TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

[thjakits]

The problem with the alternative drive and power systems isn't the manufacturers of the units, its convincing the road haulage industry to try it!
They want reliable cost effective trucks,and most companies wouldn't want to be the 'first' fleet user to buy a few,they'd rather wait for someone else to try them, to get all the bugs ironed out.
They cannot afford to risk the financial consequences if they didn't cope with the demands of long distance travel, remember most hauliers run them nearly 7 days a week,52 weeks a yr,so reliability and efficiency is paramount.
Of course,until you get a few on the rd,in real work situations,you won't know how good/bad they are.
Vicious circle.

Optimusprime!

I believe you are wrong!

Especially in the road haulage industry - there are always a few (....likely VERY few) that do the final road-testing for the developers, they will have conventional back-up for the units and financial support from the developers too - we just don't know who they are!

The same would have applied to the Hydro-Drive!

Quarry/Building-Site - trucking is possibly even more cut-throat than long-haulage....

Just the thought of multiple hydraulic systems on the truck would have shocked operators - so for sure someone was "supported" to try it!
This are all systems for the long-run in business so a year or two of clandestine road testing is just a small sacrifice, but incredibly valuable!

Unfortunately no way to proof it, but I bet you, the Bosch-System was run on the highway at least for some 12-18 months under real-world conditions, by a "everyday/average" operator at no cost to him, butfor bringing in extensive reports.
What did he gain? An edge for quite few month over his competition!

And that BEFORE the system ever saw the public

And most likely he will be first in line for the next big thing!



Cheers,

thjakits

 

[optimusprime]

The problem with the alternative drive and power systems isn't the manufacturers of the units, its convincing the road haulage industry to try it!
They want reliable cost effective trucks,and most companies wouldn't want to be the 'first' fleet user to buy a few,they'd rather wait for someone else to try them, to get all the bugs ironed out.
They cannot afford to risk the financial consequences if they didn't cope with the demands of long distance travel, remember most hauliers run them nearly 7 days a week,52 weeks a yr,so reliability and efficiency is paramount.
Of course,until you get a few on the rd,in real work situations,you won't know how good/bad they are.
Vicious circle.

Optimusprime!

I believe you are wrong!

Especially in the road haulage industry - there are always a few (....likely VERY few) that do the final road-testing for the developers, they will have conventional back-up for the units and financial support from the developers too - we just don't know who they are!

The same would have applied to the Hydro-Drive!

Quarry/Building-Site - trucking is possibly even more cut-throat than long-haulage....

Just the thought of multiple hydraulic systems on the truck would have shocked operators - so for sure someone was "supported" to try it!
This are all systems for the long-run in business so a year or two of clandestine road testing is just a small sacrifice, but incredibly valuable!

Unfortunately no way to proof it, but I bet you, the Bosch-System was run on the highway at least for some 12-18 months under real-world conditions, by a "everyday/average" operator at no cost to him, butfor bringing in extensive reports.
What did he gain? An edge for quite few month over his competition!

And that BEFORE the system ever saw the public

And most likely he will be first in line for the next big thing!



Cheers,

thjakits

I remain to be convinced! ( ner ner ner). ��

 

[optimusprime]

Okay - I am just going to hack up your post below....





...still need to come back with Slide-outs!

...and I DO have more concerns about the HUGE front windshield!! Not to hassle but serious considerations (...which, btw, I cannot find addressed in the Burstner Panorama - doc.)

Also, if you look at the future-Trucks at the Hannover IAA 2014 - there is definite tendency to SMALLER windshields.
Thoug I don't like the decidedly macho/agressive/sinister look approach - there would certainly be better design ways to take the aggression out and just leave the macho-power thing there - Hey Bio! ...give them a hand with that!!

Cheers,

thjakits

(The D's premier A!)

BTW: DA in the above article does NOT refer to District Legal Advice!

With regard to engine power, its not just BHP thats important, its Torque.
Whats the saying, bhp makes you fast,torque makes you quick?
Also you need to know where a particular engine makes its power, its no good having to rev the engine to get that power, and also it depends on the gearing, how many gears,what gear you need to be in to get the best out of it,dont get hung up on a 'figure'.... In the real world its just a number.

We got a few new trucks this yr at work, BHP is up on the old trucks they replaced, but displacement went down, the power was made up by engine management,and bigger turbos, but the drivers dont like them as they dont have the the low down slogging power of the lower bhp engines of the old trucks! ( 8 wheel DAF tipper trucks)
Again, torque rules the day.

You can never have to much power, but thats nothing without control!
Gearing is important,as well as has been stated,- drivetrain configuration.

 

[optimusprime]

Windscreens/sheilds .....

What about the modern coach design with huge front glass?
Those are massive and face the same design issues,albeit without have to be 'bad road capable'?

 

[Orlov]

Windscreens/sheilds .....

What about the modern coach design with huge front glass?
Those are massive and face the same design issues,albeit without have to be 'bad road capable'?

Coaches/buses drive close to civilization and don't have to wait weeks or months to have a 2,5 x 2,5m windshield shipped into a jungle when you ********** it against a tree.

Many armored vehicles have split windshield so only one piece needs to be changed when it breaks.
One can always fit steel bars and nets across the windshield of the expedition vehicle to spare it from damage, but you end up with something resembling a riot vehicle instead.

 

[egn]

BTW, the 6x6 got probably stuck in the water hole because of missing differential lock of front axle. That KAT1 normally have no differential lock, because the German army feared that this causes to many issues.

egn, if you are reading this, do you know what the maximum allowable size would be in Germany, for a vehicle towed by a motorhome?

Toads are normally not allowed in Germany and may be a lot of other countries in Europe. I have seen toads in EU only at two occasions, one during our Baltic trip,



and one in Croatia, driving home from Albania.



The first had a GB registration the second one NL.

All RVs are towing a platform trailer with the car loaded.

The maximum size of a vehicle combination would be 18.75 m. As far as I remember, 8x8 are not allowed to tow anything, except for special transports.

And egn, likewise, if you are reading this, do you think 140 kmh is at all necessary for a large motorhome? Should 120 kmh suffice, as suggested by thjakits?

In Europe 100 km/h is enough, because you are limited in most countries on highway to 80/90 km/h. On non-highway roads you are even limited in Germany to 60 km/h. And you don't really want to drive much faster on roads with a total with of <6 m with a vehicle that is up to 2.55 m wide.

But again, for me personally, air-tranportabiliy has never been a consideration. Air-transportabiilty is absolutely not a design objective for me. I have no interest whatsoever in air-tranportability.

A South-African friend, who visited Europe with his offroad truck and then drove back through Central Africa, was fairly happy to get a lift with a ILJUSCHIEN-II-76 from Pointe Noire to Lusaka across a border, not passable at this time with his vehicle. He has paid a few 1000 USD to get this lift, but was finally happy. Otherwise he would have stuck there for months.

 

[campo]

Coaches/buses drive close to civilization and don't have to wait weeks or months to have a 2,5 x 2,5m windshield shipped into a jungle when you ********** it against a tree.

Many armored vehicles have split windshield so only one piece needs to be changed when it breaks.
One can always fit steel bars and nets across the windshield of the expedition vehicle to spare it from damage, but you end up with something resembling a riot vehicle instead.

I do agree that a really big 1 piece windscreen is not compatible with the world tour vehicle.
There are probably many solutions to split this screen up in smaller parts.
Not only the windscreen is concerned in the spare part delivery problematic. A logistical solution for all the spare parts must be implemented.
This is easy when using standard parts from existing OEM trucks.

 

[campo]

E

The problem with the alternative drive and power systems isn't the manufacturers of the units, its convincing the road haulage industry to try it!
They want reliable cost effective trucks,and most companies wouldn't want to be the 'first' fleet user to buy a few,they'd rather wait for someone else to try them, to get all the bugs ironed out.
They cannot afford to risk the financial consequences if they didn't cope with the demands of long distance travel, remember most hauliers run them nearly 7 days a week,52weeks a yr,so reliability and efficiency is paramount.
Of course,until you get a few on the rd,in real work situations,you won't know how good/bad they are.
Viscious circle.

I think that the main reason why the manufacturers and users do not want this alternative drive and power systems
is the price. All new developpements cost money and form a risk for less return. That is what they do not like.

Campo

 

[campo]

Hi DA
OK I follow your remarks about the drivetrain for the Terraliner
We have to accept that Bio wants a 6x6 even if I have still some doubts that its an advantage.
.
We should ask EGN if a 9,5m long but leightweight 13 ton with 4x4 will have have more traction
than a heavier 16 ton in 6x6.
.
Coming back on my experience with figures and calculations.
I have 10.500 kg loaded on 4x4 and 7,20m long
If I copy this to 9,50m you get .13.850 kg in 4x4 loaded
If you add an driven axel it becomes probably 15.000 kg that’s the BIO loaded Terraliner
And with some extra features 16.000 kg.
.
I have 290 HP in use for 10.500 kg and am satisfied.
To get the same results BIO needs 442 HP for his 16.000 kg and some extra because of the 6x6.
So my idea to make the relatively light Terraliner with 500HP is not so bad.
.
Optimusprime is right that we have to mention also Torque but when you adapt hydrodrive or
electrical wheel engines than that is not a concern anymore. You’ll get more than sufficient !
.
The MAN hydrodrive today is programmed for
- Unsurfaced roads, such as country lanes and road works
- Slippery surfaces, such as sludge, ice and snow
- Route profiles with hilly topography
The hydrostatic front-axle drive can also be switched on using the rotary switch when the loaded vehicle is in motion.
It switches off automatically when the vehicle reaches a driving speed of approximately 30 km/h.
If the speed drops below 22 km/h, it is automatically switched back on.
When the MAN Hydrodrive® is active, an indicator lamp lights up in the driver's display.
.
Probably similar situation on the new Mercedes Arocs hydrodraulic auxilliary drive.
.
What with higher 6x6 speeds than 30 km/h as you need in the dunes or uphill ?
.
The most easy solution for the Terraliner would be a traditional 6x4 diesel propulsion with hydrodrive on the front
axle but that is not innovative at all but proven .
.
A little more innovative is to adapt on top of this solution the Bosch Hybrid recuperation in the coupling and take a smaller
engine compensated with the 48V e-engine alternator for the boost.
Further the rear axle on all electrical hybrid energy could be a good solution because 90% of the time in 6x2 is good enough.

 

[thjakits]

Hi all!

...damn! STILL no time to get to the Slide-outs!

(Camo - ....DO YOU have a Camo-thread? One where you show/introduce/detail your ride? Would love to see that one!)

Also, a specific question: Did you ever drive a big rig before you built your's? Commercially or Military or??
[Not implying anything, just curious - to hopefully get my bearings from where you come to your conclusions and suggestions....]

I still believe your power recommendations are over the top - besides that lot's of power is never dull!!

I remember my first excursions onto the European trucking routs was with a very early Volvo F12 Globetrotter, a rather old and run-out specimen, 2-axle truck with a 3-axle fully dually wheeled trailer (that's 12 tires on the trailer alone - of which 4 blew up on my very first trip up north! ....and another one on the truck!) - that rig had nominally 360hp, I don't know how many of these where actually still alive.
BUT even overloaded to 42-tons (DON'T tell anyone!!) I managed just fine to get through the Alps and hills of Europe - so with YOUR engine 290hp - Bio should be just fine all the way up to 20 ton's.

Remember, it is NOT easy to use little fuel with a big engine - that requires quite a bit of thinking, discipline and even training to achieve.....!

I CERTAINLY see the advantage of a 6x6 over a 4x4 going "seriously bad roads" or even off-road - no question there - it just does not match with the 90% mostly highway and 10% dirt-road, never off-road requirements/duty list for the Terraliner (....in my opinion).


Hydro-drive: Renault takes it to 40km/h - would that be enough for dunes? (I have NO idea about driving in dunes...)

In the Terraliner application, one might get even a little more lee-way towards speed as the hubs are probably all the same and built for the HEAVY-DUTY rigs.
As the size will fit the Terraliner suspension though, it will never get to the same power requirements - lighter loads, probably could tolerate higher speeds - 45/50kmh??

Otherwise - Terraliner better stay out of dunes!!

"A little more innovative is to adapt on top of this solution the Bosch Hybrid recuperation in the coupling and take a smaller
engine compensated with the 48V e-engine alternator for the boost.
Further the rear axle on all electrical hybrid energy could be a good solution because 90% of the time in 6x2 is good enough."

Agree - ....as suggested/discussed before...



ENG:

Quite a revelation that the Germans (..of all) would leave out the locker from the front-axles!! Doesn't make any sense at all....

Hell, that shouldn't even be an option to leave that locker out!!


Optimus:

It seems you are still in the middle of the commercial truck world!! I wonder, are your DAFs 8x8 or 8x4??
The first time I read about the MAN-hydrodrive it was a report from an Austrian operator that needed the 8x8s just to get in and out of gravel pits and construction sites - on the road it was just added drag and ballast. They changed to tractor trailer configuration with front-wheel hydros and later to trailer-hydros too. Efficiency over the 8x8s went up by over 18% or so? (I think....)
[Obviously they didn't change all at once, so they had DIRECT comparison available]

So, in the end it depends on the local needs too.

Torque - I know what you mean and have a 1st hand experience from the other end of the scale:
I had a Toyota 4Runner with a 3-liter turbo Diesel - I could roll on just about everywhere just with the clutch and NO accelerator.
After an unfortunate end to the 4Runner's life I replaced it with a VW-Amarok, despite having only a 2-liter engine, ALL the numbers LOOK better than the Toyota, hp, torque (and the respective rpm at which I get that). Still - it is about impossible to roll on without some riding the clutch and some accelerator.
A tuning chip helped a little, but still nowhere near the old 3-liter.
Engine braking is another thing - Letting the Toyota rev a little it would hold quite well downhill.
The VW has absolutely NO idea what engine braking means, it never heard off it and just doesn't do it!!
Though it uses 30% less fuel !!

Sorry for your driver's, they will just have to stir the trans and rev the engine!!
At the end, power is power, it all depends on how you transmit it to the wheels....
[The issue really being: WHAT are you used too? The anecdote above with the old Globetrotter - to go through the mountains I just had to use the "upper edge" of the powerband - upper end of the yellow arch! Compared to the 500hp from the Magnum later on - from the middle of the green arch to the upper third of the green arch - 1/2 split down and up we go on the same hill.....]

Optimus, I would like to be able to convince you, but I am too far of the track - where I am now, there is still 50's tech trucks around, slowly the Europeans show up though (Panama was a US enclave in this respect - South America though is a Volvo hot-bed, followed by Scania and then the rest....).
The last time I drove a truck was about 20 years ago - a 400hp MAN long-haul. However I did experience the change from open trucks to enforced speed-limit and the change of technique to tackle up-hills at max speed! Still was messing around with Tacho-discs and trying to fool the cops (I was lucky to have had a friend with a license but not actively driving!! Again, DON't tell anyone!!)

ENG:

Your friend was lucky to get the lift for a "few thousand" - probably a little side-kick for the pilots of the IL-76!!
On the other hand cheap change compared to the money spent waiting out for a few month!!

When it comes to transport heavy stuff by air, Russians are King!!

For a on the spot placement, the MI-26 helo will take 20-tons quite a distance (25 tons on very short hops), but at 16-25k$/hr (...depending where you are and where you want to go) + ferry and logistics costs, you better have a deep pocket for the privilege!
BUT it IS possible!! Airplane is cheaper, if runways are available and can take quite a bit more weight - up to 250 tons for the A-225.
For less ambitious moves you have a whole selection between various Antonov and Ilyushin products!

[Russians ROCK!!]


thjakits


...slide-outs - I PROMISE, eventually I get to it!

 

[Haf-E]

Just found an interesting spec sheet on a hybrid version of the Oshkosh HEMTT A3 8x8 transporter - it uses one electric motor per axle (4 total) and uses ultra-capacitors with a 470 HP diesel engine driving a 340kW generator - it appears to be a serial drive system.

Here is an excerpt:

---------------------

The Oshkosh Defense® HEMTT A3 Diesel-Electric, with
its off-road hauling capability and self-contained ability
to generate power, assures vital fuel, equipment and
supplies keep pace with forward units.

The HEMTT A3 offers extreme performance,
providing power, mobility and versatility to go
wherever it needs to assure efficient mission success.
It eliminates the need for additional trucks or trailers
to transport external equipment, and the ProPulse®
hybrid diesel-electric drive system provides
unmatched power to thunder over even the most
challenging terrain. It can climb a 60 percent grade
and can roll at 65 mph (105 km/h). Plus, it delivers
100 kW of clean, exportable military grade AC
power, enough to run a field hospital or airstrip.

------------------------------

http://oshkoshdefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/HEMTT_A3_SS_6-13-11.pdf

 

[egn]

Going up dunes you sometimes need a lot of speed and power per weight. Otherwise you will get stuck without power.

At our KAT meeting a fairly light 4x4 with a tuned 6x6 engine ran circles around high powered 8x8s with up to 1.100 hp. It ran up a steep sandhill at first attempt, where others needed several attempts, because they couldn't accelerate high enough on the available distance.

Sand dunes are very different to mud terrain, in which trucks with more axles have advantages. And on washboard and other roads longer vehicles with more axles and spring suspension are hard to beat regarding riding comfort. You can go much higher speed.

 

[Haf-E]

Wrightspeed has an electric drive for heavy trucks that uses a geared axle transmission with two motors that looks ideal for a expo-camper rear axle - but still leaves the front drive issue...

Their on-board generator is a microturbine. Serial power system - no mechanical connection of the micro-turbine to the wheels.

http://wrightspeed.com/products/the-route/

Max Continuous Power 125-250hp
(software limited, fully configurable)

Max Wheel Torque 18,000 ft-lbs
(for each drive axle, 9000 ft-lbs/wheel)

Max Regenerative Power 400hp
(0.3g braking below 42mph@ 12k lbs)

Max Speeds

First gear 16 mph
Second gear 26 mph
Third gear 46 mph
Fourth gear 72 mph

Battery Capacity 25kWh-39kWh
Vehicle Dynamics Control traction control in drive and regen, electronic differential, yaw stability
Generator 30-65kW microturbine
10,000 hour life at full power

Fuel System Options Liquid: diesel, biodiesel, Jet A
Gaseous: natural gas, propane, sour gas

Emissions CARB 2010 HDD, with no exhaust after-treatment
Generator Noise 65dbA at 10m, full power
Mounting all Wrightspeed components mount between chassis rails

Cooling Systems active cooling and heating
Motors: liquid
Inverter: liquid
Battery system: liquid

Grid Charging on-board, 10 kW single phase
100-250VAC
SAE J1772 compliant

Parking Brakes electrically actuated, redundant
(1 disc brake per rear wheel)

 

[thjakits]

Hey Haf-E,

Both hybrid systems you posted are NICE!!

Though I would bet the Wrightspeed could do better on economy by using a Turbodiesel as the power source for the generator.

Looking at their axle-configuration - 6x6 for Terraliner is easy, however the COMPLETE drive-pack, incl. inverters is quite a big pack!

The HEMTT is a great system too, but obviously the claimed efficiency gain is seen in a military context, by being able to lose the mobile field generator.
Just use the HEMTT-package!

I am sure - in a real attempt to build Terraliner, Oshkosh would be happy to provide a differently configured chassis: 6x6 and the power station in a different location - as it is - Bio is not going to be happy with the "Integrated" part.

Further more on the Wrightspeed - I think their drive-pack could be split into motors and the gear drive made as hub-gear-reductions, so you get an electric portal-axle!! With a custom made air-suspension your ground clearance and articulation could be quite impressive.


For the Terraliner - either of these 2 providers could be efficient enough.

What doesn't really convince me of the Wrightspeed (looks nice and all) - there are NO similar concepts from the top-tier providers (Bosch, etc...) in sight, ....yet. Usually European Transport Provider Industry is on the VERY forefront of development and if Bosch, Siemens, etc....have not even a "near future concept" on the Truck-shows, it's usually because economics are not there yet for the customer!

The Wrightspeed concept should be perfect for City and Near-city delivery (even if improving on economy by changing diesel for the turbine) - is there anything like it proposed in Europe?
So - I am just afraid that the published Wrightspeed numbers are just a little on the wild side of optimistic.

On HEMTT - not much to discuss, military has a complete different set of "efficiency" in mind than the long haul-transporter.
Still, for the Terraliner it might just cut it!


thjakits

 

[Haf-E]

I also think the Oshkosh and the Wrightspeed are interesting data points - although, as you pointed out, the performance claims should be treated as suspect.

The interesting part to me is the design of the Oshkosh HEMTT where they use one motor per axle - which is a simple solution to provide all wheel drive. There are several motors out there which are offered with a direct connection for a U-joint and driveshaft - and with three of them (one a 6x6) you should have enough power for hills and passing etc. The axles can include portal boxes and a differential lock - allowing better gearing match (such as with Unimog axles - 7.5 gear ratio) and allowing all of the motor's power to be delivered to one wheel when in a split traction situation. The motors could be frame mounted up high - no transfer case or transmissions required - all "off the shelf" components...

The wrightspeed design is interesting as having a 4 speed tranny does allow keeping the motor at a better power point and improves regenerative braking - which is valuable for a delivery vehicle but not necessarily for a overland type application. The additional expense and complexity of the multiple gearboxes and the associated special controllers to allow shifting probably isn't justified - using three motors (one per axle on a 6x6) is just much simpler and allows better redundancy / modularity - sort of the V8 approach - no replacement for displacement - but in this case more amps of motor...

I'd also go with a more typical diesel generator - while a microturbine is cool - I would want something I could at least troubleshoot myself... probably a pair of them actually...