TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

[campo]

Nice film EGN !
I'ts not so regular that these Topgear guy's make valable comparisons.
.
Can you give an example of a today truck engine that gives 180 g/kWh ?
I have seen different new Volvo's on the IAA with now 750 German HP.
Would they reach that 180 g/kWh
.
My small and modern Euro 5 EEV MAN 7 litres engine has only 200 g/kWh

View attachment Motordiagram 290pkE5EEV.pdf
.
Personally I do not think that 290PS is really so much for 10 metric Ton.
I (we are) am used to have more HP/kg in my car.
I would not have problems with 400PS in the TGM.
Only the fuel consumption hill up would not be funny anymore.
.
The main problem on the TGM driveline is not the horsepower but the
too slow gear changes in the Tipmatic gearbox.
Imagine that you could change so fast gears that you could
lose no couple when take a dune and change a gear in the middle.
.
In that case the +/- 40 km/h maximum speed for inserting the 6x6 is no problem anymore
That means you can drive in 6x2 everywhere and only when needed (pushbutton ?) the
hybrid 6x6 (electric or hydraulic) does its work under 40 km/h.
.
EGN I have one more question for you (specialist in 6x6 driving).
If the terraliner is a lightweigt 6x2+4 would it than be of an advantage to lift the last axle on the flat highway.
Or lift the middle axle on the highway you get better lineout because of loger wheelbase.
And of course on baed roads use the 3 axles for more comfort.
.
Regards Campo

 

[thjakits]

Hey ENG and all others with "Rigs",


....just to get some real-world numbers regardless of Truck and Size and Aerodynamics,

WHAT is your Highway Average Fuel Consumption - 75-90 km/h, average flat Highway - mpg (US) or L/100KM or Liters-tanked per km-done.....

Would be interesting to see! - Skoolies (US-Schoolbus Conversions) are doing anything from 6-14 mpg across the motley collection, with loads of different engines and transmissions and mostly NOT optimized for Highway cruising.....
[Biggest engines are around 300hp, normally 230-260hp, and max speeds are 70mph for activity buses - rest max out around 60-65mph, engines screaming]

BSF is all nice and well - to match it in real life can be quite challenging!


Campo:

a) First time I read some feedback about tip-tronic transmissions on trucks - I got away from trucking just about when the seasoned drivers received the first computer shifters (Volvo) - you might want to find out if you could exchange your electronic wonder with a good-old Eco-Split16 (or if you think that would be too many gears, an Eco-Split12) - NO idea about the price but there is TONS of them on the Used-market.

It shifts just like any other synchro trans, nice and slow, but you certainly can speed up gear changes - just need to learn to properly double clutch!!
[I know that this is NOT seen upon too well by the established professionals, but hey - it DOES WORK!]

IF you think about it, I would certainly go for the 16 - in my book you can have enough gears , but NEVER too many! [...wait - I know this from somewhere else.... ]


b) I like the lift-wheel idea!! Obviously that only works if the weights (Gross and axle) stay within legal limits with 4 wheels only on the ground.
Air-suspension is your friend for that!!

ENG:

"With a battery buffered serial hybrid there is no requirement to run the engine outside the best point. The battery will buffer excess power when running the engine in its sweet point. "

That's EXACTLY my point - but with less words!! :sombrero:

Eventually this will come along anyway - but for the time being: Imagine the looks/thoughts of other road-users, when you pull up on a intersection with your serial hybrid, come to a stop and just right there the battery goes to recharge-mode, your powerplant starts up and revs to charge-setting - looks like you are preparing for a drag race off the stop light!! :wings:

No worries Bio - we'll get this sorted in time!! "YFTET"


Cheers,

thjakits

 

[egn]

Here the values of some MAN engines.

The efficiency seems to be getting worse with higher emission standards.

Higher power doesn't cause higher fuel consumption automatically. If power is to low at the hill you have to run the engine at highest power rating with high rpm. This is far away from the best point, which is normally near the point of highest torque at lower rpm.

At sand dunes the torque converter of a KAT has an advantage, because it is kind of variable transmission. Some offroad trucks use automatic transmission with torque converter that allows concentration on driving.

A lift axle would certainly reduce fuel consumption, but the ride will probably not be as comfortable as with 3 axles on road, as the suspension has to be harder at same weight.

 

[thjakits]

...another question to those with experience:

For the Terraliner - would you go with solid/live axles or independent suspension - WHY?

What is your experience OFF-ROAD with your suspension?



Edit: BIO! ...just because I ran across this on another forum:

http://www.skoolie.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=467654&start=150

Check out the HUGE WINDOW on this bus (....as with many others in that category) - HUGE, but FLAT sections - from the outside you hardly perceive that they are ALL flat - NO curves!! Even the small side windows...!!
....A whole lot easier to deal with, if you are unfortunate enough to encounter trouble with it!

While you are already on it - run through this thread, to see how a SQUARISH box (bus) transforms into a rather smooth Greyhound Scenic-Cruiser inspired version - STILL big and square, but with cool roundings added.
Not implying you should take an old US-Schoolbus and transform it into Terraliner, but you want a fairly big machine - these guys (Skoolies) are maxing out livable space in their transformations.....
Also, this one is a RE (Rear Engine) version - if you do a Serial-Hybrid - you can place the engine-power unit ANYWHERE you like...no need to worry about alignment issues with the drive train.
[Merge this build with the "lemonhead"-link one (slide-out post) and you get a pretty good idea what you can do size-wise and a, initially, boxy design!]


Haf-E:

The electric motors you posted earlier (red-grey ones), are these vehicle (hybrid) specific ones or just a sample for e-motors with driveshaft U-joints in general?
If vehicle motors - ...got a link?



Cheers,

thjakits

 

[egn]

The lowest fuel consumption value I got was about 36 l/100km driving through the flat country of Hungary. The average is about 40 l/100km. On our russia trip we had about 43 l/100km. The highest value was on a distance of about 800 km through the Alps of about 57 l/100km. But here I drove mountain passes at maximum speed.

I have to look what the current value is when I fuel up next time.

 

[egn]

I have no experience with independent suspension offroad trucks. But what I can say is that there is a big difference between leave suspension and spring suspension. You can go much faster with spring suspension on bad roads.

 

[thjakits]

ENG:

"Truck: MAN KAT1 6x6 7t mil gl, 1979, Deutz 8 cyl, 12.8 l, 400 hp, air-cooled, 6-speed, torque converter, GVWR 42,300 lb, range 2000 mls
Cabin: FRP, 2 1/6" PU, 20x8.2x8.1 ft(lxwxh), elec. cook. (no LPG), 2x6000 W inverter, 900 Ah/24 V, alt 150A/28.8V, chrg 2x25 A/24 V, solar 2 kWp, diesel furnace, 164 gal tw, 93 gal gr/bl, sealand vacuum toilet"

....again - curiosity strikes!

"400 hp, air-cooled" - any idea if this engine would be susceptible to SHOCK-cooling?

E.G. - if for any reason you get a load of cold water (spray) sucked through the cooling blower - any worries about cracked cylinders??


thjakits

 

[egn]

I have never heard about any problem with cold water. A few month ago a friend with an 8x8 got stuck in a water hole. He did run the engine for some time without any problems.


Keep in mind that the cooling air is sucked in from the roof at 2.8 m height and the cooling fan is protected from direct water from below.

Air-cooled engines have problems when started below -20 C. The piston gets hot faster as the cylinder and may get stuck. Therefor you have to pre-heat the engine, or you have to stop the engines a few times until the engine reaches temperatures above 0 C.

 

[campo]

I have no experience with independent suspension offroad trucks. But what I can say is that there is a big difference between leave suspension and spring suspension. You can go much faster with spring suspension on bad roads.

With the exception of the Tatra I do not know standard heavy off-road trucks with independent suspension.
This is without straight axle and without portal axle.
You only find it on heavy special military vehicles.
Probably the reason is that it's difficult to carry weight.
If the Terraliner weight is only 16T / 6 wheels = 2,666 kg/wheel (let's say maximum 3000 kg)
Then I suppose it must be possible to adopt independent suspension per wheel.
The Tatra independent system is probably made for some 5.000 to 6,000 kg/ wheel
See it as innovative because it is not really common to use in heavy vehicles
And certainly a thing that lots of people would like to have.

 

[campo]

The lowest fuel consumption value I got was about 36 l/100km driving through the flat country of Hungary. The average is about 40 l/100km. On our russia trip we had about 43 l/100km. The highest value was on a distance of about 800 km through the Alps of about 57 l/100km. But here I drove mountain passes at maximum speed.

I have to look what the current value is when I fuel up next time.

The TGM 13290 BL (10.500 kg 4x4) over all consumption seems to be with the lowest because of the 12 gears Tipmatic in combination with the extreme long reduction.
Overall fuel consumption is now at 23,0 l/100 km over 20.000 km's.
The minimum was 19,1 litres/100 on highway at 89 km/h average over 900kms (only once)
Off road mix is around 28,0 litres with extremes above 50 and more in sand.
My consumption average seems to be 2 litres/100 km lower than identical TGM vehicles for identical speeds.

 

[thjakits]

"My consumption average seems to be 2 litres/100 km lower than identical TGM vehicles for identical speeds."

Then you got the "anticipating" technique down put! That is today where you as a driver still can make a (sometimes even HUGE) difference!


Independent Suspension - "See it as innovative because it is not really common to use in heavy vehicles"

It may be different and curious to see systems that are not common, but unless they IMPROVE in some way on the older, more "primitive" systems - I would not call it INNOVATION. Also, even if a new system is truly innovative, it still has to be manageable in the selected environment...

I'd rather stick with "know-quality" portal-axles (live axles) and play with different locating rod geometry and air-suspension possibilities ...

Citroen showed us a few hundred years ago (not really...) what can be done with hydro-pneumatic suspension!!
KINETIC SUSPENSION SYSTEMS also showed us what could be done with that in the '90s. I believe Tenneco bought them out and Chrysler wanted to use the system on a new range of Jeep vehicles, but at the end - I am afraid it all ended in a "drawer".

It seems Toyota/Lexus got their hands on it though!!

For the Terraliner it would be a very interesting technology to use on the suspension - You can lower it to scratch the Highway clean or raise to get over that bump to avoid "turteling" or you can "level/lean" into a hill to traverse it! Your imagination is the limit!
But I still think that live/straight axles will have the advantage over independent suspension on the Terraliner....
Ride-comfort can be achieved EASY with Air or Hydro-Pneumatic....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydropneumatic_suspension

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_Dynamic_Suspension_System

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_Suspension_Technology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenneco [Bio, just ask them to support your Terraliner design effort!!]

http://www.caranddriver.com/feature...tennecos-kinetic-suspension-explained-feature

http://inkor.kz/en/new/TENNECO_UNVEILS_THE_FUTURE_IN_SUSPENSION_SOLUTIONS

http://www.4wd1.com/Didjano-5.htm
[Quote: The Kinetic suspension design does not require computers, motors or pumps. Yet, it can readily provide ride-height adjustment and load-leveling, and can be adapted to include (if required) active or semi-active controls....]

http://www.tenneco.com/original_equipment/ride_control/
[Not much info on this one...]

http://www.tenneco.com/assets/1/7/Kinetic_Brochure.pdf

WATCH THIS!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GfLTWQyF4A
[Watch the Mitsubishi take off and LAND at 00:35 !! Also the Land-Rover at 01:52 demonstrates the possibilities quite impressively]

Part of the ability of this System is to maintain the wheel-weight near constant throughout suspension travel - conventional suspension will increase the load on a compressed side and lose load on the extending one....

[Bio! Watch the Unimog at 02:13!! WE all know that the Unimog is SPECIFICALLY a very flexy FLEX-FRAME - HOWEVER with the Tenneco-Kinetic system it hardly flexes the frame at all!! This could be a KEY-technology for you to have a LIGHT-WEIGHT non-flex frame! Generally a torsion-free/rigid frame also is HEAVY! With this system you do not need that rigidness, as the SUSPENSION takes care of it! ...even if you go Space Frame - you can concentrate on roll and crash integrity and not that much on suspension-induced rigidity requirements...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBfWk4rwJ6A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLF6n3nMwww

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHWwBk_6Y5Q

Cheers,

thjakits

 

[thjakits]

Suspension - Hydro-Pneumatics:

IF you would care to approach/investigate either one from the very opposite side of the vehicle spectrum - taking the Terraliner and Expedition Rigs as the HEAVY end - go to the site linked below to look at the LIGHT end!

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=Chalky-Part-9&A=111868

This fellow runs a website dealing with ALL KINDS of car/vehicle/engine-modifications and it is quite eye opening what one could/can do with simple tools and a little bit of brains!

WARNING: The site is addictive! You HAVE been warned!!


The specific human-powered vehicle in the above link is his fourth, I believe!
Previous Iterations range from coil-spring double-wishbone suspension, via air-suspension swing-arm, to the final air/hydro suspension solid axle version in the link above!

It is really inspiring and very educational to read through the various build-articles as you get an incredible insight into all the variables and considerations that need to be addressed in a suspension design, to get something that not only "works", but PERFORMS at the best possible!!

Don't get hung up on the human powered aspect or the tad-pole trike configuration (...once you look at these in detail - you might just need to design one to come along with the Terraliner Package!! ....and it might be harder to design an innovative one of these, than the TL!!)

EVERYTHING you learn in these build-articles you can apply fully to the Terraliner design questions, albeit the Terraliner suspension will look decidedly different....


http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=2936

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=111091

Even a at first thought rather orthodox (....or even old fashioned) idea like a leading semi-swing arm, becomes quite innovative once you get your head around to the intended purpose and resulting design..... http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=112282

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_109038/article.html
[This articles sums a lot about HPV-design - article pre-dates the build of the HPV in the first link]

[Never mind all his other articles about intake design, aerodynamic siting, etc.....]


thjakits

 

[thjakits]

NOW I am going to open a CAN OF WORMS!!

Bio - HOW about designing your Terraliner as a TITANIUM SPACE FRAME using 3D-printing?!!!

Have a look at this article:

http://www.3ders.org/articles/20130...st-3d-printed-titanium-fighter-component.html


I doubt that "various efficiencies" would be met yet for 3D-printing automobiles as a basic technique, but as a innovative idea it works any day!

Some problems arise from were to cut total efficiency in the design and go modular for repairabilty ["be able to change mayor assemblies on the rig" - you don't want to have to exchange the whole (space) frame because of some semi-serious damage..., but sections]

If you look at the present level of Titanium Construction Technology and 3d-Laser printing - you could make one light-weight TL-titanium Special Edition!


thjakits

eepwall:

 

[Maninga]

Been away from posting on this thread for a while, the talk about propulsion options has really got my mind running. I did come across a new truck of interest though. It's not completely flat floor, but here's another example of an integrated motorhome based on a MAN TGM truck chassis, complete with slides, motorbike storage and external decking.

Link to do some more reading about it
http://www.motoring.com.au/reviews/...radise/paradise-motor-homes-mansion-4x4-24919

Manufacturer
www.paradisemotorhomes.com.au

 

[campo]

"My consumption average seems to be 2 litres/100 km lower than identical TGM vehicles for identical speeds."

Then you got the "anticipating" technique down put! That is today where you as a driver still can make a (sometimes even HUGE) difference!
thjakits

I have been building the vehicle specialy for low fuel consumption.
The lower consumption is related to several factors.
The absolute first one is that my driveline makes 1500 rpm at 90 km/h where the others are driving at 1700 and 1800 rpm.
Other important parameter is the "stream line" what gives me a slightly better Cx value. (<height, <width, >roundings,>flat roof, >flat side skirts and underfloor)
Engine, tires and weight are similar so that can not make it.
.
The driver ? Maybe more important is to mention that I have Tipmatic 12 and the others the manual 8 gearbox.
The robotised 12Gearbox (MAN calls it Tipmatic) has no clutchpedal but software deciding about the change moments and not the driver.
And this software decides to change gears on the economical way. That is at low rpm.
Besides do not forget that the number of gears can be x2 through the terrain position.
.
Campo