magnummotorhomes.co.uk/e...-3002-Fire-Replacment-Roof-Flue-Complete.html , and https://www.leisureshopdirect.com/g...truma-fires/truma-s-5004-gas-fire-spare-parts .

These roof-mounted flues are deliberately designed to work well in the winter, albeit the snow has to be cleared around them, or somehow melted away – see http://www.campingferie.dk/h14_vintercamping/s/Alde_skorsten.asp and https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...vintercamping/s/Alde_skorsten.asp&prev=search :








The camper in these images is a Cabby 2006 model, one that includes an Alde 3010 heater. Recall that Cabby is the motorhome manufacturer that makes the “Cabby Loo” incinerating toilet, otherwise known as the “Cinderella Motion”.

So my best guess is that “bundled” means “included”. “Bundled winter chimney” then means “included winter heater flue”, as in “included with the Cabby caravan”.

My guess is that the Cabby Loo (aka the “Cinderella Motion&#8221 as installed in the Cabby caravan might be able to switch between a side vent and a roof vent. The roof vent is the “roof flue” or “roof chimney” used by the Alde heater, one that works for winter camping. It's no more profound than that. There is no special kind of Scandinavian winter chimney that is “bundled”. So in the FAQ for the Cinderella Motion, Cinderella is probably just saying that if there is a problem with outside smell, switch to the roof flue used by the Alde heater, the one that works for winter camping. Hence “bundled winter chimney”.


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2. The TerraLiner will need a roof-mounted winter-capable exhaust flue


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For TerraLiner design, what this means is that if the TerraLiner has an incinerating toilet, then it probably wants the exhaust flue or “chimney” of the toilet to be located as high up as possible, to disperse the smell as far away as possible from people on the ground. I have been planning for a pop-up roof in any case, so perhaps a flue can be constructed that would telescope upwards along with the pop-up? Or perhaps this would be a flexible hose that could straighten out as the pop-up rises? That way the exhaust outlet of the TerraLiner’s incinerating toilet would be even higher than the Cabby caravan’s flue outlet, as pictured above. Thereby mitigating the problem of outside smell even further.

Basically, an incinerating toilet is a heater, or an oven. So obviously the thing needs to have an exhaust flue of some kind, and a vertical chimney is the most desirable in terms of outside smell. Hence the engineers at Cabby caravan must have reasoned, "Why not make the Alde roof-top 'chimney' or exhaust flue do double duty, and serve as the exhaust for the Cabby Loo incinerating toilet as well?"

In the TerraLiner, however, I would prefer that heating be all-electric, and not diesel; and that heating be accomplished via thin-film far-infrared panels. Convection heating, whether by water or air, is actually a very inefficient and “low-tech” way to heat, even though it’s the most commonly used form of heating in residential homes as well as motorhomes. I discussed this earlier in the thread, in posts #1584 to #1594, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1924039#post1924039 to http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1924056#post1924056 to 333 . Far-infrared panels would also not need an exhaust flue.

Note that the South Pole traverse -- whose living cabin needs to withstand very cold Antarctic temperatures even during the summer -- is only equipped with electric heaters of the “baseboard” type. See posts #53 to #58 in the Camper Thermal Engineering thread, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...Arctic-Antarctica-Tibet?p=1655502#post1655502 and following. The highest summer temperature ever recorded at the South Pole was well below freezing, -12.3 °C (9.9 °F) – see https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=summer+temperatures+at+the+south+pol e . And the annual mean temperature during the South Pole summer is -28.2C (-18F) – see http://polardiscovery.whoi.edu/poles/weather.html . The mean daily maximum during December, the warmest month of the year at the South Pole, is -26.5 °C, and the mean daily minimum during the same month is -29.3 °C – see http://www.coolantarctica.com/Antar...t/climate_graph/vostok_south_pole_mcmurdo.php . So even during the summer months when the South Pole traverse takes place, they are dealing with temperatures that are only a bit better than what Siberia experiences during the winter. Put another way, Siberia is even worse in the winter, because temperatures can plunge to as low as -50 °C for extended periods.

Ergo, for a vehicle like the TerraLiner that should be designed to successfully dry-camp for months during the middle of a Siberian winter, the solutions arrived at by the South Pole traverse are worth considering. Notably, the South Pole traverse has an Incinolet, which needs a vent pipe -- see http://www.incinolet.com/incinoletmanualhi.pdf :







Hence, if the TerraLiner uses a Cinderella/Cabby Loo incinerating toilet, it will need an exhaust flue after all, the flue required by the Cinderella’s combustion chamber. It might then be worth having a more conventional diesel-powered boiler/heater after all, as supplement for electric heating; a diesel heater that works through air-convection and/or hydronically. Given that the TerraLiner will need a roof-top flue in any case, a diesel heater would also provide fail-safe heating redundancy.


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3. The Backdraft Problem


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The biggest difference between the Incinolet and the Cinderella, is that once combustion begins, the combustion chamber of the Cinderella completely seals. Whereas in the case of the Incinolet, not only does the combustion chamber not seal, but it's even possible to sit on the toilet and open up its "jaws" while incineration is taking place:






This is a major design defect in the Incinolet. As the first video above suggests (it was already posted in #2441), flush & forget toilet "backsplash" is nothing in comparison to potentially burning one's *ss on an Incinolet.....:sombrero:

Thinking this through further, both the Alde diesel heater (a Swedish product), and the “Cabby Loo” incinerating toilet (also a Swedish product; although Cinderella more generally is Norwegian), have been designed by Scandinavians for use in their motorhomes and cottages during the winter. During the winter inland Sweden and Norway away from the ocean get very cold: Arctic cold. So the Alde heater and the Cinderella toilet must be designed in such a way that keeping a motorhome or a cottage warm is not a problem.

In the case of a motorhome diesel heater there's no danger of outside air getting in, because it is a closed system relative to the outside – see http://www.rainbowconversions.co.uk/equipment/heaters/heaters.htm and http://www.rvworldstore.co.nz/blog/air-heater-selection/ . It draws air from outside via the “combustion air intake pipe", and then vents the same air via the exhaust flue:






If the exhaust flue is vertical up to the roof, then heated exhaust rises one-way up the flue pipe, as per a chimney in a house. Except that in a motorhome diesel heater there is no danger of “backdraft” or cold air getting into the motorhome when the heater is not running. Again, because diesel motorhome heaters are closed systems relative to the outside. They transfer heat either to circulating water, or to circulating air, air that was drawn from inside the motorhome.


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