Scott Brady
Founder
Some solid NTV training with a few friends. Getting comfortable shooting in and around the vehicles
The AR-15
- Thread starter Scott Brady
- Start date
Yuman Desert Rat
Expedition Leader
IMHO, I think everyone should be proficient with optics AND open sights. I have an aimpoint. It's nice. Does the job. However good ol Iron sigts are what I was raised on so if I cant drop a man sized target at 500 yards with those? I'd say the Marine Corps has wasted the past 19 years on me.... FORTUNATELY, they have not. These whipper snappers nowadays have it made with the ACOG's! Especially the ones that quallify on some cushy range in Southern California! I you haven't shot the 8th relay in Yuma in July or August you're expert badge is... well lets just say EAST to get!! Sorry for the rant...
It terrifies to live in an age where the US Army and Marine Corps are not shooting on iron sights. Infantry schools stopped teaching it. The Marine Corps doesn't even issue a rear iron sight on their guns to recruits. At least at the Army infantry school you still get the iron sights issued, get taught a class on them, shoot them...but you qualify on the aimpoint.
All effects of the video game generation, i fear.....
All effects of the video game generation, i fear.....
This is news to me! I've been in the US Army Reserve for 10 years and I've never qualified on anything but iron sites. Are you sure Soldiers at basic combat training qual on Aimpoints?
Ray_G
Explorer
It's the effects of the OIF/OEF generation, not video games. While I too grew up on irons and firmly believe the fundamentals of marksmanship taught to me on them were a superb base the reality of a combat proven optic's performance in comparison is impossible to deny. With such limited time at recruit training, why spend it doing both when the likelihood of a Marine needing to use BUIS is rather low given durability? I'd rather have my kids coming into the fleet raised on the RCO since birth as it gives them a chance to have the shooter meet the optic's potential, something anyone who was around for the fielding of ACOGs can tell you certainly wasn't the case 10 years ago-& even then a half-exploited optic was better than irons.
Nothing wrong with nostalgia, it just can't get in the way of the most effective method of killing the enemy.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Nothing wrong with nostalgia, it just can't get in the way of the most effective method of killing the enemy.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes. When I went through infantry school almost 10 years ago the qual was done on an aimpoint. you were permitted to use the irons if you wanted. AFAIK, (at least at that time) the army still taught iron sight engagement. You could qual on the unknown distance qual with aimpoint or irons. Per my marine buddy, the USMC is not even teaching or issuing irons sights anymore, and they qual on optics. Other units (like yours) may still qual on irons. It appears to be unit to unit. At my unit we qual on the irons, the eotech, the acog, the aimpoint, and the elcan.
While I don't disagree, I've had my optic fail on me during an operation. I needed to understand not only the fundamentals of iron sight alignment, but also rapid/cqb techniques using irons. These optics can and do fail. An effective fighter needs to be able to do both proficiently, becuase my responsibilities don't change with a secondary equipment failure. Taking out the fundamentals from training will have dangerous consequences down the road, imo.
Hah, I we don't get the cool stuff in the Reserve
I guess I assumed everyone qualified on irons and maybe used optics during predeployment training, etc. I do believe any service member should be proficient at both.
Ray_G
Explorer
So for the sake of discussion, what optic failed? I ask be this subject is a near/dear daily professional convo in my world since I am in one of the few USMC units that is still running iron sights and one of the main objections to going with RCOs is that they can fail-which of course is true but the question is how likely is that? In my combat tours through Fallujah and Ramadi in 3rd Bn, 8th Marines I think I could count RCO failures on one hand with fingers left over.
That doesn't mean you shouldn't have, and train, with BUIS of course, just that if you are going to invest in a durable optic that is vastly superior to the naked eye spend the bulk of your limited time and ammo for the broadest elements of the force training on that. Those who face the highest likelihood of equipment failure should train with backups of course, and if they don't...they should go do other things so that the professionals can move forward.
I'd be interested to see what failed on you.
R-
Ray
Eotech.
Weve had eotechs fail from what we suspect is vibration/shock.
Early make elcan spectr dr's lost zero easily.
Optics are king, for sure. Engagement speeds are drastically reduced. But you have to keep up iron proficiency. No reason not to shoot both.
Stumpalump
Expedition Leader
Fancy sights were invented because of the AR. You can't hit squat with out them. Choose a gun that feels right with two eyes down range on target. If your way off because you were not using sights then you have the wrong gun. Freak mags show guys with the AR at their shoulder ready to use the scope. That's because it feels so weird they don't dare get far from the scope. I'll take a Mac 90 with iron sights over a fancy plastic gun that shoots like crap unless I'm zeroed in with a scope. Your plastic gun may fit or did you just fit your gun? I never knew anybody that could get their hands on all sorts of weapons prefer an AR unless they were brainwashed ex military. Your results may vary but don't think an AR is a good gun because it's what American military uses. They are a cool gun. Cool guns are for gun freaks. Effective guns are for self preservation.
Madness. Lots of people hit squat with them all the time, and the AR platform can have excellent accuracy past 500m. With your typical bushmaster type battle rifle, irons or cheap red dot, and bulk ammo, I'll hit ~3" at 100m. Make it a quality gun with nice scope and fancy ammo, most people will hit ~3" at 200m. For me, the biggest complaints are they aren't as rugged or durable as I'd like and they get really dirty really fast.