TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

[nick disjunkt]

Hi Biotect,

I'm sure you are aware but currently it is necessary to employ a guide when driving a foreign vehicle into China. This costs around $1,000 per week and your itinerary, must by pre-approved before entry. In addition special permits are required to visit the occupied territory of Tibet. At present the idea of parking for months in Tibet is a pipe-dream, although things are likely to change as China opens itself up.

 

[biotect]

Hi Nick,

Yes, I'm a bit of a Hegelian liberal, in the sense that I think liberal democracy is a universally inevitable development. There is probably a very close connection between becoming an advanced, First-World society economically speaking, and being a politically free, open society as well. Countries that get caught in the "middle income trap" are generally countries that have found it hard to make the transition to full democratic liberalism -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_income_trap , http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/03/focus-3 , It's Democracy, Stupid: Reappraising the Middle-Income Trap , https://www.stratfor.com/weekly/illusion-democracy , https://quadrant.org.au/magazine/2015/12/capitalisms-halting-progress-asia/ , https://www.chinafile.com/reporting-opinion/viewpoint/how-contagious-taiwans-democracy , http://www.rand.org/pubs/reprints/RP1370.html , http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/reprints/2008/RAND_RP1370.pdf , and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_society .

So I am calculating that the Chinese are smart, and that many of their brightest, western-educated younger technocrats will be able to tell the communist party quite directly that if China does not liberalize and become fully democratic as per Korea, Taiwan, or Japan, China will never escape the middle income trap. Russia probably won't escape the middle income trap, for instance, because for reasons I do not fully understand, most of the intelligent Russians I know have some kind of sentimental attachment to autocracy, and are happy to see Putin as a Czar. They positively embrace rule by a "strong man", and are ready with a long list of excuses as to why Russia must be an autocratic and now increasingly fascistic country. Whereas the Chinese are more ideologically pragmatic, and they've got lots of other Asian models to follow of successful transition to First-World economic status and liberal institutions.

But you are right, it was an assumption that I should have made explicit; and perhaps it's an optimistic assumption? The articles just referenced do a good job exploring the different dimensions of the question, including the extent to which Taiwan may serve as China's democratic tutor.


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As you know, I was merely trying to demonstrate to safas that there are lots of very big lakes high up in mountains worth exploring, and that "surf glamper" is more of an aesthetic and rhetorical term, as opposed to an operational or logistical term, and should not be taken too literally. Now that I have developed a very good, powerful argument as to why designing for ugliness or militareseque threat display is a stupid strategy, and counterproductive, I no longer need to be so rhetorically assertive.

If you've been following the things recently written about forms of mimicry, it should be clear that Vavilovian mimicry is the best solution: designing to send zero information, and a null signal. Some people will claim that UniCat and Actionmobil are already doing just this, because their vehicles still (sort of) look like freight trucks. But their expedition motorhomes also do not look like freight trucks at all, because of the small windows, the motorcycle lifts in back, etc. At the very least, they look like very unusual vehicles, even if they also look like rather ugly ones. Ugliness is another way of standing out as unusual, and unusual is not good, because unusual means "different" from background noise. Unusual ugliness sends a signal, too, and also provides too much information.

As egn complained earlier in the thread, potential aggressors in Second and Third World countries are beginning to recognize the large expedition motorhome as a distinct vehicle type, and they are targeting UniCats and Actionmobils accordingly. Whereas with its fold-up decks, the TerraLiner should be able to do a very good job mimicking a 3-axle freight truck, pulling a drawbar trailer. Texas Armoring has the right solution: one's vehicle should look like all the rest. It should look like just another instance of a standard vehicle type, "hiding in plain sight" -- see http://www.tactical-life.com/military-and-police/texas-armoring-vehicles/ . That way there is no particular reason to single it out for aggression.

My apologies, but I needed to come up with a term like "surf glamper" in order to push back hard against the more aggressive types on the thread who were insisting that for "practical" reasons, the TerraLiner would have to look like a threatening, rectilinear troop carrier. My gut told me that this was dead wrong, as well as unethical, and undesirable from an aesthetic point of view. But it took a while for me to think all of this through deeply enough, so that I could reply to such types rationally and cogently, explaining exactly why they are wrong. Turns out they are wrong not just for ethical and aesthetic reasons, but also for basic psychological ones. Batesian (i.e. aggressive) mimicry does not work reliably in the human world. It either fails to convince (FPB boats), or it backfires and invites aggression. That's a terrific argument, but not an obvious one. So until I developed it, I needed to get the military-minded types to back off, and I needed to insist that the TerraLiner will be a surf glamper whether they like it or not.

All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[back woods]

Hi back woods,

Just did a search of your thread using the term "dogs", and turns out that your trailer is a dog kennel after all -- see http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/tow-rigs-trailers/2115450-version-3-0-a-27.html . And that you seem to specialize in either breeding or training birding dogs (or both), and then entering them into competitions:






Sorry that I didn't catch that earlier; it should have been obvious from the oddly low-rise height of your trailer, which is not nearly tall enough to accommodate horses.

So in effect you developed your rig to serve a very particular lifestyle, the lifestyle of someone whose living perhaps involves touring places where people want to buy well-bred, well-trained birding dogs?

All best wishes,



Biotect

We haul horses is the trailer also. Up to 6 head, Tennessee Walkers which are the bullet proof Cadillacs of the horse world. We compete with the dogs and train/persure on wild birds around the country.

 

[back woods]

The trailer also has an open floor plan an can be treated like an enclosed trailer. We also haul an John Deere gator 825i and numerous other supplies. We can stay off the grid with horses and dogs for about 3 weeks before making any supply runs.

 

[biotect]

Hi back woods,

Interesting. Do you have solar? Or is all your power off-grid via generator, diesel heater, etc.? From a power, water, and sewage point of view, how exactly do you boondock off-grid?

A bit about Tennessee Walkers -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_Walking_Horse :






Just for the record, even though I myself no longer hunt or use guns, I still have a soft-spot for hunters. In the absence of wolves, for instance, hunters are needed to control deer populations that are spiraling out of control. Massive winter die-offs because of deer overpopulation has become a serious problem. And before the die-off, too many deer foraging for food can substantially alter an ecosystem, for instance, making it impossible for young oak trees to take hold. An oak forest will turn into a beech forest, because the deer prefer oak saplings.

Some will argue that without hunting, deer populations would naturally stabilize. They argue that hunting skews the sex-ratio (because hunters prefer trophy bucks), and this actually produces overpopulation the next season, for reasons that I don't quite follow. Or they'll argue that we should let natural predators come back, like wolves. I am not a biologist, but it seems that the "just leave the ecosystem alone" strategy can't work. For better or worse evolution has produced homo sapiens, an unnaturally intelligent animal, so a truly "natural" ecosystem is no longer possible. Even a national park of the American kind that tries to preserve wilderness, is still an artificial construct, because it has a delimited boundary. So on my own view our only choice is to try to understand ecosystems better through science, and manage them better than we have in the past.

For instance Ducks Unlimited, an organization founded by hunters, has done more to preserve wetlands than all other environmental groups combined. Unlike many environmentalists who want to ride roughshod over property rights and simply legislate a given area of wetland as protected, hunters are willing to stump up good money and pay for the land. Liberal environmentalists aren't saving ducks; hunters are. And it's their active efforts that are saving ducks; a passive strategy alone would be insufficient. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducks_Unlimited , http://www.ducks.org , http://www.ducks.org/conservation , http://www.ducks.org/conservation/where-we-work , http://www.ducks.org/conservation/how-du-conserves-wetlands-and-waterfowl , http://www.ducks.org/conservation/habitat/benefits-of-wetlands-and-grasslands , http://www.ducks.ca , http://www.ducks.ca/places/ontario/ , http://www.ducks.ca/our-work/wetlands/ , http://www.ducks.ca/our-work/landowners/ , http://www.ducks.ca/rescue-our-wetlands/ , http://www.unbc.ca/sites/default/files/jobs/37831/volunteer/ducks_unlimited_canada.pdf , and http://www.ducks.org/media/_global/_documents/stateFactSheets/NationalFactSheet.pdf :






And see the Youtube channels at https://www.youtube.com/user/DucksUnlimitedInc and https://www.youtube.com/user/DucksUnlimitedCanada .

If you've read the previous 20 or 30 pages, you'll know that my relationship to guns and hunting is "complicated". Even though I no longer hunt myself, I don't condemn hunters, and I empathize with their lifestyle and feeling for wildlife. Non-hunters think it's kinda weird that hunters love the animals that they hunt. But when I was 12 I created an album of drawings of a wide variety of species of ducks, including those I hunted. So although I am now a Buddhist and a pacifist, I don't cynically assume that hunters can't be environmentalists, too, or that hunters can't appreciate the beauty of nature for its own sake. If anything, because they hunt, they tend to develop an intense interest in ecology and habitat. I certainly did. For the hunter nature is not just an aesthetic experience, as it is for many non-hunters. Just watch the videos above, which demonstrate Ducks Unlimited's intense commitment to ecological science.

All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[back woods]

For now we use 12v/gas gen/propane gen, along with propane heat. Plan on some panels down the road to charge the 12v. Also have plans for a diesel generator/welder mounted mid ship in the service bed of the F700 along will all the tools for a mobile fab shop, including wood working.

 

[biotect]

Hi back woods,

I have a question to ask you because, well, you are you.

The issue has come up whether it's realistic to imagine the TerraLiner dry-camping or "boondocking" for extended periods (3 - 6 months) on farmland.

A while back egn wrote that "camping on farmland is an illusion", because farmers would not want their soil compacted by the long-term presence of a large motorhome, they would not want the noise of a generator, and so on. I was quite surprised when egn wrote this. I respect egn's views very much, but I wonder if he may be wrong on this particular point. Immediately I thought that the problem of soil compaction would only be a worry for farmers who specialize in market gardening, i.e. vegetables, strawberries, etc. But this would not necessarily be an issue for a large ranch, a horse farm, a dairy farm, a vineyard or orchard, and a wide variety of other kinds of farms. And especially not for those farms that are already set up partly as "agriturismi", as farms that welcome vacationers, and function as part-time B&Bs or boutique hotels.

Your profession puts you right in the thick of farms and farmers, but at the more "equine" ends of things.

So the question is this:


How realistic do you think it would be, imagining the TerraLiner traveling through Second and Third World countries that do not have developed RV facilities (no paved pitches with hookups), and dry-camping instead, for long periods on land rented from farmers, perhaps horse-farms or ranches in particular?

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The question is not whether it would be realistic for a vehicle like the TerraLiner to boondock for such a lengthy period. Rather, the question is whether it's realistic from the point of view of potential host-farmers. Whether or not they would be interested.

Remember, the TerraLiner is being designed for "mostly silent" camping, with a large generator recharging a large battery pack at most once every three or four days, and usually more like once every week or 10 days. And the generator will run for only 2 hours or less when it recharges the battery pack. Solar will be massive too, supplementing the generator. So the TerraLiner will not be "noisy" as per large motorhomes that often run their 20 KW generators around the clock, especially when the A/C is on. Thanks to a large battery pack, large generator, and massive solar, the TerraLiner will have the ability to camp mostly in silence, even though it will be a high-energy-usage camper, when the A/C is running in particular.

Also remember that the TerraLiner is projected to slow-travel, so the farmer might look forward to 3- 6 months' rent. The arrival and departure of the TerraLiner would be the most demanding times from the farmer's point of view. So the hassle-to-rent ratio would be very low for him, at least in comparison to staying for just a few days, or just a few weeks.

The TerraLiner will also be designed to be unusually autonomous in terms of water, sewage, and power, and would leave no greywater or blackwater mess behind. For instance, it will have an incinerating toilet, probably a Cinderella, because Cinderalla incinerating toilets promise to be odor-free.

Are you familiar with "Harvest Hosts", a network of farms that host RVs to dry-camp -- for free! -- for a night? See https://harvesthosts.com , https://harvesthosts.com/invitation.htm , https://harvesthosts.com/Maps.htm , https://harvesthosts.com/faq_page.htm#What_kind_of_vehicles_are_allowed , https://harvesthosts.com/faq_page.htm#large_RV , https://harvesthosts.com/faq_page.htm#generator , https://harvesthosts.com/faq_page.htm#24_hours , https://harvesthosts.com/Host_Location_Photos.htm , https://www.flickr.com/photos/harvesthosts/ , https://harvesthosts.com/press.htm , https://harvesthosts.com/who_is_hh.htm , and http://www.gonewiththewynns.com/harvest-hosts-free-rv-parking-farms-wineries:






Although set up as an overnight program, longer stays are possible at the discretion of the farmers. This is a U.S.-based scheme, but if farm-camping is possible in the U.S., then there should be no reason why one could not make arrangements in advance to stay at farms right across the planet. Specialist companies serving niche-markets in "Agri-Tourism", "Organic Farm Tourism", "Eco-Lodge Tourism", "Ranch Tourism", and "Equine Tourism" could set things up.

The first video is especially interesting, because the Wynns (perhaps America's most famous RV couple) discuss farm camping comparatively, within the wider context of different motorhoming styles and possibilities. As they write on their website:

Let's face it, finding a real and authentic experience these days is becoming more…and more difficult. Campgrounds and RV Resorts are turning into glorified parking lots with electrical boxes, water spigots and hotel sized fees. We started RV'ing to find adventure, escape suburbia and enrich our lives. So, we're ditching the parking lots for farms & wineries!

We've been staying at farms and wineries since we first started RV'ing and these stays have been some of our most unique experiences. We usually found these opportunities through friends but it wasn't something we could do everywhere, much less something we could easily suggest or recommend you to do.

Enter Harvest Hosts; a camping program created by a couple of fellow RV'ers who love staying at unique places as much as we do. We've been members of HH for over a year now and have gotten a lot of questions about the program.....

See http://www.gonewiththewynns.com/harvest-hosts-free-rv-parking-farms-wineries: . In their video the Wynns took the words right out of my mouth:

[Farm camping] is changing the way we travel, and it's a new way to camp which hasn't existed before.

I hope that everyone participating in this thread watches this one video in full. It expresses so much in images that words cannot, and conveys what truly "authentic" RV travel might mean, at least for me. Just imagine instead that the farmers speak a different language, and one camps in a foreign culture, and perhaps an unusual, counter-intuitive climate. Furthermore, imagine one farm-camps not for a day, but for 3 months. Take everything the Wynns communicate in this video, amplify by 100 days, and globalize. Imagine novel cross-cultural encounters through farm-camping sowing seeds of trans-national solidarity, and nurturing emergent rivers of global empathy.

Finally, notice how the Wynns travel: a Class A, towing a TOAD.


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[biotect]

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In France there is also something called "Camping à La Ferme" (Camping on a Farm), and it's widespread and popular -- see http://about-france.com/tourism/camping.htm , http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/a...1111/Camping-Pitch-for-a-cheaper-holiday.html , https://www.france-passion.com/en/ , https://www.france-passion.com/en/france-passion/history , https://www.france-passion.com/en/motorhomers/how-it-works , https://www.france-passion.com/en/motorhomers/stopover-map , https://www.france-passion.com/en/motorhomers/golden-rules , https://www.france-passion.com/en/motorhomers/faq , https://www.france-passion.com/en/france-passion/photos-videos , https://www.france-passion.com/en/france-passion/pressreleases , http://camping.hpaguide.com/t8.camping-ferme.php , http://www.campingo.com/camping-a-la-ferme-france , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme-corse.com/Fr/presentation_id1.html , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme-corse.com/Fr/camping_a_la_ferme_ca2.html , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme-corse.com/Fr/ferme_equestre_ca5.html , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bienvenue_à_la_ferme , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/sejours-accueil-de-camping-car , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/guides , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/files/download/guidebaf2015basse_def_1.pdf , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/files/download/catalogue_baf_internet.pdf , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/files/download/guidebaf2015basse_def_1.pdf , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/files/download/bd_guide_balf_2011_12_1_5_megas.pdf , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/files/download/carte_2012.pdf , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/files/download/guide_2015_v4_valide.pdf , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/files/download/baf_ra_2015_e_1.pdf , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/files/download/carte_2014_br.pdf , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/files/download/146517-carte_bretagne.pdf , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/files/download/plaquette_2010.pdf , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/files/download/81_verso_cartebaf_2014_v10.pdf , http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/files/download/guide20151.jpg , and http://www.bienvenue-a-la-ferme.com/files/download/guide20152.jpg :






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[biotect]

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As these abundant videos, links, and PDFs attest, "Camping à La Ferme" is very well-developed in France. Even if you don't speak or understand French, these PDFs and videos should be fairly self-explanatory.

So the big logistical bet in TerraLiner design is that a form of motorhoming developed in France could be broadened to the global level.

This logistical bet is also a security bet. I am counting on the idea that if the TerraLiner were deliberately designed to dry-camp or boondock for long periods on farms around the world, it will then be farmers, their dogs, and their guns that keep the TerraLiner safe. Camping on farmland is a "sociological" solution to the problem of TerraLiner security when traveling the globe.

Here I am asking for your considered opinion, regarding something that might be experimental at first. I am asking whether you think this might be a realistic logistical/operational format for the TerraLiner. At this point, all we have are opinions to go by, because no motorhomes have been designed yet to travel in this way specifically, at a global level. But some opinions are worth more than others, because some people -- like yourself -- are more tied into the "farm network", and would be able to offer more considered judgements. Any and all of your thoughts on this topic would be extremely valuable. Any and all considerations, caveats, potential problems that you could foresee, opportunities for synergies, you name it: your thoughts here would be very important.

Again, this is the big logistical bet in TerraLiner design, so I was a bit surprised when egn wrote that he thought that camping on farmland is "an illusion". egn is German, so I would have thought he might be familiar with "Camping à La Ferme" as it has emerged in France. But perhaps not. TerraLiner design as I have been developing it critically depends on this logistical bet. So your feedback here would be gratefully appreciated. Please feel free to take your time with this, and respond whenever you have a chunk of free time available.

Again, I am specifically asking you this question because of who you are, and what you do for a living.


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[biotect]

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Here is what it might look like. These images are from the Harvest Host Flickr Stream, at https://www.flickr.com/photos/harvesthosts/ :










Motorhoming as it was meant to be......:sunny:


All best wishes,




Biotect

 

[biotect]

For now we use 12v/gas gen/propane gen, along with propane heat. Plan on some panels down the road to charge the 12v. Also have plans for a diesel generator/welder mounted mid ship in the service bed of the F700 along will all the tools for a mobile fab shop, including wood working.

While your post is still nearby, different questions on completely different subjects: you do woodworking, in addition to horse and dog-training? And: what kind of dog do you train specifically? What is the breed, and why? The video mentioned pointers -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_breed.

Sure, these questions are completely off-topic, and perhaps have nothing to do directly with TerraLiner design. But I admire traditional craftspeople, and have taken a number of courses at Art School in welding, aluminum and bronze casting, woodworking, mold-making, jewelry making, ceramics, clay figurative sculpting, etc. So I know my way around wood shops and metal shops, even though I have and use a 3D printer. As written earlier in the thread, I think sculptural intelligence needs to be tied down to real materials in the real world in order to express itself properly, and CAD is no substitute for plaster, clay, etc.

I am also thinking of getting a dog, which will have to be a German Shepherd. No choice in the matter. But I want to properly train him/her to be completely "sociable" and friendly towards strangers, as per a Golden Retriever. Has to be a Shepherd because they are so darn intelligent. But their personalities seem to vary greatly.

Can't really remember "Cora" because she died when I was still very young; only remember that I loved her, very much. But in my teens we had a dog named "Sergeant" who was given to us by the police. Sergeant was a "jumper", and so smart and trainable that they didn't use him in the field, but rather, used him to train other police dogs. One day jumping a wall Sergeant faltered, fell back and broke his tail, and he refused to jump again. My father has sold a fortune in ammunition and firearms to the RCMP (the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, sort of Canada's FBI) and the OPP (the Ontario Provincial Police). Before the Near Death Experience, in my late teens I worked one summer for my parents and helped them introduce serial-number tracking into their computer system. Whenever a gun used in a homicide imported by my father's/brother's company is found in Canada, the police can immediately track it to the gunshop where it was sold, just by logging on to the company's computer system. Yes, this is a bit "Big Brother", and may freak out some Americans reading this. But I still feel very proud of that contribution to Canadian gun-control, which I strongly believe in. The police were extremely grateful, and wanted to do something for my father, and he mentioned that we needed another German Shepherd. By that point, my parents always had at least two. So the police gave my father Sergeant.

Sergeant was an amazing dog. Rather unbelievable; a true aristocrat even amongst Shepherds. He had a level of self-composure that few people can match, and had this great way of crossing his paws:







Some Shepherds do this, but not all. Not sure what disposes some and not others? But gosh, the ones who do cross their paws look awfully dignified and regal.

Sergeant had no problem with strangers, and his barking was always controlled and carefully calibrated. He never took himself or his barking too seriously, and it was never an expression of fear. It was merely a warning intended for his keepers, namely, us. Once we signaled him to stop, he quit in a nanosecond. He came "preprogrammed" with all this stuff he would do in response to hand signals at quite a distance.

He always asserted dominance in the presence of other dogs, but in some kind of magical way this never seemed to involve overt aggression. Other dogs just accepted that Sergeant was Alpha. And yet he was also very friendly, fun-loving, and warm. Not diffident at all, the way some Shepherds are.

How does one train a Shepherd to become this way? Could you recommend a really good book, or a few?

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[back woods]

Farmers can be tricky. Pulling up to a farm, talking to the guy and letting you stay is a far reach. It can be done but takes time and relationship building. Nothing to do with packing the soil (425hp John Deere doesn't care) or being loud, since a lot of farmers have 1000s of acres with no one around. It's more about the "good ole boy" connection. Farmers are smart and have been there done that. They need to get to know you before they let you set up camp on their land. Due to the fact that past deals have gone sour in other ways and they don't want to travel that road again. (Whatever it may be) Until they know what kind of person you are and don't want something for free, it is tough.

In the US it varies, we have BLM land and State land that is open to the public for camping/recreation/etc. Many places allow a 14 day stay (for free) before you have to move (500yd away). One place for example is the Empire Ranch in Senoita AZ, all BLM land for public use. Same can be said about BLM in Montana. In Michigan there is millions of acres of state land open to the public. Not grazing land like BLM but more of open forest with no fences. Same goes there, 14 days in one spot before they want you to move. Only requirement is to print off a piece of paper from the .gov and sign it. We stay on a mix of private and public land in our travels. Sometimes it's about being in the right place at the right time meeting the right person. Other times you need to broadcast your search to let people know what you are looking for. Takes a lot of patience and reaching an agreement that both parties can hold up on their end.

 

[back woods]

On the subject of "wood working/welding" etc. (Nothing fancy, repairs, small projects). It more or less comes down to two things. Having the ability to fix or modify things on the road to keep you rolling and being self sufficient (waiting on other people only gets you so far). The other is the bargaining chip you have. Sure it is nice to shell out coin to get what you want but that isn't always a possibility. For example, you have a truck with a mobile shop. (Basic tools, hand tools, welder, grinder, etc.). You are in a far away land somewhere you'd like to set up camp. The locals are nice, food is good and so is the weather. Kind of a 3rd world place with broken English and limited resources. How does a "gringo" fit in with the locals? Fix something of theirs for free. Whether it be an old hay wagon with some busted welds making it inop. Or a set of stairs that needs some screws and a new piece of wood. Fix a few things and before you know it you have some friends. Don't expect anything, just be glad to provide a service. Before you know it the locals will open up to you, then the "good ole boy" network of local farmers starts liking you because you aren't a takee and can provide something besides a wad of cash that would go towards a repair anyways. Simple concept but it goes a long way.

 

[biotect]

Farmers can be tricky. Pulling up to a farm, talking to the guy and letting you stay is a far reach. It can be done but takes time and relationship building. Nothing to do with packing the soil (425hp John Deere doesn't care) or being loud, since a lot of farmers have 1000s of acres with no one around. It's more about the "good ole boy" connection. Farmers are smart and have been there done that. They need to get to know you before they let you set up camp on their land. Due to the fact that past deals have gone sour in other ways and they don't want to travel that road again. (Whatever it may be) Until they know what kind of person you are and don't want something for free, it is tough.

In the US it varies, we have BLM land and State land that is open to the public for camping/recreation/etc. Many places allow a 14 day stay (for free) before you have to move (500yd away). One place for example is the Empire Ranch in Senoita AZ, all BLM land for public use. Same can be said about BLM in Montana. In Michigan there is millions of acres of state land open to the public. Not grazing land like BLM but more of open forest with no fences. Same goes there, 14 days in one spot before they want you to move. Only requirement is to print off a piece of paper from the .gov and sign it. We stay on a mix of private and public land in our travels. Sometimes it's about being in the right place at the right time meeting the right person. Other times you need to broadcast your search to let people know what you are looking for. Takes a lot of patience and reaching an agreement that both parties can hold up on their end.

Hi back woods,

Many thanks for that. Very useful insights. The Wynns write more or less the same thing on their website: that before Harvest Host existed, they did stay on a few farms, but it was hit-and-miss, and they only managed to do so through "connections" -- see http://www.gonewiththewynns.com/harvest-hosts-free-rv-parking-farms-wineries . Whereas now that Harvest Host exists, the whole process has been simplified, and made easier on both ends, for motor-homers and farmers alike.

Outside First-World countries like the United States, Canada, Australia, Japan, and Western-European states, free-camping on public land may often prove problematic. Simply not safe. That's why I have been thinking about travel companies specialized in niche markets like equine tourism or agri-tourism, contacting the destinations they are familiar with on the TerraLiner's behalf (e.g. ranches, riding centers, horse farms, eco-lodges, agriturismi), and making arrangements well in advance. I was definitely not imagining the TerraLiner approaching a farmer "on the fly". Agreed, that would be a far reach. I've always been imagining the TerraLiner pre-booking its farm-stays, via specialized travel companies.



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1. France: Inspiring the World to Camp on Farmland


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Furthermore, Harvest Host seems to be working well, and the original "France Passion" model has been going strong for over 20 years. This suggests that networks of farmers open to motorhomes can be built up -- see https://harvesthosts.com/Maps.htm , https://www.france-passion.com/en/motorhomers/how-it-works , and https://harvesthosts.com/index.html, https://www.france-passion.com/upload/miniatures/m1_NDcy_1000_16_arte-France-Passion768x768-png.png :







Networks similar to the original French model have now emerged in at least 9 other countries (still counting Canada as a separate country.....:sombrero: ) -- see https://www.france-passion.com/en/motorhomers/faq :

Yes, other organisations have followed the France Passion model:

ITALY:
- Fattore Amico fattoreamico.com , https://it-it.facebook.com/fattoreamico

GERMANY:
- WinzerAtlas verlagshop.de/wa2015
- Landvergnügen landvergnuegen.com

GREAT-BRITAIN:
- Brit Stops britstops.com

PORTUGAL:
- Portugal Tradicional portugaltradicional.com.pt

SPAIN:
- España Discovery espana-discovery.es , http://espanadiscovery.blogspot.com

SWEDEN:
- Swede Stops http://www.swedestops.se

SWITZERLAND:
- Swiss Terroir swissterroir.ch- Special rates for France Passion members

USA / CANADA:
- Harvest Hosts harvesthosts.com- Special rates for France Passion members

For other countries you can contact the national motorhome federations.

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Here are some maps of the networks developed thus far in Britain, Spain, Germany, Portugal, and Italy:








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