TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

biotect

Designer
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unnamed2.jpg unnamed3.jpg wa2000-ira3.jpg
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P1000095.jpg 1619402-p1000097.jpg
Walther-WA-2000-competition.jpg ga034-walther-wa2000-ares.jpg



The last image is an advertisement for the BB replica version of the rifle, and it's also possible that some of the other images are of the replica, and not the real thing. The Walther 2000 has long since been surpassed by more advanced sniper rifles, but perhaps none as beautiful?






I only used the the Walther for about 4 years, because as mentioned, had an NDE experience at 19, so I could no longer touch it after that. But it sure was an incredible piece of weaponry. :sombrero:



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Now back to TerraLiner protection against such machines, and/or further discussion of hybrid drivetrains. :ylsmoke:

Except, once again, I don't think that the TerraLiner needs bullet-proof glass that can withstand the impact of a .50 high-caliber round fired from a sniper rifle. The TerraLiner does not need UL Level 10 bullet-proof glass. However, the TerraLiner would need bullet-proof glass that can withstand the impact of rounds shot by more ordinary rifles, and not just handguns. And this may mean multiple shots from an AK-47 during an attempted car-jacking; which would mean UL Level 8 bullet-proof glass. Currently Bayer only makes Markolon/Hygard MS-1250 that offers Level 6 protection, and it's also not clear whether such all-plastic bullet-proof glass could be provided in curved segments.

From my point of view, the ideal would be all-plastic, high-visibility, minimal "white-out" and "minimal spidering", UL Level 8 curved bullet-proof glass. So that's the kind of product worth researching further. But who knows, this may be a bit too "over the top", and it's possible that all-plastic, minimal white-out, UL Level 8 bullet-proof glass simply does not exist yet.

So another thing that needs to be researched further is the "Brazilian" level of bullet-proof protection purchased by the Brazilian middle-class for their cars. If they can get by with Level 3 protection, then perhaps the TerraLiner should be content with UL Level 6 protection, as provided by MS-1250 bullet-proof all-plastic windowing from Bayer. So Dupont's "Armura" specifications in particular need to be researched further, and the UL rating of the bullet-resistant windows that are included in the "Armura" package needs to be determined.

All best wishes,





Biotect
 
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biotect

Designer
..
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...speculating-on-batteries-power-price-versions predicts that Tesla will use cells with 343 Wh/kg by 2020. That would bring the pack to about 200 Wh/kg, which validates your guess.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/11353-Dimensions-of-battery-pack says that Tesla pack has very roughly 260 Wh/l.
http://totalbatteryconsulting.com/i...ort/Extract-from-the-Tesla-battery-report.pdf says that cells in it are 630 W/l.
Sounds reasonable.

If we use the prediction from the 1st link together with the current size, we arrive at roughly 337 Wh/l. However, the author also predicts packaging to get denser. So I'd guess a total of 350-400 Wh/l.
300 kWh would take 0.75-0.85 m^3. If this volume was spread evenly below the floor, it would raise it by roughly 3-3.5 cm. I guess that if you tried to push it this flat, your packaging would get less efficient. So prepare to have 1/3 of the floor raised by 10 cm.

Don't forget that battery needs cooling. The pack dissipates heat to a coolant fluid. You still need to move it to the atmosphere.
Don't forget that neither batteries nor electric engines have 100% efficiency. For charging, see:

https://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/charging-efficiency-0

According to Telsa, peak efficiency 92%, but users report 80% or less.

Then you have inverter. The best ones have peak efficiency of 99%. And engine. 98% peak again. But these are DC. Tesla chose AC because while it has lower peak efficiency, it's more efficient at low load. Which tells that the peaks are not achievable for Tesla. Please note however that Tesla cars have huge power-to-weight, so it runs on the low side more that a truck would.

Still, 92%*99%*98%=89%. That's an upper bound. 80%*97%*95%=74% and still looks a bit conservative to me.


Hi safas,

I would like to do another set of more realistic calculations for the ascent on the I-70 4-lane highway up to the Eisenhower Pass, and for the long 151 km sustained climb at 3 % grade up the Friendship highway from Nepal to Tibet. I will be using a drag coefficient of 0.41 (the coefficient of the MAN Skyliner), a surface area of 9.7 square meters, and I will be incorporating the idea of changing air-density because of increasing altitude. So too, I will assume a 300 KW diesel-electric generator (300 KW is the electric output), a 300 KW battery pack, and the 450 KW of electricity produced by the Boeing Dreamliner APS 5000 auxiliary power unit, if/when necessary.

However, in my earlier calculations I assumed a 10 % energy loss due to drivetrain inefficiency, namely, the inefficiency of the integrated gearboxes that the electric hub motors will need to have -- see http://www.wrightspeed.com/technology/ . In your excellent second post above you provided a nice breakdown of other kinds of electrical inefficiencies, due to the inverter, the batteries, the electric motors themselves, etc.

Perhaps there might be two slightly different inefficiency scenarios in the TerraLiner's drive-train (?):


(1) The Diesel generator produces a given amount of electrical power (say 300 KW), and then we have to deduct 2 % for the electric motors, + the gearbox inefficiency?

(2) The Battery provides electricity, but we have to deduct 20 %, and assume that what we actually have is a 240 KW battery pack, and not a 300 KW battery pack, because it's only 80 % efficient. When getting electricity from the battery pack we then have to deduct 1 % for the inverter, and 2 % for the electric motors, + the gearbox inefficiency?


For the gearbox inefficiency, in my earlier calculations I just arbitrarily guessed 10 %, based on, well, nothing. So what might be your more informed guess?

The basic issue comes down to this: the web-based power-calculator that I have been using has a space where one needs to insert a percentage figure for “mechanical transmission inefficiency" -- see http://buggies.builtforfun.co.uk/Calculator/index.html :


Mechanical Transmission Efficiency

Effy ???? %

The calculated power is the ideal mechanical power required at the wheels to drive the vehicle under the conditions you describe. The motor output power will need to be more than this - because some is lost in the mechanical transmission. If you specify a transmission efficiency (in %) a figure for motor output power will also be calculated.


ICE trucks typically lose something like 30 % of their engine power due to the mechanical inefficiency of their transmissions, or so I've been told. Therefore, to achieve a given desired power output "at the wheel" (so to speak), the engine itself needs to be specified as 30 % more powerful. Even in the traditional world of ICE engines, the inefficiency lost to the drivetrain is a controversial subject. Apparently in racing there is a "15 % inefficiency" rule, but a very detailed, well-written, well-informed, and insightful article suggests that the "15 % rule" is pure rubbish -- see http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/modp-1005-drivetrain-power-loss/ . Another webpage that is probably not to be trusted pegs the drivetrain loss as just 5.6 % -- see http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/transportation/consumer_tips/vehicle_energy_losses.html . A more empirical article that tested two cars, came up with figures for driveline inefficiency that varied from 17 % to almost 40 % -- see http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/transmission-drivetrain/ccrp-0311-drivetrain-power-loss/ . There's a really terrific thread in which some seemingly well-informed posters claim that modern car transmissions can lose as little as 10 %, while others who sound just as informed will say that 30 % is more nearly right -- see http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/36270/Overall-efficiency-of-gasoline-powered-cars . And that's just cars. I wonder where the guesstimate of 30 % lost to the transmission for trucks came from? I did some web-searching, but came up short.

In any case, what I am trying to determine is the same for an electric drivetrain. Between the surge of current provided by the diesel generator and/or the battery pack, and the final power output via the electric motors "at the wheel", how much energy do you think will be lost, due to various kinds of “inefficiencies”? What do you think would be a reasonable rough-ball-park figure to work with? Was my initial guesstimate of 10 % too high? Or too low, because an electric motor hub gear-box would be more inefficient than that?

In short, before I do the next set of more precise calculations, I would like to work with a better, more “educated” and “informed” guesstimate of the percentage for inefficiency that I need to plug into the web-calculator. This seems to be your specialty, so even just a guess by you, would be much better than anything that I could come up with!

No rush on this; please take all the time you need. But a "more informed" guess by you would be terrific.

By the way, the web-calculator that I've been using seems to be terrific, because it produces almost exactly the same results as Iain's equations -- again, see http://buggies.builtforfun.co.uk/Calculator/index.html . The web calculator's only major defect is that it does not allow one to input "headwind" as a figure separate from vehicle velocity. Iain's equations allow one to mathematically separate out the extra power needed because of headwind alone, and thereby arrive at an overall power figure that's more accurate, when headwind needs to be factored in.

All best wishes,




Biotect
 
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safas

Observer
Perhaps there might be two slightly different inefficiency scenarios in the TerraLiner’s drive-train (?):
Indeed.
(1) The Diesel generator produces a given amount of electrical power (say 300 KW), and then we have to deduct 2 % for the electric motors, + the gearbox inefficiency?
Cables+inverter+engine+gearbox.
I have no idea how much you'll lose on cables. 2% for the engine is low, that's for the most efficient engines in the most efficient load. The most efficient is peak load. If your electric engines are larger than ICE can drive, efficiency drops. And you want them to be large, so you can regen-brake well.

2) The Battery provides electricity, but we have to deduct 20 %, and assume that what we actually have is a 240 KW battery pack, and not a 300 KW battery pack, because it's only 80 % efficient. When getting electricity from the battery pack we then have to deduct 1 % for the inverter, and 2 % for the electric motors, + the gearbox inefficiency?
You can get 300 KW out of a fully charged 300 KW battery. Inefficiency means that you have to put more than 300 KW into it.
However, Li-ion charging is more complex than that.
1. The proper charging procedure is to CC-CV or constant-current constant-voltage.
This means that the charger charges with high current until the battery is mostly full. They tops it off with constant voltage (and dropping current). You may have it hard to top your battieries off like that in a truck, I don't know what do hybrid manufacturers do.
2. The faster you charge, the lower battery capacity is.
3. The faster you discharge, the less energy you get out.
Points 2 and 3 make large batteries desirable, 100 kW from 100 kWh battery will discharge it in 1 hour. This rate is called 1 C. 100 kW from 300 kWh battery is 0.33C, much better. Optimal charge and discharge rates vary across chemistries, see:
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion

So the 80% efficiency will probably show on both sides of 300 KW, you'll get more in and less out. Tesla says that their batteries actual capacity is 95% of the rated one. Maybe fast discharge is one of reasons? Maybe that's also one of reasons why Tesla claims 92% efficiency (they use the rated capacity) and users report less, at peak load they discharge the 70 kWh pack at over 8C. http://www.batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion says that NMC cells shouldn't exceed 2C. Though few users will exceed 2C (or 140 kW from the battery, some less at the wheels) regularly.
Anyway, assuming that you'll take 285 kWh from a 300 kWh-rated pack looks to be on the safe side.

I don't have information to guess gearbox inefficiency. But I have a question. Where do you want to have that gearbox? In each wheel? A complex setup... In some wheels would be a possible compomise.
 

biotect

Designer
Hi safas,

Well, I'm going by how Wrightspeeed seems to do it. They seem to have one gearbox associated with each motor and hence each wheel -- see https://www.wrightspeed.com/technology/ , https://www.wrightspeed.com/news/wr...-a-breakthrough-in-electric-drive-technology/ , https://www.wrightspeed.com/products/the-route-hd/ , and https://www.wrightspeed.com/products/the-route/ .

I focus on Wrightspeed because they seem to be the only company (apart from Oshkosh) that is developing diesel-electric "true hybrid" solutions for large trucks, as opposed to parallel hybrid solutions, or serial hybrid solutions for the much less demanding application of transit buses -- see http://www.theenergycollective.com/...electric-trucks-are-cutting-edge-truck-design , http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ounder-wants-electrify-commercial-trucks.html , http://ecomento.com/2015/12/08/wrightspeed-cuts-heavy-truck-fuel-consumption-by-23/ , and http://www.wired.com/2014/09/fedex-wrightspeed-diesel-ev-trucks/ and http://www.torquenews.com/397/wrigh...-drive-breakthrough-electric-drive-technology . As Wrightspeed indicates in the first article, it's pretty "lonely" in the market that it is pioneering; so far, Wrightspeed has no competitors, even though it actually makes more sense to electrify trucks than cars. The estimated 2.2 million commercial trucks in the United States burn 20 times as much fuel as passenger cars, and are the single biggest source of pollution and greenhouse emissions. So although Tesla is a good start, what's really wanted is a massive improvement in truck mpg. The two alternatives here are parallel and serial hybrid, and as already indicated earlier in the thread, mainly for design reasons and fail-safe redundancy reasons, I think the TerraLiner needs to be serial hybrid.

The only reasonably extended discussion of the Wrightspeed two-gear gearbox that I was able to find, is at https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=57932 . However, there is an absolutely superb discussion thread about the pros and cons of gearboxes when using electric motors at https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=47930&start=30 . I don't understand the half of it, but my impression is that using a direct drive motor without a gearbox at low speeds kind of abuses the motor, if it's not large enough. So the choice is between a smaller electric motor + gearbox, or a larger electric motor that has enough power and torque at slow speeds such that it won't get abused when used to direct drive. Tesla settled for the second alternative, the direct drive approach. I am guessing that Wrightspeed developed its two-speed "Geared Traction Drive" primarily because garbage trucks do so much starting and stopping, and are working primarily at such slow speeds. Apparently a gearbox is also important for some reason when there's a headwind, and when climbing hills. A direct-drive electric motor is not optimal when climbing hills, for reasons I don't understand.

Are you suggesting that some wheels should be driven directly by a (very big) electric motor, while others should have a gearbox? That not all electric motors would need a gearbox?

Honestly, after reading that thread, I got the impression that nobody really knows the answer to the question at this stage in history: "to gearbox or not to gearbox?". But I also got the impression that if a hub-motor's gearbox is well-designed, it can be very efficient, and the power loss will be minimal. Nothing like 10 %; more like 2 or 3 %. If you have time, read the thread, and let me know what you think. You'll understand it much better than me, because it's a hyper-technical thread, and it seems that most participants are engineers or electricians -- again, see https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=47930&start=30 .

Once more, the ultimate objective is to arrive at a more "justifiable" inefficiency number for the TerraLiner drive-train than the one that I have been working with. I've been plugging in 90 % in the web-calculator, but that was a purely and utterly arbitrary number. I more or less picked that number out of a hat.

All best wishes,



Biotect
 
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safas

Observer
Are you suggesting that some wheels should be driven directly by a (very big) electric motor, while others should have a gearbox? That not all electric motors would need a gearbox?
I forgot to reply to this part, so I do it now.
I meant using the same motor in all wheels, but torque-multiplier (i.e.) gearbox in only some (4?) of them. This would allow you to use gearboxless (and more efficient) wheels to power the Terraliner most of the time and add the geared ones to accelerate, speed uphill or crawl.
Though now I see in the thread that some manufacture a Prius-like gearbox. This should have a very good peak efficiency. Though curiously, even though technically it's a CVT, they control it to have just 2 speeds. Is that because of Toyota patents? Either way, something like that may be better than direct drive.
 
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biotect

Designer
Smesh-gear is instense -- http://www.smesh.eu/content/pdf/SmeshGearEngels.pdf . It claims no loss of energy whatsoever. Do you believe it? So what value should I enter for "drivetrain efficiency"? 3 % for the motor, 1 % for the wires, maybe 1 % for an inverter (necessary?), and say 1 % for Smesh Gear? Ergo, 6 % efficiency loss in total?

I know that anything you guess, safas, will still be just a guess; but it will an informed guess. So your guess will be better than mine! Just throw out a number and I'll use that. And if turns out that you're slightly off, no worries. We both know that at this stage in history, this stuff is all guesswork.

All best,


Biotect
 

safas

Observer
Smesh-gear is instense -- http://www.smesh.eu/content/pdf/SmeshGearEngels.pdf . It claims no loss of energy whatsoever. Do you believe it? So what value should I enter for "drivetrain efficiency"? 3 % for the motor, 1 % for the wires, maybe 1 % for an inverter (necessary?), and say 1 % for Smesh Gear? Ergo, 6 % efficiency loss in total?

I know that anything you guess, safas, will still be just a guess; but it will an informed guess. So your guess will be better than mine! Just throw out a number and I'll use that. And if turns out that you're slightly off, no worries. We both know that at this stage in history, this stuff is all guesswork.

All best,


Biotect
Inverter is necessary. I suggest that you ask on endless-sphere.com or diyelectriccar.com forum for efficiency calculations. You'll find there many people who know the stuff much better than I do.
Smesh can get practically no mechanical energy loss in direct drive and some real loss when you change ratio. This works only if you can lock the small wheels w/out using energy. In Prius they are held (and moved) by an auxiliary electric engine. If the lockup is purely by providing the torque on that engine, then there's some loss.
 

biotect

Designer
Thanks for the suggestion. "Endless Sphere" seems like the better bet; I posted my query there. I get the impression that a great deal of that forum is dedicated to electric bicycles and not cars, but we'll see if I can "catch" participants who might be more interested in larger electric vehicles.

All best wishes,


Biotect
 
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biotect

Designer
Hi Nick,

I researched Armura a bit more, using Google's Portuguese translation capability, because most of the info about Armura is available only on the Brazilian website.

Turns out that Armura has a very low, Brazilian NBR 15000 Level 1 classification rating -- see https://translate.google.co.uk/tran.../dpt/armura/dupont-armura-home.html&sandbox=1 and https://translate.googleusercontent....html&usg=ALkJrhgQmbYTopWnO_vXX4xyLt8uxIQliQ# . In practice, what this means is that Armura can only withstand attacks by the most commonly used Brazilian handguns -- see http://www.lipstickalley.com/showth...-Are-Paying-12-000-Per-Car-For-Bulletproofing! and http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/...or-the-middle-class-not-available-in-USA.html .

On the "Doubts" webpage, Armura writes -- see https://translate.googleusercontent...s.html&usg=ALkJrhg7f9PHLf8gQPmH51e1sSWPVbg58A :



12. What guarantees that a lighter shield supports shots of .38?


The DuPont ™ Armura® System is composed of what is most innovative in shielding technology, such as panels of Kevlar® and reinforced glass with high strength polymers.

The Kevlar® has been used for over 40 years and is recognized as the leader in quality in various areas to protect life. This aramid fiber invented by DuPont, then woven in the form of blankets, rolled and compacted, won ballistic properties that help save lives of thousands of military, police and rescue workers around the world. The Kevlar® is one of the materials used in current screening projects. The SentryGlas®, which is used in the intermediate layers of bulletproof glass, has proven to be the ultimate solution to the major flaw in shields, delamination. In addition, SentryGlas is a material having structural properties that confer resistance to great lengths, providing the necessary resistance to absorb the impact energy. The inner layer of reinforced glass, the Spallshield® is applied, a resilient blade capable of retaining the glass splinter upon impact.


Severe tests carried out by the army in Kevlar® panels and bulletproof glass, following the pattern set by the NBR 15000 - Level I, approved his compositions to provide protection to the vehicle occupants equipped with DuPont ™ System Armura® against guns shots and caliber pistols up to .38.




Armura it is also definitely subject to massive white-out and spidering:






As near as I can tell, Brazilian NBR 15000 Level 1 corresponds roughly to UL Level 2 -- see http://www.bcatextil.com.br/ingles/tabela06.swf :



tabela_1_ABNTb.jpg



Calibers and UL Levels.jpg



Level 1 is not the most popular level shielding in Brazil; actually, Level IIIa is, which is "effective against shots of pistols, revolvers and submachine guns. Corresponding to 90% of the market, while less than 10% opting for shielding I, which protects .22, .32 and .38" -- see https://translate.google.it/transla...sil-e-o-mercado-com-maior-numero-de-blindados , https://translate.google.it/transla...-pais-com-maior-numero-de-blindados-do-mundo/ , https://translate.google.it/transla....br/materia/blindados-niveis-protecao-880501/



11130438b.jpg



So much for Armura. Apparently the optimum is "Level III" in the Brazilian system, the only level that truly protects against rifles, and which probably roughly corresponds to Level 8 in the UL system. "Level IV" in the Brazilian system seems to roughly correspond to Level 9 in the UL system.


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biotect

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AK-47's are now so admired in Brazil's slums, that a new form of "gangsta funk" music has emerged, in which some songs celebrate the rifle -- see http://articles.philly.com/2006-06-24/news/25402230_1_funk-dangerous-slums-gangs . During the 2014 World Cup, some fans fired AK-47's into the air to celebrate whenever Brazil got a goal: http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/th...ebrate-goal-hail-gunfire-blog-entry-1.1792459 , http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...inals-fire-AK47-rifles-to-celebrate-goal.html , http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...g-members-fire-AK47-after-football-match.html , http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/5/10/drug-kingpin-soccerleagueinbrazilfavela.html , and https://lsecities.net/media/objects/articles/in-the-violent-favelas-of-brazil/en-gb/ :





src.adapt.960.high.brazil_soccer_prayer2.1406565040845.jpg brazil.jpg



The number of men in the above video who are wielding large rifles while watching a soccer match is truly astonishing. Here are some explanatory videos explaining the AK-47's success, even though the design is now about 50 years old:



[video=dailymotion;x24mbxs]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x24mbxs_m16-vs-ak47-which-one-is-better-documentary_tech[/video]



Yes, I've handled AK-47s too. Before communism collapsed, Dad had a monopoly importing them for the "collectors" market. They'd been modified to function only as semi-automatics, but apparently a good gun mechanic can reverse that quite easily.

On the other hand, the likelihood of assault by a rifle in a Brazilian carjacking may be small. There is a superb article in the Huffington post at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-muggah/brazils-gun-violence-prob_b_7831298.html, which argues that Brazil's gun problem is very much "made in Brazil". And it's largely a made-in-Brazil-handgun problem. In 2012, revolvers and pistols were responsible for 42,416 of Brazil's 56,337 murders (of the remainder, many murders were committed using knives), and about 90 % of all gun-related incidents in Sao Paolo and Rio involve handguns. In the first five months of 2015, police in Rio collected 3,989 firearms, of which roughly 80 % were handguns, and just 223, or 5 %, were classified as semi-automatics and machine guns. But that still means that 20 % were "more than" just handguns, and that 15 % were probably shotguns, more ordinary kinds of rifles, etc.

Politicians and the media like to blame gun-trafficking from neighboring countries as the source of Brazil's illegal firearms, and they like to exaggerate the use of foreign-made semi-automatics and machine-guns like AK-47s, which then appear in dramatic photos that attract readership -- see https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...ruta-de-trafico-de-paraguay-a-rio&prev=search , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...uzis-da-venezuela-para-o-rio.html&prev=search , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...rafico-e-desafia-a-seguranca.html&prev=search , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...+ESTAO+NA+BOLIVIA+E+PARAGUAI.html&prev=search , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...cas-manjam-muito-de-redes-sociais&prev=search , https://translate.google.co.uk/tran....br/brasil2/trafico-de-armas.htm&prev=search: , https://translate.googleusercontent....shtml&usg=ALkJrhipIFLc_2o42j0pNHm-NGzHjuwCRw , http://translate.googleusercontent.....shtml&usg=ALkJrhjwu75zgqx8kprgcNlnl5DuQz95EA , https://translate.googleusercontent...brasil&usg=ALkJrhh4kddBjJgog5MsV9uWb_d-sU8mvw , and https://web.archive.org/web/2011082...lice-say-sea-is-new-arms-trafficking-frontier :



brazil_arms_trafficking.jpg 12280121.jpg 09-info-negocio-letal.jpg
emy0pbi2jmqcjjtpvza1zz17p.jpg 1477943_1376860502562352_45830808_n.jpg 1148904_369252066536793_240123600_n.jpg
14029255b.jpg



Whereas it is less often observed that Brazil most definitely has its own, home-grown firearms industry. Of the 8,622 firearms seized by Rio's military police in 2014, 68 % were manufactured in Brazil, by Brazilian companies such as Taurus, Rossi, Imbel, and CBC -- see http://www.imbel.gov.br , http://www.taurus.com.br/pt , http://www.rossi.com.br/site/index.php , and http://intl.cbc.com.br . But this still means that roughly 30 % were manufactured abroad. Another article claims that approximately 20 % of guns seized in Brazil are foreign-manufactured -- see http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Amer...razil-s-new-arms-trafficking-frontier-The-sea . No doubt the most lethal semi-automatics and machine-guns are largely of foreign origin.

What to make of all this? Well, Level 1 protection (Brazilian definition) or Level 2 protection (UL classification) as per Dupont Armura is probably not enough. Brazil's most popular Level IIIa protection seems to correspond roughly to UL Level 6, which is the level of protection afforded by Makrolon-Hygard all-plastic MS-1250 bullet-proof glass. But even if semi-automatics and machine-guns represent only 5 % of the firearms seized by Brazil's police, if 20 % of all firearms seized are "more than" just handguns, and if 20 % are rifles or shotguns of some kind, that's a significant percentage to worry about. So again the conclusion seems to be that UL Level 8 would be preferred, if an all-plastic, white-out and spidering resistant, curved form of bullet-proof glass could be found. But UL Level 6 would probably be adequate.


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biotect

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Here is Texas Armoring's considered judgement regarding Brazil, and similar countries:





What level of protection do I need?

The level of armor recommended will depend greatly on the location of use and the types of threats that are present (for high-risk clients, we almost always recommend a professional threat assessment by trained security experts). For example, we recommend our T6 protection level to most of our clients in West Africa, Mexico, Russia, and South America because high-powered rifles are the predominant weapons used by criminals in each of those regions. Conversely, in the U.S. and in parts of Asia we typically recommend T4 protection since most criminal acts are carried out with small arms or pistols. The choice is ultimately up to each individual client, but our sales staff will gladly make a recommendation based on experience. (View our protection levels chart)




Can your armor defeat a .50 cal [rifle] bullet?

Unfortunately, .50 cal protection is not easy to achieve when retrofitting a passenger vehicle due to weight and size constraints. While possible, it's not readily offered. For clients truly in need of .50 cal protection, we likely would offer a military-style vehicle modified for passenger use. Those interested in this product line are required to put down a sizeable good faith deposit and must have no budget/time restraints for our engineers to even consider the project.





Texas Armoring provides a useful ballistic chart of its own -- see http://www.texasarmoring.com/armoring_levels.html#ballistics . T6 roughly corresponds to UL Level 8, which is what Texas Armoring recommends for South America. T7 roughly corresponds to UL Level 9, while T8 roughly corresponds to UL Level 10:



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To round things out, here are some videos of Brazilian carjackings. The first video below is a bit of a "snuff" video, in which a would-be Brazilian motorcycle thief gets shot by the police -- see https://translate.google.it/transla...com-maior-numero-de-carros-blindados-planeta/ . The second and third are carjackings that have unhappy endings, while the fourth, fifth, and sixth have happy endings, perhaps because the cars involved had no fear of the guns being used, no doubt because they were sufficiently armored:






Brazil now has the largest fleet of armored cars in the world, and "Impactoblindados" claims that it is the market leader, and handles the highest volume at the more premium end of the market -- see https://translate.google.it/translate?hl=it&sl=pt&tl=en&u=http://www.impactoblindados.com/ and https://translate.google.it/transla...cado-com-maior-numero-de-blindados/15928.html .

Here are some interesting tips on how temperature and humidity can affect armoring -- see https://translate.google.it/transla...g/2014/02/brasil120-mil-carros-blindados.html:



To last longer



  • Never close the door with the window open because there is a risk of the glass crack.
  • Do not leave the doors open longer than the time required to enter or exit. Excess weight can misalign them.
  • Never walk with an open glass dirt road. The shake can crack it.
  • Use only a soft cloth, water and mild soap to clean the inside of the glasses. The inner film may scratch or come loose with abrasives or solvents. Also be careful with rings or children with toys.
  • Escape from crossing flooded streets. If the car gets stuck in the water, the ballistic blanket can be affected by humidity, which reduces their power protection.
  • Suction cups of GPS devices polycarbonate damage the inside of the glass, which can compromise the effectiveness of protection.
  • Sudden temperature variations should also be avoided, there is a risk of occurring cracks in the armor and exposure to intense heat may cause delamination of the glass.




The following video does not excuse the level of violence in Brazil, but perhaps provides some explanation. South America imported 10 times as many slaves from Africa as did North America. Brazil is far more racially mixed than the United States, because the original colonists were largely male, and took Black and Indian female slaves as their "wives", often recognizing the consequent children as legitimate heirs. But even still, as per all North and South American colonial societies, in Brazil there remains a normative color scale, in which White is the "ideal", and Indian or Black is the opposite. Even the rise to power and election of presidents with largely Indian, Black, or mixed ancestry, like Evo Morales in Bolivia, Vicente Guerrero in the 19th century in Mexico, Hugo Chavez in Venezuela, or Lula da Silva in Brazil, hasn't seemed to change things much (albeit things did improve for a while under Lula in Brazil -- see http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-12068515 ). Just as the GINI coefficient in the United States -- a hard measure of economic inequality -- has continued it's 45 year slide despite the election of Obama. It began worsening around 1970 -- see http://www.the-crises.com/income-inequality-in-the-us-1/:






All best wishes,






Biotect
 
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biotect

Designer
The solution:




Hi Luke,

It's called the "Blaster", and was first sold in South Africa in the late 1990's -- see



[video=youtube;fDrzMGdYWZc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDrzMGdYWZc [/video] [video=youtube;LQbHnLSasfQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQbHnLSasfQ [/video]



The "Blaster" never became illegal in South Africa, but it did not prove very popular, even though South Africa has the highest (or one of the highest) rates of car-jacking per-capita in the world -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaster_(flamethrower) , http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/232777.stm , http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/africa/9812/11/flame.thrower.car/ , http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB91601019351200500 , http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/CLJ-Flamethrower-Is-Hottest-Defense-Against-2948892.php , and http://blog.beforward.jp/car-review/remember-bmw-blaster-south-africas-flamethrowing-car.html .



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1. Designing as a Buddhist pacifist, for merely "passive" protection


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As far as I know, antipersonnel flame-throwers are illegal in most countries. Reputable companies like Texas Armoring refuse to install such devices:



Can you install guns, tear gas, flame throwers,etc?

We are in the business of saving lives and as such we do not offer potentially lethal options. Tear gas (along with other similar chemicals and weapons) has been placed under strict government regulation and is not offered as an option on our vehicles.




See http://www.texasarmoring.com/texas_armoring_faq.html .

Like Texas Armoring, I would want the TerraLiner to have only "passive" self-defense protection, and such protection would only be needed when the TerraLiner is underway, traveling from campsite A on protected farmland, to campsite B on protected farmland. Remember, although I know a great deal about guns, and did a lot of hunting when I was a kid, because of an NDE (Near Death Experience) I am now very much a hippie-dippie idealist and pacifist -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience . I am the kind of idealistic globalist who unashamedly loves the Coke song:






See posts #2228 and # 2229 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1990958#post1990958 . So the very last thing I would want the TerraLiner to do is blast mixed-race or Black car-jackers with a flamethrower!! I am also a Euro-socialist (as per Germany's SPD), and I am not an American neo-Victorian Republican -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_of_Germany . So I do not blame the poor for their poverty, and I tend to see a very strong sociological link between poverty, economic inequality, and crime.

The idea behind camping on farmland is that it provides inherent security. It is a "sociological" solution to the problem of TerraLiner security, as opposed to a technological solution, or a "burn the bastards" solution. Brazil is full of organic farms that supplement their incomes by also functioning as eco-lodges or eco-camps. And of course Brazil is full of lots of more regular farms, too. I am reasonably convinced that a vehicle like the TerraLiner, which will have the ability to drive into and out of any plot of land that a farmer is willing to rent, could find plenty of security, protection, and relative invisibility simply by seeking out farms to camp on. The TerraLiner will be relatively autonomous from a sewage, power, and water point of view, it won't need the traditional hook-ups provided by paved pitches in RV parks, so camping on farmland will be a real option. Aesthetically speaking it will also be a vastly superior option, because RV parks do not strike me as all that attractive. No RV brochures ever depict motorhomes camping beside hundreds of other motorhomes, even though that's the reality of the Class-A RV lifestyle. Rather, RV brochures depict motorhomes in the middle of nowhere, camping "in nature" with no other motorhome in sight. As such, RV brochures are selling just a fantasy, and they are visually lying. Conventional RVs do not have this capability, because they are not autonomous enough, and they do not have the frames or the wheels necessary to drive into and out of farmland.



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2. Should the TerraLiner's exterior be deliberately designed to look ugly, or threatening?


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There is also another possible "solution" to the problem of TerraLiner security, and that's to make the TerraLiner as ugly as possible on the outside, so that even when camping, it looks like a garbage truck that nobody would want to attack. This is more or less the de-facto solution that ActionMobil, UniCat, etc. have arrived at. Their expedition motorhomes look like ugly garbage trucks, and perhaps deliberately so. They probably have no interest in developing more aesthetically and functionally satisfying vehicle exteriors, i.e. vehicles with large drop-down decks like the Paradise Motorhome, decks that when unfolded while camping will reveal large windows. Because then, as egn has suggested, the vehicle might become a more attractive target.

For a designer this is of course a complete non-starter. Imagine being an architect, and clients asking one to design the exterior of their house to be as ugly as possible, so that nobody will want to burglar it. The whole design exercise becomes absurd and pointless, because no designer wants to deliberately design something to look ugly. But in effect that's what a number of thread participants have been suggesting that I should do as regards the exterior of the TerraLiner.

For instance, one thread participant suggested that the TerraLiner should take as its model FPB boats, which have exteriors (it is claimed) that resemble military-style PT boats -- see http://www.setsail.com , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT_boat , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTuyA84QXKs , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx3i9lQnQlU , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtMJFROT2zk :



FPB-97-1-Iceberg109.jpg FPB-97-1-Iceberg101-3.jpg Blunden_3_-051_83.jpg
FPB-64-2-Kayak-Racks-305.jpg FB-831-BahamasVA1-100.jpg Magdelena-Svalbard-366-Edit.jpg
FPB-Saloon-Overall_1.jpg FPB-64-6-Grey-Wolf-Details-102.jpg FPB-Owners-suite_6.jpg
FPB-64-Iron-Lady-Fatu-Hiva-1.jpg



Actually, these boats have so much glass, and they are so sleek and elegant, that claiming that potential attackers will leave them alone because they look military strikes me as total nonsense. Sure, they don't have the typical appearance of a luxury power yacht, with a hull painted white, teak decks, etc. But they don't exactly look military either, especially the more recent models, which are becoming larger, more luxurious, and even more elegantly designed on the outside as well as the inside. I think FPB boats are really quite beautiful, and if I were a coastal pirate, their appearance alone would not deter me from attacking them. They look luxurious and beautiful almost because of the minimalistic elegance of their unpainted aluminum hulls; their very sleek, rakish lines; their windows canted back to disperse water quickly, etc. They look like the large-power-yacht equivalent of Ferraris. So as a pirate their appearance would make me want to attack them more, not less.....:sombrero:

If anything, learning about FPB boats and surfing its website extensively (I've been all over it for the last year), has inspired me to be more aesthetically courageous in my design thinking, not less. FPB boats really thought through the program, the specific application. They began with a blank slate, throwing out all prior expectations as to what a world-travellling power yacht "should" look like. The final design they came up with looks vaguely like a PT boat, but more like a weird cross between a PT boat, a fishing trawler, and a sport-fishing vessel of the kind that has large outriggers for trolling, a flybridge, and often a conning tower reached by a ladder -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT_boat , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishing_trawler , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_fishing_boat , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_bridge , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conning_tower , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-HkGr916xY , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z9IoQu-zOo , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD9sIBLF8h0 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaMQXHF0LVA , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqxAcPh8_hE , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0niwFfwgzsQ .

The final design of the FPB is incredibly original as well as highly practical, in the sense that it addresses the requirements of the stated program perfectly. It is also stunning, a Ferrari on water, and much more beautiful than most of the power yachts that I've seen. But would coastal pirates mis-identify an FPB boat as a military threat? Somehow, I just don't think so.....:ylsmoke:

There is another important point to be made here. In the past, some thread participants have subscribed to the macho-masculine illusion that if a vehicle looks threatening and militaresque, then this alone will somehow deter potential attackers. The idea here is that if the exterior of the vehicle is rectilinear, very "butch" and "macho", then it will function visually as a threat-display. It will somehow say to would-be burglars or car-jackers, "Beware!!" The reasoning here is very masculine, something to the effect that "the best defense is a good offense". Make the first threat-display in a male pissing contest, and car-jackers will leave one's vehicle alone. But honestly, anyone who attacks a car, truck, or motorhome with a gun, is so desperate and aggressive, that what a vehicle looks like will probably make no difference to them.

A very macho-looking vehicle exterior might give the owners a false sense of safety, security, and invulnerability. But I figure that the psychological effect on potential car-jackers will be nil.

Think of it this way. Do bus-designers go out of their way to make bus-exteriors look ugly? Even in Latin America? Just like European roads, South American roads are full of beautiful long-distance buses designed by MAN, Setra, Volvo, Scania, and home-grown Latin American manufacturers:






Those who designed such buses did not think, "Hey, we should make their exteriors as ugly as possible, so that car-jackers will not try to stop them, and rob the passengers." In Latin America such buses do get "bus-jacked", with passengers expected to hand over all their cash and valuables at gunpoint. But even still, this has not motivated anyone to come up with an ugly looking bus to deter bus-jacking. Instead, their well-designed exteriors will continue to look like the well-designed exteriors of all other buses, so at the very least they won't be singled out. Along similar lines, I figure that if the TerraLiner merely looks like a rather advanced sort of aerodynamic truck pulling a drawbar trailer behind it, then that should suffice. Contemporary truck cab-designs are becoming ever more aerodynamic with low drag coefficients, which means they are becoming ever more curvilinear, sleek, and beautiful. So I don't see why the TerraLiner should look any different.

Put succinctly, the problem is not looking beautiful on the outside. Rather, the problem is looking different. Anything that suggests to a carjacker that one's vehicle might be a particularly lucrative target, decreases one's safety. But all contemporary long-haul buses look very beautiful on the outside, so it's impossible for a bus-jacker to decide which one will yield the most cash, based on exterior appearance alone.

Now here is something that some of the more military-minded thread-particpants have failed to consider. Looking different also includes looking more butch, aggressive, and militaresque on the exterior.

Consider: Texas Armoring deliberately conceals its armoring. Texas Amoring takes very ordinary-looking SUVs, and after the armoring process, they still look like very ordinary SUVs. They don't look any more aggressive or threatening on the outside after they have been fully armored. All the armoring is concealed, because if it were not concealed, and if it were obvious that an SUV is very heavily armored and not typical at all, that mere fact alone might make the SUV and/or its owners a more attractive target. Designing to create a militaresque sort of threat display, is actually kind of male-macho-stupid, because it very loudly advertises to the outside world, "I am worried about my safety". That alone makes potential car-jackers wonder, "Heh, if those people in that vehicle are worried about their safety, then they must be worth attacking." In other words, an aggressive-looking vehicle exterior actually invites aggressive interest. Whereas if one's armored SUV looks exactly the same on the outside as all other SUVs, then one is not advertising oneself as a particularly worthwhile target.

This may not seem obvious, and it may be difficult to understand, but from a military and biological point of view, what Texas Armoring is doing would be classified as "mimetic camouflage" -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camouflage :



Camouflage is the use of any combination of materials, coloration, or illumination for concealment, either by making animals or objects hard to see (crypsis), or by disguising them as something else (mimesis).



Texas Armoring is in effect disguising very armored vehicles to look like ordinary SUVs. Texas Armouring is using "mimetic camouflage" to provide protection for its customers.

Needless to say, this a far more sophisticated way to think about how to design for TerraLiner security, than designing for ugliness, or designing to create a militaresque threat-display. In the case of beautiful long-haul buses, the disguise is the fact that most contemporary long-haul buses now have very beautiful exteriors. Again, mimesis: one beautiful bus exterior looks about as good as the next beautiful bus exterior. And in the case of the TerraLiner, the disguise or camouflage will be the TerraLiner's resemblance to a rather advanced, aerodynamic, 3-axle truck that's towing a drawbar trailer. Nowadays such vehicles can have very beautiful exteriors, so the TerraLiner could have a very beautiful exterior, too. Just as long as it is disguised or camouflaged as a truck, pulling a trailer.

Finally, in this section we should note that the one big exception amongst expedition motorhome manufacturers is Earthoamer -- see http://earthroamer.com . Earthroamer expedition vehicles are extremely beautiful on the outside as well as the inside. On the outside their camper bodies are single-piece composite shells that have rounded corners, and the whole ensemble is about as elegant and breathtaking as it's possible for a truck-camper to be:



[video=vimeo;118072292]https://vimeo.com/118072292[/video] [video=vimeo;118072291]https://vimeo.com/118072291[/video]



Here I want to ask: Is Earthoamer doing something wrong? According to some thread participants, it must be, because when traveling in Second and Third-world countries the exteriors of Earthroamers will very loudly declare, "I am a beautifully designed, probably very expensive truck camper, whose occupants must be a rich First World couple carrying plenty of cash. A couple perhaps even worth kidnapping." And yet Earthroamer truck campers seem to do just fine traveling in South America. I did an Internet search for "Earthroamer attacks" and "Earthroamer carjacking", and found nothing. If others with experience using Earthroamers, or who know Earthroamer owners, would like to share stories about how vulnerable and/or invulnerable these vehicles are when traveling in Second and Third World countries, please do. But it seems that "ugliness on the outside" has never been a primary design goal for Earthroamer. In fact, exactly the opposite.

So if designing for exterior beauty works for Earthroamer, then why should it not work for the TerraLiner?

To be honest, I find the "ugliness on the outside is best" argument to be a bit perverse, and also an excuse. It's either an excuse used by those who can't afford the cost of a better designed and more beautiful expedition motorhome. Or it's an excuse used by lazy manufacturers who don't want to go to the trouble of designing the same.



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3. It's not how one's expedition motorhome looks on the outside that will protect one when camping, but rather, where one chooses to camp.


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I also think it's a terrible pity if the TerraLiner should be expected to still look like just a truck when camping. egn has written that what the interior and exterior of an expedition motorhome look like should not matter too much, because "real motorhoming enthusiasts" spend most of their time outside the vehicle. But again, if that's true, then what's the point in trying to design a better globally capable motorhome in the first place? So I figure that there should be nothing wrong whatsoever if the TerraLiner unfolds to become a very beautiful mobile beach-house with lots of expansive decks, awnings, and glass, and no longer looks like just a truck when camping.

On my own view, it's a compete illusion if expedition motorhome owners think that their vehicles' ugly exteriors will somehow visually protect them when they free-camp. The guy whose motorhome was attacked in the video that Silverado posted a while back was certainly not living in a very attractive or luxurious vehicle. His motorhome interior looks at least 15 or 20 years old:






What he realizes in the course of the video is that it's where he chooses to camp that will protect him, and not how his vehicle looks. He realizes that when he free camps in an urban area, he is making himself and his motorhome inherently vulnerable. So at the end of the video he decides to change his location to.... a farm.



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4. The biggest problem is flying rocks, not flying bullets


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I mainly began exploring the world of armoring because of Nick's suggestion that curved bullet-proof glass is widely available. And once I discovered that all-plastic bullet-proof glass that resists white-out and spidering is available, suddenly I had a solution to the cracked-windshield problem.

Having to replace a windshield in the middle of nowhere is an issue for an expedition motorhome. Which is why, for instance, I fully agree with those who argued that any kind of panoramic windshield needs to be composed out of segments. A single large piece of glass is a mistake. But even when a windshield segment gets hit by flying debris from an irresponsible truck in front, if it is ordinary glass -- or even if it is ordinary bullet-proof glass composed of layers of polycarbonate and glass -- the debris will leave behind a shatter pattern ("white out") that impairs visibility. One solution is to have the windshield composed of flat segments that can be easily and quickly replaced just about anywhere. But the alternative solution is to have it composed of curved segments of all-plastic bullet-proof glass, the kind that only creates a very limited shatter pattern when subject to impact.

Once I began realizing that this second alternative exists, well, naturally enough I thought this might be a good moment to investigate armoring more generally, and the different possible levels of bullet-proof glass protection. When driving between campsite A and campsite B in Brazil, it's possible that the TerraLiner might be subject to a carjacking attempt. So if the TerraLiner is going to have thick all-plastic bullet-proof glass in any case to solve the flying-rock problem, one might as well think through bullet-proofing, figuring out what level of protection against carjackers with guns would be desirable. For better or worse, I have extensive knowledge of, and practical experience with, a wide range of firearms. So I figured that I would be able to think through bullet-proofing to a reasonable level of sophistication, and this seemed like a good moment to do so. For instance, I have actually used a .50 caliber sniper rifle, the Walther 2000. So I also know just how unlikely it would be that the TerraLiner should be subject to a .50 caliber attack. In the Middle East prominent politicians and wealthy men need to worry about assassination attempts, in which an assassin would use a .50 caliber rifle. Their vehicles do need UL Level 10 protection. But not the TerraLiner.

It was sort of fun to think all of this through, and take a walk down memory lane, even though I haven't touched a gun in over a decade, I no longer hunt, and I've become a Buddhist and a pacifist. But quite honestly, my main concern was the flying-rock problem, and the problem of replacing windshield glass in the middle of nowhere. My main concern was not car-jacking, because the TerraLiner will only be potentially vulnerable when underway between campsite A on protected farmland, and campsite B on protected farmland. It will be moving for most of that time, not stopped or stationary. So the only potential carjacking moments will arise when the TerraLiner stops at a traffic light, or gets caught in a traffic jam. In Rio and Sao Paolo lots of car-jackings are now occurring on crowded highways during rush hour, when traffic is moving very slowly or has stopped.



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5. Mimetic Camouflage


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In closing, Luke, I really want to thank you for positing that video about the South African "blaster", and what it would mean to get violently aggressive with carjackers. What the video depicts is so horrible and so inhumane, that it really got me thinking in a deep and systematic way about what "true" protection means. The blaster would not kill carjackers, but it would permanently blind them, and it would give them first-degree burns, inflicting a terrible amount of pain. True protection for the TerrraLiner when underway -- which for me also means genuinely ethical and humane protection -- will therefore primarily be a matter of mimetic camouflage. It will be about making the TerraLiner look as much as possible like a "fashion-forward" sort of 3-axle truck, pulling a drawbar trailer.

There will still be lots of room here for creating beauty: the beauty of a very aerodynamic, well-designed truck, pulling a trailer. If the TerraLiner looks like a beautifully aerodynamic and curvilinear truck on the outside, but still just a truck, then potential carjackers will visually classify the TerraLiner as jut another long-haul truck. They will assume that the TerraLiner is hauling freight, and they will have no idea what's inside. Sure, the overall design of the TerraLiner will be very contemporary, and combined with the trailer it will form an aerodynamically optimal tear-drop shape, of the kind that is now becoming available for trucks. I will explain what this means at length in a later post, but for now, see http://www.donbur.co.uk/gb-en/about/history.php , http://www.donbur.co.uk/gb-en/products/draw-bar-combinations.php , http://www.donbur.co.uk/gb-en/3d/groups/aerodynamic-bodywork.php , and http://www.donbur.co.uk/gb-en/info/aerodynamics.php . Even though the TerraLiner will be very aerodynamic, it will still visually classify as a truck, and nothing but a truck.

If you hadn't posted about the South African blaster, Luke, and if I hadn't realized that Texas Armoring is deliberately using mimetic camouflage as a protective tactic, none of this would have become so crystal clear to me. I've been struggling for years trying to reconcile my desire -- as a designer -- for the TerraLiner to look beautiful on the outside, with my equally strong desire for the TerraLiner to be completely safe and secure when underway, or stopped at a traffic light. Yes, concealed light-weight Kevlar armoring, and all-plastic bullet-proof glass that does not white-out or spider, will also be part of the solution..... But the primary solution will be mimetic camouflage: making the TerraLiner really look like a truck, and nothing but a truck. Albeit a very advanced-looking, super-beautiful truck.....:sombrero:

Finally, consider: one of the main defects of the Kiravan is that it is not mimetically camouflaged -- see http://kiravan.net . The Kiravan does not resemble any class of ordinary vehicle, and yet the Kiravan still looks very beautiful and very expensive. In a nutshell, the exterior design of the Kiravan advertises itself as exceptional, unusual, unique, and hence an ideal target; even when underway, and even when none of the swing-outs and pop-ups are deployed.

Many thanks, and all best wishes,



Biotect
 
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biotect

Designer


Idea: you burn your waste. How about recovering moisture from that? And I wonder if efficiency improvements in distillery (like pressure-increase) are applicable to burning ****. I guess yes.

Anyway, when considering boondocking I would be much more concerned about fuel than water.

Bio, with regard to efficiency, read the numbers that me and egn posted. AWG is terribly inefficient and not sustainable on solar. Reduce your weight savings by carrying extra fuel.

I posted a summary of specs of many water makers a few hours ago, but the forum seems to have eaten that. Because of 2 posts in a row? Or maybe I've done something wrong.

I will repost tomorrow, for now some data from memory.

Anyway, there are RO systems with energy recovery under 30 kg with ~4.5 Wh/l

Distillation systems that I found are usually huge and extremely variable when it comes to efficiency. The best one that I found was 22.x Wh/l with the weight of <200 kg. But is is so outstanding that I wonder if I understand it right, other small ones used (IIRC) >700 Wh/l.

BTW I view a good water recovery system, one that leaves very little dirty fluid, a major step toward flush-and forget. When you can afford to burn all your waste, you free yourself from some dirty (and stinky) work.

And there's no problem with leaving a puddle of excrement on the side of the road when there's no better draining place.



Hi safas (or is it aarfa?)

Sometimes the thread has moved so fast, that I simply could not keep up.....:sombrero:

A while back there was a really interesting discussion about the comparative power requirements of RO versus an AWG on pages 147, 148 and 149, where dwh and egn got very technical with energy figures -- see http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...s-A-Crossover-w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain/page147 , http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...s-A-Crossover-w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain/page148 , and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...s-A-Crossover-w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain/page149 . dwh also posted an interesting link to a highly portable unit that uses RO to desalinate water, a product that deserves further discussion -- see http://www.h2oonthego.com.au . And safas, you posted a long list of the specs for various water-makers in post #1467, if indeed you are the same person as aarfa?? In addition, you posted a very interesting summary of the power consumption figures for various incinerating toilets, in post #1479, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1860635#post1860635 .

Reading over those pages again, I can now see what the basic issue was between dwh and egn: Will the TerraLiner be an "energy intensive" motorhome, or not? And will the TerraLiner run a generator to produce electricity, or not?



I have always written that RO isn't a problem regarding energy use, but AWGs are. See the 8 Gallon EcoBlue.

At realistic humidity levels they produce only half the sticker value per day.

The water produced by the Gr8 unit and the RO shown is de-mineralized and has to be treated further be good drinking water.

Using excess solar to do recycling/harvesting water is a good idea. I use the excess energy for heating water. But this works only in the sunny part of the year.

1 kW looks low, but it means 24 kWh/d and therefor running a generator for several hours per day only for generating the water. Add AC to this and the generator will run most of the day. This doesn't look like a sustainable concept for me, especially when biotect would like to be able to stay for months far from civilization and from supplies. For me a Terraliner based on wasting that much resources wouldn't be very attractive. Beside that you have to be able to put all this machines into Terraliner and to manage them all.

I think the focus should be to conserve water and energy as far as possible first, then it should be looked how the residual can be supplied in an efficient and manageable manner.


By now it's fairly clear that egn is moderately "anti-generator", and anti-A/C. Whereas I am not much interested in an "energy minimalistic" TerraLiner that does not have A/C. There is no question that egn is partially right, that energy conservation via excellent insulation, or more efficient heating (for instance, far-infrared thin-film panels?), needs to be an important part of the solution. I like to think that my emphasis on drop-down decks with pergola awnings that are highly wind-resistant, already demonstrates a strong willingness to "design green", because side-awnings will massively reduce the solar heat gain on the sides of the TerraLiner.

Even still, I now wonder how everything changes once one imagines a TerraLiner with a 300 KW battery pack, and a 300 KW primary generator that could recharge that battery pack in just a few hours?



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1. How much power will the TerraLiner's solar arrays produce?



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As regards solar, I have always said that I don't think it will be enough. But that doesn't mean that the TerraLiner should not be designed to have maximum solar. Over the next 10 years solar will gradually improve, and roof-top solar panels and pergola awnings with thin-film solar cells are precisely the kinds of elements of the TerraLiner that one would want to replace as technology advances. So I think it makes lots of sense to design the TerraLiner with big pergola awnings that are very wind-proof, both to increase the size of the TerraLiner's solar array, as well as for more aesthetic, design, and functionality reasons. Again, I am thinking of the TerraLiner as somewhat akin to a cottage or a Florida vacation home, where large decks and patios become the primary socializing spaces.

The efficiency of solar cells of all kinds intended for the consumer market may well double over next 10 years. But it has to be granted that progress in the efficiency of mono-crystalline and thin-film technologies has been quite slow:



NREL_Best_Research-Cell_Efficiencies.jpg



Perhaps for a real breakthrough in consumer-level solar-cell efficiency to occur, some other solar technology that is currently very expensive needs to suddenly become very cheap. But even if consumer-level solar power continues it rather slow upward trend, it's quite possible that the TerraLiner might be able to meet all of its camping power needs via solar alone by 2025 or 2028, in a climate that has good DNI.

Earlier in the thread I calculated that at most that the TerraLiner might be able to have a solar array producing 10 - 11 kWh at maximum efficiency in 2020, for the roof + side-awnings. However, that was for a 10 m TerraLiner, whereas I am now projecting a 12 m TerraLiner. So perhaps 12 - 13 kWh. And once we include the potential power from drop-down decks with walkable solar panels, and power from the sides of the TerraLiner which might be covered with thin-film solar panels where there are no windows, perhaps 14 kWh might be possible.

But that was before egn posted the link to "SmartFlower" -- see http://greenbuildingelements.com/2015/09/09/solar-power-takes-the-form-of-a-sunflower/ , https://www.smartflower.com/en/smartflower_popplus , https://www.smartflower.com/en/smartflower_pope , https://www.smartflower.com/assets/smartflowerpop-e_en-81bc43b93f08abd0b8138f5f5891952d.pdf , https://www.smartflower.com/assets/smartflowerpopplus_en-2a6002c8d812428b8da691198f16490d.pdf , post #1807 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1931555#post1931555 , and my response in posts #1810 to #1815 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...w-6x6-Hybrid-Drivetrain?p=1932485#post1932485 and following:



smartflower-POP__hero.jpg smartflower_WRNeustadt2_August15.jpg smarttflower_BelgiumKids_M1.jpg
smartflower_FondRose_June15.jpg smarttflower_Belgium3_May15.jpg smartflower_WRNeustadt_August15.jpg
smartflower_WRNeustadt3_August15.jpg smartflower_Belgium_Sept2015.jpg






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CONTINUED IN NEXT POST
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