TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

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2. Farm Camping: A two-way street that's about much more than monetary exchange


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And here are some vides about Brit-Stops, Fattore Amico, Espana Discovery, and Landvergnügen :






Abundant videos about France Passion were already posted in #2395 and #2396 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=2013650#post2013650 . Both the Italian and the German videos above do a good job explaining the "one-night-free" camping on a farm concept. But most on ExPo probably don't have these languages, so I’ll summarize the relevant bits.

First off, it’s a bit surprising that the German couple can camp for a night free on a farm, even though they have only a trailer or “caravan”, one that apparently does not have a shower. This particular German farm also does not have toilets or showers available for use by guests, but it provides electricity for a nominal fee. Seems that different organizations draw the line in different places. France Passion does not permit trailers or "caravans":

Only self-sufficient motor homes (WC, waste, electricity…) can use the host network.
 It would be impossible for the farms and vineyards participating in the network to accommodate the enormous numbers of caravans circulating in Europe, and a number of access routes may also be impassable for caravans.
 You’ll find farms and vineyards that can welcome caravans on our partner’s website www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com .

See https://www.france-passion.com/en/motorhomers/faq . Landvergnügen draws the line below caravans, and only excludes tents. Harvest Host is similar to Landvergnügen, whereas Brit-Stops follows the France Passion model more closely, and also excludes trailers or "caravans" – see https://harvesthosts.com/faq_page.htm#What_kind_of_vehicles_are_allowed and http://www.britstops.com/britstops-faq.php .

The German video mentions an interesting detail that I haven’t seen explicitly stated on any websites: that host farms are limited to a maximum of three camping vehicles per night. I was a bit concerned about this, because on the web I’ve come across a few images that are described as France Passion farms, hosting more than three campers. The whole point to camping on a farm is to get away from the “parking lot” experience that prevails at many RV campgrounds. But if one arrives at a farm and has to wedge oneself in between 6 or 10 other campers, then what’s the point? I wonder if all farm-camping organizations have a 3-camper limit, or whether this is unique to Landvergnügen?

Both the German and the Italian videos underscore something mentioned before. The farmers who sign up for this are not just in it for the money. In the German video the farmer claims that he does not really care whether people buy produce from his shop. Rather, these are farmers who like meeting new people. Farming can be a very lonely lifestyle, and farm camping also serves the social needs of farmers. The exchange in farm camping is not merely monetary, and at a social level it's most definitely not a one-way street. Farm camping does not just serve the need of campers for more "authentic" forms of travel, travel that escapes the hermetically sealed bubble of RV campgrounds. When a farmer meets and gets to know traveling motorhomers, in a way he/she travels too.

Both videos as well as the British video mention that farm-camping provides an opportunity to buy fresh, high-quality produce directly from the farmer. For many campers this is a significant "plus“. The Italian video mentions that such produce is sold at cost with a slight markup, and one doesn’t pay for middlemen, distribution, etc. So farm-camping is a very “green” and environmentally friendly way to vacation. It helps sustain local small producers, and in the case of Brit-Stop, also small-town pubs. All three videos stress that the one-night-free format is very advantageous for motorhomers who want to travel spontaneously, fast, and economically, and who don’t want to be tied down to a single RV park for weeks.



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3. Taking Bienvenue A La Ferme Global, and Designing a TerraLiner to Match


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Now if a TerraLiner were available that had extreme-boondocking capabilities, and if eventually much cheaper versions were manufactured whose cost was comparable to current Class-A mainstream motorhomes, one could imagine an entrepreneur or two creating a global website roughly equivalent to Harvest Host or France Passion. Except that, instead of offering just one-night stays, it would hook up globally-capable, extreme-boondocking motorhomes with farms around the world willing to accommodate them for weeks or even months.

Granted, most farm-camping networks developed so far have followed the one-night-free model. The major exception would be "Bienvenue A La Ferme", the partner-website of France Passion -- see http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/sejours-accueil-de-camping-car , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...om/sejours-accueil-de-camping-car&prev=search , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com...-notre-offre-d-accueil-de-camping-cars/145288 , ,https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...om/sejours-accueil-de-camping-car&prev=search , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...-d-accueil-de-camping-cars/145288&prev=search , and https://translate.google.co.uk/tran....bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/actualites?type_evt[0]%3D464108 .

This does not mean that more farm-camping networks serving the needs of elderly couples could not be developed, elderly couples who want to slow travel. France Passion has now been successfully exported as a fast-camping model to at least 9 other countries. So there's no reason to think that "Bienvenue A La Ferme" could not be exported too, and made global. The web has changed everything, making completely new forms of accommodation and travel possible, for instance, "Couch Surfing" and "Air BnB" -- see https://www.couchsurfing.com and http://www.airbnb.com . Protocols then get put in place to screen participants on both sides, tag and exclude bad apples, etc. So I've been imagining something similar to "Bienvenue A La Ferme" eventually emerging to serve farmers and more elderly, slow-travelling motor-homers worldwide. But what's needed first is a motorhome that does not require traditional RV campground facilities, and that can extreme-boondock mostly in silence.

For instance, a motorhome that does not need a paved pitch. In the Harvest Host images big Class A motorhomes seem to be driving into large fields. I wonder how many times they get stuck, and the farmer has to do recovery? The Wynns also mention that some of the most beautiful Harvest Host farms and vineyards are located well off the beaten path, at the ends of gravel/dirt roads that are not easy for conventional motorhomes to travel -- see http://www.gonewiththewynns.com/harvest-hosts-free-rv-parking-farms-wineries . So expedition-motorhome-type wheels and frames would seem very desirable for farm camping.

Furthermore, there probably exist lots of farms that would like to participate in such networks, but they do not meet even the minimal accessibility or camping requirements; for instance, that they should have a reasonably level and firm surface for camping that can be accessed by conventional motorhomes -- see http://www.britstops.com/becomeahost.php and https://harvesthosts.com/for_prospective_hosts.htm . But if instead the RV world became more populated by expedition motorhomes with better bad-road and off-road capabilities, hillier farms with more challenging properties and/or access could participate too.


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4. Farm Camping and the Problem of Sewage


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It's obvious that many or most farms will not have convenient water hook-ups or the ability to dispose of blackwater. But not just farms. Perhaps it's often difficult to find any place to unload blackwater in many Second and Third-World countries? Harvest Host, France Passion, and similar schemes in other First-World countries are still parasitical on the existing network of First-World RV campgrounds and RV dump stations -- see http://www.rvdumpstations.info and http://roadslesstraveled.us/dirty-little-secrets-rv-dump-station/ . Motorhomes that dry-camp on Harvest Host farms will still need to "wet camp" elsewhere to get rid of their waste. The Brit-Stops FAQ webpage is particularly clear on this basic point -- see http://www.britstops.com/britstops-faq.php#three :

Can we fill up with water and empty our waste tanks at the host sites?

At many sites, maybe not. Currently around half of our hosts will have these one or other of these facilities available, and this is noted in the Brit Stops guide. Very few have facilities for toilet waste disposal. Remember, your hosts are not camp sites but in many cases are working farms, pubs or vineyards, and although they are keen to encourage tourists to visit their local area, they do need to continue working as normal. The fact that motorhomes can fill up or empty waste at camp sites means they can be invited on site by hosts without disturbing their daily work routine.


Why would I want to stay at a site with no facilities?

It's true you may not have a swimming pool, bar, tennis court and evening cabaret, but what you do have is access to a wonderful array of fresh produce, local beers, home-made pies and pastries, fantastic pub food and often stunning scenery, coupled with the opportunity to meet the people who grow or make the food you are eating and drinking and learn a little about their lives. Of course camp sites can be great, and even using Brit Stops you will have to find places to empty waste water and charge up the leisure batteries from time to time.


Do the hosts have toilet facilities if I don't have a toilet on board my campervan?

It's best to assume there will be no overnight toilet facilities. Pubs and those host sites with cafes, tea shops and restaurants will probably have toilets available during opening hours, but not when they are closed. Remember these are not camp sites, which is why the scheme works well for motorhomes, which are fully self-sufficient for at least one night.

So on my own view, farm-camping at a global level will only become genuinely plausible and ethical when motorhomes become very autonomous in terms of sewage and water. I wonder how current expedition motorhomes made by Actionmobil and UniCat dispose of their blackwater in countries that do not have RV campgrounds or convenient RV dump stations? I hope that the answer is not that they contribute to what may already be a very serious open defecation problem, by simply dumping blackwater onto the ground....?.. .. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_defecation . If that's what some of them are doing, then quite literally they are killing children. Even if their own sewage does not contain unusual pathogens, they are providing more human waste in which pathogens will multiply, spread, infect children, and kill children.

Or let me put the point another way by asking you a question, back woods: How do you get rid of your blackwater? Your answer will probably be that you use the existing system of American RV campgrounds and dump stations. But if not, it would be interesting to know the alternatives. Apart from RV campgrounds and dump stations, where else could one responsibly dispose of motorhome sewage, especially in Second or Third-World countries?

It's also possible to not create sewage in the first place, by using either a composting or incinerating toilet. As you probably know, for the TerraLiner I've been planning for incineration via the Cinderella toilet, which seems like the best available current option from multiple viewpoints: smell, aesthetics, compactness, ease of use, convenience, and ethics. See http://www.cinderella-toilet.nl/en/cinderella-motion/ . Cinderella claims that its incinerating toilet is completely odor-free -- see http://www.testfakta.se/node/3244 , http://www.siriuseco.no/en-us/cinderellatoilet.aspx , and http://www.siriuseco.no/en-us/functions.aspx. Unlike the Incinolet, as near as I can tell the Cinderella toilet has a big thick plate that closes and seals the combustion chamber before the burn cycle begins:












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There is a good summary of the range of incinerating toilet options at http://www.bathroominsider.com/incinerating-toilet/ , and this summary states that Cinderella is now the most popular incinerating toilet in Scandinavia. I then don't quite understand why Actionmobil, UniCat, etc. are still installing backwater tanks, if a mobile version of the Cinderella is available -- again, see http://www.cinderella-toilet.nl/en/cinderella-motion/:






Perhaps Cinderella's claim to be odor-free is false?

No doubt I am missing something here. If something better comes along, I would remain open to suggestion.

For instance, Earthroamer claims to have the right idea for medium-sized expedition motorhomes that fast-travel: a European-style cassette toilet. Although low-capacity, this allows one to dispose of waste in an ordinary toilet, which presumably can always be found within reasonable driving distance when passing through populated areas. Earthroamer writes that for two people this means emptying the cassette every two to three days, and it claims this will encourage responsible sewage disposal -- see http://www.earthroamer.com/tab_xpedition_vehicles/xvlt3_systems.html and http://www.earthroamer.com/tab_aboutus/about_environment.html . A second cassette can also be carried in the back, so time between disposals might be four to six days. But I wonder: are world-travellers who like to fast-travel with their expedition motorhomes through rural areas in a spontaneous way, willing to seek out B&Bs, hotels, and restaurants on a regular basis just so they can have access to an ordinary toilet, where they can responsibly empty their cassettes? I tried searching the web using word combinations like "expedition motorhome toilet ethics waste disposal", but only got this here thread, "Leave No Trace" websites, and an interesting article about Oasis Overland and defecating in the open responsibly, i.e. burying one's waste -- see http://www.toilettwinning.org/media/travel-company-toilet-twins-tackle-poverty/ .

Our hunter-gatherer ancestors understood the importance of burying faeces. But I've always wondered whether one can count on contemporary people to do it properly: digging a cathole at least 6 - 8 inches deep, at least 200 feet away from water, trails, campsites, etc.., and changing the protocol for winter or desert conditions -- see http://www.trailspace.com/articles/backcountry-waste-disposal.html , http://www.blueridgeoutdoors.com/magazine/september-2009/do-you-bury-your-poop-in-the-woods/ , and http://www.wikihow.com/Defecate-Outdoors . If one had Earthroamer cassettes, and a toilet was not available because one was camping in a remote area, it seems that digging much deeper holes would be required (18 to 24 inches), again every 2 - 6 days -- see http://www.lets-getaway.com/portable-toilets.htm andhttp://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/portal/a-beginners-guide-to-wild-camping-in-your-motorhome/ . Are most people willing to do this?

Research also suggests that burying waste may actually slow decomposition, and that pathogens can survive in buried waste for up to a year -- see https://lnt.org/learn/principle-3 . Which brings us back to the problem of contributing to the contamination of the local water supply, and killing poverty-stricken children who are most at risk to catch waterborne diseases, and who will die from diarrhea -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_defecation .

As you might have gathered from reading the above, this topic is very important to me, because I know what it's like to have chronic diarrhea for years. I also feel very strongly about the responsibilities that lucky and rich First-World travelers have towards poverty-stricken children in Second and Third-World countries.....:ylsmoke:


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5. Generators, Noise, and Camping Near the Farmer for Security


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As for power, running a generator does seem to be an issue. If you look at the Harvest Host website, it emphasizes that one should first ask a farmer's permission before running a generator, and the permission of any possible neighbors -- see https://harvesthosts.com/faq_page.htm#generator . In many of the Harvest Host images ordinary mainstream motorhomes seem to be camping fairly near to where the farmer himself lives, and/or the barn, probably because that's where a gravel roadway or compacted earth surface is available for such vehicles. Whereas in order to camp in a field distant enough from the farmer and/or other motorhomes such that one's generator is not a nuisance, one's vehicle will probably need a robust expedition motorhome frame and tires. These will allow one's vehicle to negotiate paths leading to fields, paths that otherwise are only driven by farm tractors.

However, I also think a better motorhome needs to be designed that is not only power-autonomous, not needing shore-electricity, but that can also camp mostly in silence. That way if for security reasons camping nearer to where the farmer lives were desirable, the power-production of one's motorhome would not be bothersome.

For better or worse, when one thinks in terms of global travel, security comes up again and again. It's interesting that the Italian "Fattore Amico" ("Farmer Friend") website in particular mentions that farm-camping provides "Full Safety" -- see http://www.fattoreamico.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=27&Itemid=139&l . Italy is actually a very safe country; yes, even the south. Only Naples and Campania are dangerous from a petty-crime point of view. Whereas because the mafia in Sicily was always organized crime, Sicily has comparatively little petty theft. (Side observation: Palermo is a safe city for tourists, and Palermo's historic center is very beautiful, a smorgasbord of Norman and Baroque churches and palazzos, as well as lush gardens filled with huge Banyan tress, Silk Floss trees, tree ferns, and 80 species of palms in the Orto Botanico -- see https://ashleyreedandoliver.wordpre...ermo-giardino-garibaldi-and-the-banyan-trees/ , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceiba_speciosa , https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orto_botanico_di_Palermo , and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orto_botanico_di_Palermo . Serpotta's baroque-era sculptures found in churches and oratories throughout Palermo deserve more global recognition, and he's in the same league as Bernini, even if Serpotta sculpted in plaster stucco instead of marble -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giacomo_Serpotta , https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giacomo_Serpotta , http://www.lasiciliainrete.it/HERITAGE/serpotta.htm , https://tuttolionsitaly.wordpress.c...ste-negli-stucchi-del-serpotta-seconda-parte/ , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItzTz2Q6t68 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDfDE3UMbT8 , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmO2_9keP1A . But I digress....:sombrero: )

For paranoid northern Europeans, farm-camping in southern Italy offers the added bonus of security and protection, and seems a better alternative than trying to free-camp for a night in some random spot.



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6. Farm Camping: A Fast-Growing Movement


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These are just some "shoot from the hip" thoughts in response to your post, and I wrote the above more or less off the top of my head over the last 24 hours, writing + research. Again, many thanks, because your post encouraged thinking about and researching all of this much further, and even more explicitly.....:ylsmoke: ..

To repeat, camping on farmland is the big "logistical bet" in TerraLiner design, and if it were genuinely unrealistic, then the TerraLiner would be dead in the water. When egn suggested that camping on farmland is "an illusion", I knew that I needed to think through this critical aspect of TerraLiner logistics more deeply, and decide whether I thought egn was right or not. But everything that I've researched suggests that camping on farmland is growing massively in popularity, because many motorhomers are getting turned off by the "parking lot" feeling of RV campgrounds. The gap between the promise of the RV brochures and the reality of RV campgrounds is becoming a chasm. Consider: the farm networks in other countries that were inspired by France Passion are all relatively new. Even though France Passion is now 24 years old, established in 1992, it took the rest of the world more than a decade to catch up. Even Fattore Amico was created only in 2004, and networks like Brit-Stops, Harvest Host, and Espana Discovery are all more recent than that -- see http://www.fattoreamico.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20&Itemid=135&lang=en and https://www.france-passion.com/en/france-passion/history . Even Landvergnügen is a very recent development, which surprises me, because so many Germans vacation in France, Germans are passionate about motorhoming, and you would think it would have occurred to at least one of them decades ago to create a network similar to France Passion in Germany -- see https://landvergnuegen.com/sites/default/files/fileuploads/pressespiegel_lv_web.pdf .

Here it's also worth noting that more than 2/3 of the sites registered with Brit-Stops can accommodate motorhomes longer than 30 feet -- see http://www.britstops.com/britstops-faq.php . Indeed, one gets the feeling that precisely because they are farms, space is not a problem. Some of the images in post #2397 of very large Class-A American motorhomes dwarfed by even vaster rural landscapes make this argument beautifully -- see http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=2013653#post2013653 . These are the majestic landscapes that Class-A motorhomes were truly designed for, at least aesthetically speaking; not RV campgrounds. The images in that post really do resemble the the optimistically evocative images in RV promotional brochures:







In closing, it's very interesting that you think soil-compaction isn't a problem. I am always a bit surprised on ExPo when two participants who write in a considered, calm, and credible way (you and egn), and whose prose-style naturally engenders trust, will disagree about something. It then becomes hard to decide who is right, because one can't automatically discount the claim of one side or another, just because their prose-style sounds a bit nuts and not credible. You and egn seem equally credible. I am inclined to agree with you about soil-compaction, and not egn, but obviously I am biased, because I want farm camping to work.:sombrero:

All best wishes,



Biotect


P.S.: Any thoughts re two or three good books on the topic of training German Shepherds to become ideal police dogs, of Sergeant-level caliber? And again, just curious to know what kind of hunting dog you breed and train, and why, as opposed to other types of hunting dogs? The questions stated more fully in post #2398 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=2013836#post2013836 .

 

[biotect]

On the subject of "wood working/welding" etc. (Nothing fancy, repairs, small projects). It more or less comes down to two things. Having the ability to fix or modify things on the road to keep you rolling and being self sufficient (waiting on other people only gets you so far). The other is the bargaining chip you have. Sure it is nice to shell out coin to get what you want but that isn't always a possibility. For example, you have a truck with a mobile shop. (Basic tools, hand tools, welder, grinder, etc.). You are in a far away land somewhere you'd like to set up camp. The locals are nice, food is good and so is the weather. Kind of a 3rd world place with broken English and limited resources. How does a "gringo" fit in with the locals? Fix something of theirs for free. Whether it be an old hay wagon with some busted welds making it inop. Or a set of stairs that needs some screws and a new piece of wood. Fix a few things and before you know it you have some friends. Don't expect anything, just be glad to provide a service. Before you know it the locals will open up to you, then the "good ole boy" network of local farmers starts liking you because you aren't a takee and can provide something besides a wad of cash that would go towards a repair anyways. Simple concept but it goes a long way.

Hi back woods,

That is really useful feedback. Please keep it coming: all of your thoughts about how to bridge cultures and class divides will be appreciated. And if anyone else wants to chime in on this new topic, please do. Let's call it "Designing for Bridges", and it will be added it as a sub-thread to Libransser's list. Equipping a TerraLiner with extensive power tools and self-repair capability won't be everyone's cup of tea. However, it would certainly be mine, because I know how to weld, how to lay up fiberglass, etc. The reason your suggestion is so interesting, is because this is something that would need to be designed for. It could not be just an afterthought.

You must be familiar with the Dewalt/Ford concept tool truck? See http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2011-ford-super-duty-dewalt-contractor-concept-auto-shows , http://www.caranddriver.com/photo-gallery/2011-ford-super-duty-dewalt-contractor-concept , http://www.motortrend.com/news/2011-ford-dewalt-super-duty-f350/ , http://www.trucktrend.com/cool-trucks/1004dp-2011-ford-f350-super-duty/ , and http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...ontractor-concept-could-be-a-transformer.html :






Because I love tools, when I first saw this vehicle years ago I downloaded just about every image I could find. It's the ultimate "tool guy" truck. The pull-out table saw and built-in bench-vise are priceless:










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About half way through University I switched from Economics and the Social Sciences (subjects studied with a view to taking over Dad's business), to Philosophy and Religious Studies, more or less because I had no choice. I'd had a Near Death Experience that changed everything, and suddenly found I could read very abstract Philosophy and it made sense. This also seemed "required reading" in order to come to terms with the experience. But at the same time couldn't shake the urge to design, so on the side not only designed but also built a number of stage sets for theater productions. The last three sets had technical directors (TDs) who wanted me to just paint, or direct the painting crew. On one set in particular, a super-competent TD and his assistants wanted to enjoy the challenge of cutting sheets of semi-transluscent greenhouse plexiglass themselves.... He was a great TD to work with -- we collaborated on two productions -- but he forced me to just watch, as he and his assistants very slowly and very carefully cut enormous circles and made sure the plexiglass would not splinter or shatter, which he claimed was a real possibility. Once things get semi-professional and super-competent, it's interesting how a quasi-union-shop mentality naturally takes hold, and a wise designer will respect set roles and expectations. But until I acquired a reputation for wild, experimental set design and had directors + technical directors knocking at the door, I got to build at least three (or was it four?) sets myself as combined designer/TD, with lots of crew helping of course. Never happier than passing a big sheet of plywood through a table saw.

My question is then this. Do you know of any RV websites that list what an "ideal RV tool complement" might be? Especially for an expedition motorhome? Rob Gray, if at some point you read this, did you discuss the question on the Wothahellizat blog? [Rob occasionally contributes to the thread, and if memory serves, Wothahellizat 1 had quite a complement of tools....] Returning to back woods: if you've already made such a list yourself, would you be willing to post it here? Also, if anyone else reading this knows of such a list, please post links, or the list itself.....

I had already assumed that the TOAD garage trailer would be part metal/wood shop and tool storage area, so definitely on the same page as you. This is perhaps getting a bit ahead of things, a level of detail that only needs considering later, i.e. what tools, and how much space they would occupy, and where. But very much liked your sociological insight, that offering one's skills for free will endear one to locals. Even if they themselves have the skills, often in poorer countries they might be making do with inferior, aging tools. So offering one's metal/wood shop as a free service is probably the thing that might interest locals the most.

Many thanks,



Biotect

 

[back woods]

Black water is a funny matter. I'll keep it simple. Ever see a pump truck out in the middle of a field emptying it contents? Well that's not mud coming out.

 

[biotect]

Hi back woods,

When one drives through Germany, one can smell it on the fields.

But surely the stuff they're spreading has been processed, and has become a Class A biosolid, comparatively free of pathogens? See http://modernfarmer.com/2014/07/stink-human-poop-fertilizer/ , http://modernfarmer.com/2014/07/stink-human-poop-fertilizer/ , http://modernfarmer.com/2014/07/stink-human-poop-fertilizer/ , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewage_sludge , and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosolids . Spreading around a pasteurized Class A biosolid as fertilizer is significantly different from open defecation in India, or dumping one's blackwater tank in the middle of a Third World country. There's also controversy even about Class A biosolids, because some pathogens survive the treatment process, and environmental organizations like the Sierra Club are worried about the health risk these pose, when sewage sludge is used as fertilizer.

So what's your personal take on the RV toilet options, for a vehicle intended for full-timing? If the initial capital investment were not an issue, and you could afford any type of toilet on the market, as well as the cost of the energy required to run it (so incinerating toilets are not handicapped in this respect), what kind of toilet would you opt for, and why? Criteria could be various: aesthetic, olfactory, ethical, convenience, etc. etc. Some are enthusiastic about composting toilets. Whereas others think that it's simply impossible for most people today to get over the idea that when using a composting toilet, they are adding to a pre-existent pile that they can see. People today are too conditioned by "flush and forget" modern toilets, the argument goes, and the psychological adjustment required to use a composting toilet is impossible for many or even most.

I tend to agree with the latter school of thought, in the sense that I think this is an accurate characterization of the psychological dispositions of most people who've grown up in First-World countries. Personally speaking, I could probably handle a composting toilet. But I am not everyone or most people, and as a designer one mostly designs for others. So I would not specify a composting toilet for a vehicle to be used by others.

Considering all factors so far, it then seems like the Cinderella is best. But I would really like to hear your arguments against the Cinderella specifically, and incinerating toilets more generally, if in fact you are against them.....

Also, if you feel moved (so to speak) to delve into the complexities of blackwater, please do!! And I would really like to know: how do expedition vehicles like Actionmobils and UniCats deal with their blackwater tanks in countries where RV campgrounds and RV dump stations are scarce? Is my guess unfortunately correct: that they just evacuate the stuff into the local watershed?

Finally, how genuinely diligent and responsible are most Earthroamer owners when disposing of their cassette-toilet sewage? Here too, if anyone else reading this has some insight or experience, please share.

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

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1. The Cinderella Motion Incinerating Toilet


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A while back I asked if anyone had experience with the Cinderella incinerating toilet, and could comment on its functionality -- see post #1573 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1924024#post1924024 :






But it occurred to me since that since this is an English-language web-forum, and most participants are American, Australian, British, or Canadian, it's very unlikely that any participants will be familiar with the Cinderella toilet. Furthermore, Cinderella still seems to be a largely Scandinavian product, popular in Sweden and Norway, but relatively unknown even in continental Europe – see http://www.cinderella-toilet.nl/en/#t4Tab . So it seems even more unlikely that anyone participating on ExPo could provide much insight. It dawned on me that in order to figure out whether the Cinderella would be suitable for TerraLiner use, and whether its power consumption should be included in the estimated figure for the camper-body as a whole, I would have to do the research myself. Thinking through the choice of toilet system for the TerraLiner is mission-critical. It's every bit as mission critical as the configuration of the drivetrain, or the size of the generator + battery pack + solar arrays to allow for "mostly silent" camping.

As suggested on the previous page, there is an ethical aspect to toilet choice: one does not want to have to empty a blackwater tank into a Third-World watershed.

There is also a practical, logistical dimension. If camping for 6 months in a particularly beautiful, comfortable spot, a spot where one gets along well with the farmer, one would not want to pack up the TerraLiner and leave temporarily just in order to find an RV campground or a dump station where one could empty a blackwater tank. Most farms will not be set up to accept TerraLiner sewage, so it's best not to create sewage in the first place. Ergo, the only real toilet options for the TerraLiner will be either (a) a composting toilet, or (b) an incinerating toilet. For design, convenience, and aesthetic reasons an incinerating toilet seems strongly preferred over composting. See post #2410 on the previous page for more discussion, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=2014963#post2014963 . Agreed, an incinerating toilet is still not quite flush-and-forget. But it's much closer to the flush-and-forget experience than a composting toilet. Furthermore, the TerraLiner will be a high-energy-consumption RV in any case, with a huge amount of solar + a very large battery pack. So even though electrical incineration might be too energy-intensive for many conventional motorhomes, it will not be for the TerraLiner.

However, an incinerating toilet will only work just as long as the central Achilles heal of most incinerating toilets -- the terrific smell they produce when running through their burn cycles -- could be overcome. So given that the Cinderella was just discussed in relation to the problem of sewage when dry-camping for extended periods on farms, this seemed an opportune moment to delve further. This seems like a good point to take Google Translate in hand, and research Cinderella in Dutch, Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish, to see what Scandinavians themselves are saying about the product.

First off, the website easiest to access for Anglophones is the Dutch one, because it has a clear English-language option – see http://www.cinderella-toilet.nl , http://www.cinderella-toilet.nl/en/ , http://www.cinderella-toilet.nl/#section-cinderella-video , http://www.cinderella-toilet.nl/en/#section-built-with-love , http://www.cinderella-toilet.nl/en/comfort/ , http://www.cinderella.as , http://www.cinderella.as/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=356 , and https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://www.cinderella-toilet.nl/&prev=search . Unfortunately the Dutch website does not have as much information as one would like. In particular, it does not have specific product PDFs. Even switching to other languages (Dutch, French, German, Italian) does not change the information-density of the website. Still exactly the same webpages, just different languages.

There is also a Norwegian website -- Cinderella is a Norwegian product -- and the website is partially available in English, at http://www.cinderellaeco.no , http://demo6.flashmedia.no , http://demo6.flashmedia.no/aktuelt , http://www.siriuseco.no/en-us/cinderellatoilet.aspx , http://www.siriuseco.no , http://www.siriuseco.no/en-us/functions.aspx , and http://www.siriuseco.no/en-us/distributors.aspx . Unfortunately -- or perhaps fortunately.. .-- just a quick browse of the website in Norwegian (as opposed to English), suggests that there is much more information available in that language. See for instance http://demo6.flashmedia.no/cinderella-best-i-test , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...shmedia.no/cinderella-best-i-test&prev=search , http://demo6.flashmedia.no/index.ph...list&search=event_page&task=search&Itemid=512 , and http://demo6.flashmedia.no/nedlastinger .

Most importantly, on the Norwegian side of the website there is large PDF library at http://demo6.flashmedia.no/nedlastinger . And the PDFs are all multilingual, including English. Why there is only easy access to these excellent PDFs via the Norwegian side of the website, is a bit of a mystery......

Now for space reasons, I will only post the English sections of the PDFs. They are awfully useful, because they go into the nitty-gritty details of what it might actually mean to own and use a Cinderella. First, here is the PDF about the Cinderella "Motion" incinerating toilet, the one very recently created (circa 2011 - 2013?), for specific use in motorhomes -- see http://demo6.flashmedia.no/index.ph...ance_groupx&xi=3&file=document_upload&id=1377 :









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As must be clear from these PDF pages, the Cinderella "Motion" is most definitely a gas-operated incinerating toilet, and is intended for motorhomes that use LPG. So it would not really be suitable for the TerraLiner, for this reason alone. Instead, we'll want to investigate the electric "Classic" and "Comfort" models.



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2. The Cinderella Classic


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Here is the PDF which provides information specifically for the "Classic" model; again only the English pages posted (see http://demo6.flashmedia.no/index.ph...uals_groupx&xi=0&file=document_upload&id=1377 for the full document):








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3. The Cinderella Comfort


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And here is the detailed PDF information about the "Comfort" model (see http://demo6.flashmedia.no/index.ph...uals_groupx&xi=1&file=document_upload&id=1377 for the full PDF):









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These are the English-language pages from the "User Guide" PDF, which covers both the "Classic" and the "Comfort" models (see http://demo6.flashmedia.no/index.ph...ance_groupx&xi=1&file=document_upload&id=1377 for the full PDF):











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4. A very clear PDF


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This seems to be an older PDF, produced before a distinction developed between the Cinderella "Classic" and the Cinderella "Comfort". But it's incredibly clear, so thought I should post it as well:


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5. The Cinderella Urinal


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Now it seems that Cinderella also makes urinals, designed to be used in "package" combinations with its toilets, no doubt to cut down on power consumption when one only needs to do number 1.

For better or worse, information about Cinderella's urinals is only available in Norwegian, either on the Norwegian website, or on the websites of Cinderella's Norwegian distributors. First, here are the links in Norwegian, followed by Google translations in English.Norwegian: http://demo6.flashmedia.no/våre-toaletter/cinderella-urinal , http://demo6.flashmedia.no , http://demo6.flashmedia.no/våre-toaletter , http://demo6.flashmedia.no/pakker , http://demo6.flashmedia.no/pakker/classic-urinal , http://demo6.flashmedia.no/pakker/comfort-urinal , http://www.hyttelivsenteret.no/products/cinderella-urinal , http://www.hyttespesialisten.no/cinderella_urinal# , and http://www.bygghjemme.no/baderom/to...alett-cinderella-classic-plus-urinal/p-512508 ; English Translations: https://translate.googleusercontent...urinal&usg=ALkJrhjFQ9nys2HG2JuAN0NpOn9hEb6jSw , https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=no&u=http://demo6.flashmedia.no/&prev=search , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...emo6.flashmedia.no/våre-toaletter&prev=search , https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=no&u=http://demo6.flashmedia.no/pakker&prev=search , https://translate.googleusercontent...urinal&usg=ALkJrhh1JfU0n1CbFgjEMkp7RpubuQ-XXw , https://translate.googleusercontent...urinal&usg=ALkJrhjFzk8032HwSy7AqbOIvWlLktaG7w , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...spesialisten.no/cinderella_urinal&prev=search , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...ret.no/products/cinderella-urinal&prev=search , and https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...ella-classic-plus-urinal/p-512508&prev=search .

Here is the PDF in Norwegian, plus some images:



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Here is the English translation, via Google translate:

CINDERELLA URINAL Installation and user manual

Function:

Cinderella Urinal should ONLY be used for urination, and is well suited for relief toilet to existing toilet solutions in the cabin. It can be placed either next to or near the main toilet or in a private room if it is most appropriate.


Installation:

Install urinal in the desired place, 50 mm outflow urine can either be discharged through the wall or floor, note that the floor implementation will the toilet distance to back wall will be approximately 20 cm. Drain pipe for urine discharge to a suitable recipient as sand filter, collecting tank or other gråvannsløsning. The urinal attached to the base with screws (not included) or by using silicone. When Cinderella Urinal mounted, and outflow to receiving is connected, the toilet is ready for use.


Smell Stopper:

Cinderella urinal is equipped with a membrane odor barrier, which prevents odors in the toilet room. The solution does not require sealing fluid, and is therefore always frost resistant. Maintenance of odor lock is rinsed in water once or twice a year.



Alternative receipt of urinary drainage:

Drainage own reception tank

If the cottage has closely collecting tank for water toilet can urine drain plugs directly into the sewer or tank. Urine may be optionally passed to a separate receiving tank for urine discharged by slamsugebil when needed.


Drainage own gråvannsfilter

If the cottage has an existing gråvannsfilter for showers and washing water can drain from Cinderella Urinal connected therewith.


Sand Filters:

If the cottage is located more than 40 m from surface water may establish a discharge arrangement for urine in his own reason, assuming suitable soil. For shorter distances from the surface competence should be contacted. An infiltration trench, as shown in the diagram below can be a sensible solution. This can even arrange. The bottom of the ditch should be flat and not go deeper than 50 cm below the soil surface. Urine is drained then into a layer of eg. crushed stone or Leca balls. Over the drainage layer laid geotextile and soil to prevent odor formation and frost.



Use:

Drainage Ditch with crushed stone or Leca

Cinderella Urinal is only a toilet for urinating and is a unisex model that can be used by both sexes. In use it if necessary sprayed some water in the toilet if it should hang in urine remaining after a toilet visit to prevent odor. The toilet is cleaned as a normal toilet, but it is not recommended use chemicals, only water or mild soap water which is biological. Polish gladly toilet bowl with car / boat wax (do not contain abrasives) to preserve the surface fine finish and to prevent odors sits. Repeated if required. The toilet does not contain any liquids and is at all times frost resistant.

Much earlier in the thread dwh recommended that one might want the TerraLiner's owners to urinate when having a shower, so as to recycle water even more effectively. But the TerraLiner will be a "posh" motorhome. And at the same time, if the TerraLiner's toilet will be incinerating (as opposed to composting, or vacuum flushing), then it seems to make lots of sense in terms of energy consumption to have a separate urinal installed in the bathroom. I hadn't thought of this before, and of course it will have implications for bathroom dimensions. Again, the value of very thorough research.....:ylsmoke:

A urinal might also be set up to feed into the greywater system, even though urine is usual lumped together with faeces as "blackwater". Although urine can contain pathogens (it's a mistake to think that it never does), and although once urine leaves the body it's an ideal breading liquid for bacteria, it may still be desirable to recycle it. I am not really sure about this one. Note that the urinal would not have to be a Cinderella. A Norwegian PDF Catalog produced by a Cinderella distributor begins with the Cinderella (no doubt because it's such a popular product), but then has lots of other "alternative" toilet products, including urinals made by manufacturers other than Cinderella -- see https://www.hyttebutikken.no/web-content/Katalog 2012/gruppe_hyttetoaletter.pdf :


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The TerraLiner's RO system will be designed to screen out all pathogens, including viruses that are much smaller than pathogens like E. Coli, i.e. the kind of bacteria that one might find in the urine of a person who has a urinary tract infection. So even though I have some degree of trepidation regarding all human waste products, it seems that urine recycling might be safe.


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