TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

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Again, I couldn't find much on Panoramio about Angpa Tso, but as the photos directly above demonstrate, Pumoyong Tso is quite a different story. Pumoyong Tso is very photogenic, and so Panoramio is packed with imagery. Pumoyong Tso is located just north of Bhutan, so the mountains you see in the photos above are the northernmost beginnings of the Himalayas:







Pumoyong Tso also locates just south of Lhasa, so it's probably more easily accessible than Angpo Tso, even though sitting at a slightly higher altitude.

In short, unlike Angpa Tso, Pumoyong Tso may well be worth a spin in a Williams DieselJet.....:sombrero:


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13. Disclaimer: Using Photoshop as an Imagination Pump


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My apologies in advance to any and all who might find my photo-manipulations a bit “disturbing”. Once one learns how to fantasize using Photoshop, it becomes a hard habit to break. Those my age and younger understand that it’s just a tool, nothing more. But as a tool, Photoshop is a quick way to prime the pump of the imagination, and serves as nice supplement to free-hand sketching.

These are just playful Photoshop photo-collages. Sure, I’m playing fast and loose with iconography, deliberately juxtaposing ancient with modern, the sacred (Tibetan prayer flags, Kailash) with the profane (waterskiing), leisure and work, western wealth versus Third World poverty, the mechanical (a Williams Dieseljet) versus the organic and rustic (a boat made out of reeds), etc. etc. But that’s the whole point: such jarring juxtapositions make one think, and when thrown into the mental soup as tangible imagery, they seep down the layers of the mind, resurfacing months later in surprising and useful ways....:ylsmoke:

After all, waterskiing in Tibet is such a terrifically crazy idea.

Crazy, that is, until you’ve actually stood on some Tibetan beaches (I have), the sun is warm, the water seems pleasant and not too cold to swim, even without a wetsuit, there’s a huge expanse of bright blue stretching out in front of you, so much so that the beach you are standing on has some surf, and you think to yourself, “Hey, I wonder if I could waterski that?”

Tibetan lakes are big; really big. Sure, not as big as Lake Michigan or Lake Superior, but not mill-ponds either. For instance, Lake Tahoe is considered a big lake; certainly the biggest lake in California. But lake Tahoe is 496.2 km², the same size as Angpa Tso, 495 km[SUP]2[/SUP]; and only 20 % larger than Manasarovar, 410 km[SUP]2[/SUP].

Neither Angpa Tso nor Manasarovar are amongst the biggest lakes in Tibet. Tibetan saline lakes like Namtso and Qinghai are also high-altitude, respectively 4,718 m (15,479 ft) and 3,205 m (10,515 feet). But Namtso is 1,920 km[SUP]2[/SUP], while Qinghai is a whopping 4,317 km[SUP]2[/SUP] – see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namtso and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qinghai_Lake . The China Surf Report even claims that Namtso’s waves are “longboardable” – see https://www.igsta.com/media/863754881253922967_303242453 :








Sure, the world’s most famous lakes are vastly larger: Lake Nicaragua is 8,001 km[SUP]2 [/SUP], Lake Titicaca is 8,372 km², Lake Baikal is 31,722 km² , Lake Tanganyika is 32,893 km[SUP]2[/SUP], and Lake Victoria is 68,800 km²….. just to name a few more lakes that would be wonderful places to explore with a Hydrojet RIB!! But the Tibetan plateau is literally “peppered” with medium-to-large-sized lakes, which is all the more surprising because the plateau is such a dry, semi-desert landscape – see http://kekexili.typepad.com/life_on_the_tibetan_plate/2008/02/lakes-of-tibet.html and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lakes_of_the_Tibet_Autonomous_Region .

And yes, ever since setting foot on the beaches of my first big Tibetan lakes, I’ve been fantasizing about exploring and waterskiing them with a small RIB runabout.



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14. Williams Dieseljets


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Note that I used Williams Dieseljet RIBs in these images because it's easy to find lots of images of Williams RIBs online, including boats towing water-skiers. These are also hydro-jet RIBs, which as I've indicated before would be desirable, for instance, when exploring marshes on Lake Titicaca, or beaching a boat. Hydro-jet propulsion will also allow a rear dive-platform across the full width of the transom, something not possible with a more conventional outboard engine. But the TerraLiner's actual RIB would be made by Zodiac or a company of similar caliber, and would be very "compressible", as already discussed earlier in the thread. It will be interesting to see whether maximum compressibility proves compatible with having an inboard diesel engine. Yanmar's inboard diesel engines are very "flat", having a height of only 70 - 80 cm. The more powerful model, an 8-cylinder that can deliver as much as 370 HP, is simply longer, adding more cylinders to the length of a 6-cylinder. The bottoms of these engines are also deliberately "V" shaped, so that they can fit snuggly into the V-shaped hull of a boat. Although 370 HP might sound crazy for a RIB, tournament water-ski boats used just for water-skiing (as opposed to wake-boarding), will typically have engines in the 350 - 450 HP range. And they won't be any longer than the TerraLiner's RIB is projected to be.

Although we wouldn't want to put a big engine into the TerraLiner's RIB just for waterskiing, we might speculate that the coastal-exploration aspirations of the TerraLiner would be better served by a RIB with a bigger engine, one that can go faster, and that can push more powerfully against bigger waves. Ergo, design and construction by Zodiac, and not Williams. The superyacht tender market in which Williams has specialized does not seem to have a very demanding maritime context, even though Williams is a top-quality producer in its specific market niche -- see http://www.williamsjettenders.com , http://www.williamsjettenders.com/tenders/dieseljet/ , http://www.williamsjettenders.com/tenders/dieseljet/dieseljet-565/ , http://www.williamsjettenders.com/tenders/dieseljet/dieseljet-625/ , http://www.williamsjettenders.com/downloads , http://www.williamsjettenders.com/contentPDF/technicalDrawingsPDF/D505.pdf , and http://www.williamsjettenders.com/contentPDF/technicalDrawingsPDF/D565.pdf . The following is a YouTube gallery of the Williamas DieselJet range, sequenced from smallest to largest:






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And here are some more general videos about Williams tenders:






The Williams YouTube channel is at https://www.youtube.com/user/WilliamsTenders .

In effect, Williams has been constructing and selling ship-to-shore miniature deluxe ferries, boats designed to operate in mostly calm waters when a superyacht is anchored in a protected marina, or sheltered in a bay. And Williams then pairs its RIBs with engines suited to this particular mission profile. Whereas the mission-profile of the TerraLiner's Hydrojet RIB will be quite different: more of a coastal-open-ocean-travelling boat, one that can make good headway against potentially larger waves. We'll see if this is possible, given the space-contraints of where the RIB will have to be stored in the TOAD garage. A deeper-V rigid hull as per Zodiac's Hurricane series would be more desirable, but perhaps simply not feasible, given the space constraints.

I will write and post a good deal more about the TerraLiner's RIB and all the design considerations that it will have to meet, once we succeed with Libransser's project, creating a TerraLiner sub-category with individual threads devoted to particular topics. But safas, you raised the issue of water, and how this might affect the TerraLiner's drivetrain specifications if it were only driving only along supposedly "flat" coastal highways. As shown, even along coastlines flatness is not guaranteed. And the TerraLiner's watery ambitions are much broader than just ocean coastline.



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15. Not just farmland


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As for replacing fuel in the remote Tibetan locations pictured above? One would probably have to drive hundreds of km to find it, because all of these lakes are very remote.

On the other hand, the DNI would be terrific, even better than Spain's. Notice how Spain's scale only goes as high as 2200, whereas China's goes as high as 2800, largely to account for Tibet -- see http://solargis.info/doc/free-solar-radiation-maps-DNI :







So the TerraLiner's solar panels would veritably fry in Tibet's 5000 m altitude atmosphere, and again, this may be another place where running the generator might be completely unnecessary. Not that there would be many people around to complain, if one did run the generator. With freshwater available on tap, and loads of solar, one could glamp Tibet for years, using comparatively little diesel fuel, and only having to stock up on food.

In sum, please don't interpret "glamping on farmland" as meaning that the TerraLiner will always glamp on farmland. There will be many places where it will not, and yet where it will want to stay rooted for many months. Most of Tibet is not farmland. At best, it's range-land where nomads pass through with their herds. It would probably be hard to figure out who even to pay, if one were to glamp for months on any of these lakes.....:sombrero:

So hope that this posting series of a few desirable lake locations in the middle of mountains will have further clarified the TerraLiner's operational requirements.

All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[safas]

I will reply to your questions later. I'm barely following the discussion, often just skim through it and sometimes get lost. I need to put more effort to do it right.
But I found one interesting information.
http://www.sionpower.com/vehicles.html
They claim to be able to do a 54 kWh battery pack with a weight of 475 lbs. That's a notch over 250 Wh/kg, much better than Tesla thanks to a denser chemistry. The cells themselves are 350 Wh/kg.
There are no charge / discharge rates provided though.
http://www.sionpower.com/pdf/articles/Las Vegas 2005 PBFC.pdf shows a charge plot at 0.15C and discharge at 0.33C
http://www.sionpower.com/pdf/articles/PowerSources2004.pdf shows discharge at 3C
http://sionpower.com/pdf/articles/SionPowerECS.pdf claims "Charge in less than 3 hours"
So it allows to be charged at 0.33 C, maybe faster and discharged at 3C, maybe faster.
I believe I've seen their cell specs before, with currents included. Wayback machine doesn't help so far....
ADDED:
http://longtailpipe.com/2015/11/24/...al-batteries-will-give-us-200-mile-range-evs/ shows that in 2018 they plan to have fast-charge cells with 295 Wh/kg. No mention of what is 'fast'.
ADDED:
It's incredible, but SiIon doesn't provide a contact e-mail address...

 

[biotect]

There is also another reason. It may not be the primary one in city buses, but usually it is.
There is a huge difference between the peak and the average power.
You need a lot of it to accelerate, but much less to maintain speed. The difference is huge in the city, but it's big even on a highway.

BTW, 1300 HP is not a lot if you want serious use of regen braking with a 30 ton rig.
Though I wonder if you need a lot of regen breaking....

1. The vehicle will not do a lot of city driving. Regen is of marginal use on the highway. It matters in the mountains, but since you want to concentrate on coasts, mountains will be a small fraction of distance covered too.
2. The vehicle will not travel much. 2-4 weeks in place and then move on by 1000 km? That's 18000 km/year, moderate use, the owner can afford marginally higher fuel consumption. In fact, the extra engines may never pay for themselves.
Obviously, not having enough of electric brakes requires you to solve the downhill brake cooling issues though. Is 1300 HP enough? Likely yes, but it would be great if someone calculated that.

Hi safas,

Reply to my questions when you can. I have time on my hands right now, I am feeling inspired, and so I am producing a lot of stuff. Probably difficult to follow because I am bouncing around between at least three topics, discussing the drivetrain one minute, TerraLiner logistics and various aspects of camping on farmland the next, and TerraLiner security after that.


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1. Conceptual All-Over Sketching


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There is a kind of "method" to such apparent madness. Have you ever done any full-length portrait painting? Complete novices will begin with just one bit, say a hand, and they will try to paint the hand to a very high level of detail. A month will go by and they will have a super-detailed hand, and the rest of the canvas will still be untouched and bone white. This is a huge, profound mistake. Experts will instead try to paint "all over" all at the same time, even if that doesn't seem physically possible. They develop a way to bring the whole painting into being through repeated "all over" passes, each one progressively more detailed. They begin by covering the whole canvas very generally. Then they go over the whole canvas again, at a slightly less general level. And then again, a bit more detailed. And then again, more detailed yet.

The problem in painting is that everything affects everything else. If you have a bit of super-saturated, intense color in one place, it will make the color everywhere else in the painting look unsaturated -- pale or dark -- by comparison. If you ramp up the detail in another place, it will make everywhere else look undetailed. Good painters realize that they have no choice but develop all parts of the painting at the same time, even though this sounds physically impossible. It kind of is, but with practice one develops a method of making recursive passes that more or less approximate working on everything all at once. It's the same with all kinds of sketching. For instance, watch the following superb videos in which a designer gradually develops vehicle sketches. Notice how he constantly tries to work on everything in relation to everything else, gradually ramping up the level of detail everywhere, but always to the same level everywhere:






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Also see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4--VijXmaIk , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AV2dlNKg5M , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwpW8qB7BtE , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X5NYoTsdgY , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCnUUNFZRSc and https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCebhBYcDu0gOc4PflwaU80w . Here of course I chose vehicles that are all more curvilinear in appearance.....:sombrero:

Regardless of the medium, the basic principle is the same. Whether working in pencil, markers, watercolor, colored pencils, Photoshop, oil, or acrylics, it's important to stay "loose" and general and work things up gradually. Here are some more videos of truck sketches developed in various media:






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[video=youtube;bDKY_okeuRM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDKY_okeuRM&list=PLB8E3F125B4072115&index= 9[/video] [video=youtube;uM2BkXZCHGk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM2BkXZCHGk&list=PLB8E3F125B4072115&index= 11[/video]


And see the YouTube channels at https://www.youtube.com/user/scottrobertsondesign/videos?view=0&shelf_id=1&sort=dd and https://www.youtube.com/user/krassidimitrov2/videos .

I have been deliberately thinking of my TerraLiner conceptual design process as similar. In the video below about Ferren's Kiravan, the presenter begins with the suggestion that Ferren's team lost sight of the forest for the trees. They got so caught up with certain details, or certain engineering obsessions -- for instance, that the whole vehicle should able to rock crawl as a unit -- that they ended up with a useless boondoggle:






I am trying to avoid a similar fate for the TerraLiner. Everything affects everything else, so the design of such a vehicle must necessarily be a "holistic" process.

It is wonderful when the domino effect works in one's favor. For instance, drop-down decks with pergola awnings have a number of simultaneous virtues. They massively increase the amount of surface area available for solar cells. They shade the sides of the TerraLiner from the sun, minimizing solar heat gain. When folded up against the sides of the vehicle, they protect and hide the TerraLiner's large windows, shielding them from dust, and from attempted burglary. When retracted and flat against the sides of the TerraLiner, they will make the TerraLiner look like a 3-axle freight truck, pulling a drawbar trailer, thereby exploiting the principle of Vavilovian mimicry. Hence, they are key elements in the visual aspect of TerraLiner security. And when dropped down, the side decks will provide huge outdoor spaces for socializing.

But one only arrives at such "holistic" solutions by relentlessly pursuing a holistic design process, one in which one tries to keep as many balls in the air at the same time as possible. The videos above of concept sketching are the best possible visual metaphors for the process that I have been pursuing.

Sure, I know that conceptual design is one thing, whereas working visually to create a painting or a beautiful sketch is another. But too often designers produce vehicles that are mere "one hit wonders". They push just one aspect of vehicle design a bit further, which is OK, because when huge investments are involved for a big car company, it's best to be conservative. That way one will know whether the new idea works or not. However, the more that I've thought about the TerraLiner, the more it has seemed that by being courageous and pushing the envelope on all fronts simultaneously, completely new "system synergies" will emerge, and open up new possibilities. For instance, a 300 KW generator is not only important to power a serial hybrid drivetrain, but along with the 300 KW battery pack it opens up the possibility of "mostly silent" camping. And that's important operationally and logistically, because without it, a farmer might think twice about renting his land, because the TerraLiner would be too noisy.

So working more "holistically", and developing the TerraLiner conceptually in much the same way as I would a concept sketch or painting, has become a deliberate process. I have been constantly going back and forth across various concerns, structural, driveline, security, logistics, camping autonomy, etc., seeing how a development in one area might affect another. I am doing this for fun, and I have no deadline to meet anymore. My MFA thesis project was a funky design that my tutors loved, but would have been completely unworkable in the real world. I would never post it here, because it would just get laughed at, as it should. For instance, it certainly did not incorporate the idea of "Vavilovian mimicry", i.e. deliberately designing the exterior of the TerraLiner so that it looks like a slightly fashion-forward three-axle freight truck, pulling a drawbar trailer. So now that I'm doing a Ph.D and have quite a bit of free time on my hands, I can afford to continue "conceptual sketching" in a holistic way.



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2. Thanks for the excellent reference to Sion Batteries


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Many thanks for the lead on Sion batteries.

But I found one interesting information.
http://www.sionpower.com/vehicles.html
They claim to be able to do a 54 kWh battery pack with a weight of 475 lbs. That's a notch over 250 Wh/kg, much better than Tesla thanks to a denser chemistry. The cells themselves are 350 Wh/kg.
There are no charge / discharge rates provided though.
http://www.sionpower.com/pdf/articles/Las Vegas 2005 PBFC.pdf shows a charge plot at 0.15C and discharge at 0.33C
http://www.sionpower.com/pdf/articles/PowerSources2004.pdf shows discharge at 3C
http://sionpower.com/pdf/articles/SionPowerECS.pdf claims "Charge in less than 3 hours"
So it allows to be charged at 0.33 C, maybe faster and discharged at 3C, maybe faster.
I believe I've seen their cell specs before, with currents included. Wayback machine doesn't help so far....
ADDED:
http://longtailpipe.com/2015/11/24/...al-batteries-will-give-us-200-mile-range-evs/ shows that in 2018 they plan to have fast-charge cells with 295 Wh/kg. No mention of what is 'fast'.
ADDED:
It's incredible, but SiIon doesn't provide a contact e-mail address...

Perhaps from a design point of view this means we should plan for a 400 KW battery pack, circa 2020. The charge rate is a concern, because as you know, we have to keep the farmer happy. But 300 Wh/kg means that a 400 KW battery pack would weigh just 1,333 kg. It would weigh 170 kg less than the 300 KW Tesla battery pack that we discussed earlier, and yet would provide 25 % more electricity. Just as long as C could be brought as close as possible to 1 when charging. Even if such a battery pack were available only in 2022, and not 2020, it might be a good idea to design with it in mind, "in anticipation". A 300 KW Tesla battery pack that discharges and charges at 1 C, and that gets 200 Wh/kg seems a virtual inevitability by 2020. So maybe the best way forward would be to design with that as guaranteed, but with enough space to accommodate 400 KW Sion batteries by 2022.

Of course, even if C when charging were 1, it will take longer for a 300 KW generator to recharge 400 KW. But if recharging C were 1, the recharge time could still be kept to under two hours, even after we factor in all the inefficiencies. The number of days of absolute silence between 2-hour recharging periods will be important. If the time between generator runs could be 4 days when solar is poor, instead of 3 days, all the better. It's all about keeping the farmer -- and any other potential neighbors -- very happy, even though the TerraLiner will be a high-energy-usage vehicle when camping in hot climates, because of A/C.


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3. The Braking Potential of the TerraLiner TOAD


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I have already answered your fuel comment: the TerraLiner will sometimes glamp in places where there is no farmer, and no nearby gas staiion. And I've answered the mountain-driving issue: coastal highways often drive through mountainous terrain, and they go up and down, even if they also go through tunnels. So too, the TerraLiner will definitely want to visit high-altitude mountain lakes, because it's a "water glamper", and not just a "surf glamper".

But your 1300 HP question remains in the air.

A thought just occurred to me: the TerraLiner actually has 6 axles, not 3. There are 3 axles on the main vehicle, but at least another 2 and perhaps 3 axles on the TOAD garage trailer. Originally I thought of the trailer as having hydrostatic motors so it could be autonomously repositioned. But as thjakits pointed out, why not go all-electric, even with the trailer, too? The trailer will not have its own generator, but it could have an additional battery pack. And perhaps the main purpose of the trailer's electric motors would be to serve as brakes when descending inclines.

These might best be hub motors, because we will need the space running down the center of the trailer to accommodate the flattened RIB, in a V-shaped slot that's about 80 cm high, 1.5 m wide, and 5.5 to 6 m long. So straight axles across the width of the trailer might make a "RIB garage" located directly underneath the TOAD garage impossible. Or perhaps it's the other way around? Perhaps the complexity of independent suspension would block the possibility of such a RIB garage? Honestly, I have no idea, and it seems like things could go either way.

In the image of the independent suspension by AxleTech that Haf-E posted, I noticed that there's a really wonderful "V"-shape right in the center, of exactly the kind that the TerraLiner's RIB garage could exploit:







See posts #2347 and #2348 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=2009888#post2009888 . The bottom of the V-shaped notch seems to be only about 10 - 20 cm above the wheel centers. So if the wheel centers were at about 60 cm above grade when the TerraLiner is fully loaded (assuming the big Michelin XZL tires), then the bottom of the notch would be 80 cm above grade. So this would allow for a RIB garage that's 80 cm high, or thereabouts, underneath the floor of the TOAD garage, which would be 1.6 m above grade. Also remember that the suspension in the TOAD garage does not necessarily have to be the same as, or as sophisticated as, the suspension in the main vehicle. Sure, it needs to handle washboard. But progressive coil with air-bags might be enough. Perhaps no need for hydro-pneumatic suspension. The trailer will not be carrying any passengers, only the TOAD and various water toys.

Theoretically, 6 additional hub motors, if they were Wrightspeed 250 HP motors, could add an additional 1500 HP of braking power. The TerraLiner's combined electric motors, main vehicle + trailer, would then have much more power than the generators, about 2800 HP in total. Or, circa 2020, if 500 HP Tesla motors were available, it would have 3000 HP of potential regenerative braking power. Even if the TOAD garage trailer also had just three Tesla 500 HP motors instead of six Wrightspeed motors, combined braking power would still be 3000 HP. If the TOAD had two axles instead of three, then braking power would be 2500 HP. As we've agreed, in the world of electric hybrid vehicles lots of HP in the electric motors is a good thing. The HP is for braking, not propulsion. The only possible issue might be the size of the electric cable running from the main vehicle to the Trailer: it would have to be huge. Again, there would be no independent generator on the trailer, just a battery pack.

Would 3000 HP of potential braking power be necessary for a 32 ton TerraLiner, when descending extended inclines? I don't know how to do the math on this. There's also the issue of how to dissipate the energy generated. A 300 KW battery pack will only be able to absorb some of the energy. In a hot climate one could run the TerraLiner's air-conditioning units full blast, so that they chill the interior of the TerraLiner to a ridiculously high level, bringing the interior temperature down to 5 - 10 degrees Celsius, even though the Heat Index outside is 110 Fahrenheit. Once at the bottom of the incline, and once arrived at a new campsite, raising the interior temperature would be easy: just open all the windows and doors, to let 110 Heat Index air blow through.

In cold climates, the anti-snow heating elements on the roof could be turned on to the max, so that they are not just melting snow, but are also massively dissipating heat into the cold atmosphere. So getting rid of excess energy in either very hot or very cold climates might not be a problem. The biggest problem might arise in more moderate climates.

What do you think?

All best wishes,




Biotect

 

[back woods]

Built something kind of similar but 100x simpler. Expo truck with removable camper, huge weight capacity, truck has unlimited versatility and can pull multiple styles of trailers. Currently pull a 24ft gooseneck. Truck can run on biodiesel/blended fuel, goes 80mph and has 350hp. Ran by a single wire to keep it simple. Camper is removable with the push of a button and can be used as a base camp and open the truck up for unloaded travels. Not 4x4 but has an air locker in the rear that can get you out of a lot. Super easy to operate even for a novice. Add on options/modifications are pretty open ended. He is a build thread, may give you a few ideas.


http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/tow-...a.html#/forumsite/21027/topics/2115450?page=1

 

[biotect]

Hi back woods,

Many thanks for the link! Some truly impressive build-threads. Again, see http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/tow-rigs-trailers/2115450-version-3-0-a.html and http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/tow-rigs-trailers/1241698-1993-f700-build-thread.html (you didn't mention your earlier build-thread, which is now locked). In some ways your rig is a low-tech version of the Kiravan, except that your low-tech rig actually works.....:sombrero:

It started life as a lumber truck, with a hydraulic tilt-bed:









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And you transformed it into something completely different:









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1. Logistics?


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I looked through the whole thread, but I am still a little bit unclear about the logistics. The trailer in back is for horses, right? And you work with horses for a living?:







You mention that you've spent about a year in total living in this rig (?), but that you have been developing the format for three years? So when you were re-constructing the truck, you and your wife were renting a house or apartment?

The reason why I am asking these questions is because they matter. In a way, they matter much more than details about engines, electrics, etc. RVs are built for very specific purposes, and very specific lifestyles. An RV that is good for one purpose and one lifestyle, may not be good for a completely different lifestyle. It seems weird having to repeat this on an RV forum, because nothing could be more obvious. But the motorhome that a wealthy retired couple will want to buy and retire in, just will be fundamentally different from the kind of motorhome that someone on ExPo who is middle-aged will want, i.e. a mid-sized vehicle to zip around in, collecting 73 countries in 2 years, at a clip of one country every 10 days.

Your rig seems something altogether different again. It does seem built for a very specific purpose (traveling with horses?) and a very specific lifestyle (working with horses?). So it would be interesting to know what that is.....:ylsmoke:....Without knowing that, it is very difficult to evaluate your vehicle, or to compare it to other vehicles.

Before I go any further, my compliments to you, in so far as your rig has certainly passed the "WAF" test (what egn calls the "wife acceptance factor"), as well as the "TAF" test (the "toddler acceptance factor") :sombrero: :







So my biggest question is, why is the horse trailer important? Do you transport your own horses wherever you go, for work purposes? Or am I misreading the nature of the trailer in back? Is it a trailer for dogs instead? Is the whole arrangement designed so that you can easily go to events or competitions, where you will use your horses, and/or dogs? If you have time to reply to this question, please feel free to post at length about logistics. That's the part that interests me the most. Lots of pictures of horses and dogs would be nice, too; I love both. Whereas apart from the picture that I posted above, I didn't see any other photos of dogs or horses on your build threads; just your cat.

In effect, a tractor (your truck), seems to pull a gooseneck horse trailer, and your camper sits on the truck so that you can spend days with your horses at an event, and not have to rent a hotel room somewhere? Is that the basic idea?


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2. How useful is your truck on its own?


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Now I have some doubts about the utility of your truck as an exploration and grocery-fetching vehicle.

Like the Kiravan's tractor, your truck is not exactly small. In its current incarnation, you got rid of the tilting deck, and completely reformatted the truck so that the camper body lifts off on jacks, and the truck drives away, correct? You also seem to have massively lengthened the truck frame.

From this:








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To this:









You could not call your truck a TOAD or a "dinghy" (another term often used in the world of Class-A motorhoming), and your truck would not have the explorative capability of 4x4 Rubicon, G-wagen, or Landrover Discovery. It would not be able to drive into/near packed urban centers where open-air markets sell groceries in Second and Third-World countries. You wrote in the thread about how you and your wife use your truck to go into town to fetch groceries. But the towns that you are talking about must be American towns, with big, wide streets? At one point you posted a very useful YouTube video, which indicates the size of your truck when the camper is demounted:






And also see https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPYV4cezLgRIJVymUqQqBsw .

The problem here is that most towns in Europe and Asia were constructed before the advent of cars, with streets that are human-scale, or horse-scale. Even many of the older towns in Latin America will be like this, which is why a much smaller TOAD is preferred for a globally capable vehicle system. My personal complaint against the Kiravan is not merely that it's overly complicated in all the wrong ways, and can't seem to make it around the block for a few miles in Los Angeles. Rather, it's the very format of the Kiravan that I don't like. Any fifth-wheel arrangement will require that the tractor be large if the trailer behind it has a substantial size. Which means that the tractor can't have the same operational flexibility as a Jeep Rubicon TOAD, G-wagen, or Landrover Disco. The fifth-wheel format simply won't do what one needs it to do in Second World and Third World countries -- see post #1566 on this topic specifically, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1924009#post1924009 .

Think of it this way: the U.S. Marines favor using G-wagens in the Balkans, not Hummers -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interim_Fast_Attack_Vehicle , http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/974977_HMMWV_v__G_Wagen__for__mil_and__civ_.html , http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/78979-IFAV-USMC-290GDT-in-the-new-G-wagen-Magazine , http://www.mb-offroad.com , http://www.mb-offroad.com/wp-content/PDF/Magazin/Magazin-Archiv.pdf , http://www.trucktrend.com/cool-trucks/1005dp-us-marine-corps-g-wagen/ , http://olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_usmc_ifav.php , and http://www.army-technology.com/projects/mercedesgwagon/ . The Marines found that the Hummer is just too wide, and simply cannot negotiate narrow streets in small villages that were founded a thousand years ago. Perhaps one needs to live in Europe for a while to develop a feeling for this. But it's not just the European urban pattern which presents this problem. Most towns and cities throughout Eurasia (China, India, the Middle East) were founded before the United States even existed as a country. They long pre-date the automobile age, and were never designed for cars. They were designed for pedestrians, donkeys, or at best horse-drawn carriages. A globally usable grocery-fetching vehicle therefore needs to be small, the size of a G-wagen or Jeep Rubicon.

For further thoughts, see posts #1563 to #1567 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1924005#post1924005 and following, which explore all these points at great length, in relation to the Kiravan. It's all there, including the basic problem with the fifth-wheel format, and the challenge of fetching groceries in open-air markets where "under-souk" clearance will be minimal:







Note that watching the extended video about the Kiravan below, which includes interviews with Bran Ferren and his team, one soon realizes that the Kiravan was never intended as a genuine globe-travelling vehicle proposal to begin with:






Ferren makes a big show about how he and his team tried to think through the requirements of a globally-capable expedition vehicle system -- see http://on.aol.com/video/designing-a-family-friendly-extreme-expedition-vehicle-517751459 / . But the bottom line is, they did not. Instead, the Kirivan turned into a very complicated local "technology development" test-bed, nothing more. So it's important to not take the Kiravan too seriously. As a purported contribution to the debate about the ideal format for a large globally-capable motorhome, the Kiravan is a bit of a joke. As the video above makes clear, the Kiravan can't even travel a few miles in downtown Los Angeles without breaking down. But the Kiravan's flaws are much deeper than merely mechanical. The basic fifth-wheel format is a logistical problem; the visual appearance is a security problem; the basic format creates problems for interior space, and so on.



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In addition, I should mention that double-wheels at the back of your truck might be considered a mistake in the world of expedition vehicles. Single tires on all axles usually are preferred. Double tries won't be able to follow the single-wheel ruts on heavily travelled gravel roads in Second and Third World countries. So I am guessing that your rig has only been used in the United States, and was never designed to be used outside the United States? See Earthroamer's webpage on this topic, at http://earthroamer.com/xv-lt/driving/off-road/ :

"We..... convert the factory dual rear wheels (DRWs) to single rear wheels (SRWs) while maintaining the factory axle load ratings. Converting to SRWs eliminates the problems DRW vehicles have on trails with tracking poorly and getting flats when rocks become lodged in between the DRWs."


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The "Bloomer" super-long trailer that appears in your thread is towed by a truck that might work much better for exploration, because it's much smaller. But even still, the Bloomer's truck is much larger than a Jeep Rubicon or a G-wagen:









I've never seen anything quite like this in horse trailers: the accommodation and the horse trailer combined in a single, super-long unit!



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Now instead of horses or dogs, of course one could have the trailer be additional living space. But one then ends up with the same problem as the Kiravan: one's living area is not fused with the cab/tractor, so its size is diminished. One loses the space-efficient properties of fully integrated Class-A motorhome design. In the case of your rig perhaps this does not matter, because as you write in your thread, you and your wife spend most of your time outside, not inside. But you are a young couple, and what I am proposing is a completely different animal, intended for a completely different market. My starting point is a Class A motorhome of the kind that many elderly Americans now retire in, full-time. And because the TerraLiner is designed for (a) full-timing, and (b) slow travel in Second and Third-World countries, where paved pitches and hook-ups at RV parks will not be available, massive solar power comes into play, and the TerraLiner has to be designed for maximum power, water, and sewage autonomy.

Even still, many thanks for posting a link to your "low tech Kiravan". I wonder whether Bran Ferren and his team saw your rig before they decided to go down the gooseneck-hitch route? I pulled lots of images from your threads, because I simply don't trust other websites to still exist in 2 years' time. Mind you, "Pirate4x4" seems like a pretty good bet..... ...But I also like the formatting capabilities and overall appearance of ExPo. And having your images in this thread may yet prompt additional insights, although who knows what they may turn out to be. As Picasso once said, "Good artists try; great artists steal." By which he meant "Find inspiration in the work of past masters, and take things further". Suggestions like yours are always very welcome on this thread. The more ideas, especially those that seem very "out of the box", the better.

Also nice that your images appear in this thread close to where I just recently posted about horses and horse-boxes. Your rig is, in effect, a low-tech, do-it-yourself fifth-wheel horse-box. Or so it seems. Again, my compliments.....:bowdown:

All best wishes,



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Hi back woods,

Just did a search of your thread using the term "dogs", and turns out that your trailer is a dog kennel after all -- see http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/tow-rigs-trailers/2115450-version-3-0-a-27.html . And that you seem to specialize in either breeding or training birding dogs (or both), and then entering them into competitions:






Sorry that I didn't catch that earlier; it should have been obvious from the oddly low-rise height of your trailer, which is not nearly tall enough to accommodate horses?

So in effect you developed your rig to serve a very particular lifestyle, the lifestyle of someone whose living perhaps involves touring places where people want to buy well-bred, well-trained birding dogs?

All best wishes,



Biotect