The Dana 50 TTB and getting it under my E350 van.

[BajaSportsmobile]

So you guys measure travel with the coil removed?

Yes, I can't overcome the spring to cycle it otherwise.

The coil spring has no effect on travel numbers. Droop is limited by the shock absorbers extended length and compression is limited by the final bump stop. The only way the spring would limit travel would be if it went into coil bind (limiting bump travel) or was too short (limiting droop). Neither of these happen.

When we cycle a leaf sprung suspensions, we check droop with the full spring pack. When we check bump travel, we remove all of the leafs, below the main leaf, and replace them with a block of equal thickness. We can easily overcome the resistance of the main leaf alone and approximate full bump travel. This is how we check for proper shock lengths and optimize travel and make sure nothing is colliding.

Of course we have to make sure that the compressed length of the shock is not limiting bump travel because it is too long, and secondarily, that the shock is not too short, limiting droop. We want the axle bump travel to stop on the bump stop and not on a bottomed out shock.

When we build race cars, we spend countless hours cycling suspensions, to optimize everything. When we designed our first TTB Van, we spent several days cycling it and making adjustments. Once we had it working we revalved shocks many times to get what we were looking for. We did the same thing when we developed the Quigley RIP Kit - probably tried more than a half dozen different tunes after finding the correct length shock bodies and travel.

 

[Abitibi]

Thanks for the clear explanation, makes sense.

 

[tgreening]

In essence you're removing the coil because it's too physically difficult to cycle the suspension with it installed, correct? That makes more sense than the other explanation which made it sound as if the coil was inhibiting range of motion.

 

[Abitibi]

In essence you're removing the coil because it's too physically difficult to cycle the suspension with it installed, correct? That makes more sense than the other explanation which made it sound as if the coil was inhibiting range of motion.

And they do the same (or similar) for leafs. All good.

Would be great for Agile to start a thread similar to UJOR, providing these technical details, some van porn, products and ongoing projects. Then it doesn't get lost through other people's posts... Maybe all in good time

 

[BajaSportsmobile]

I am sure that I do understand... 3/8" plate is for farm implements and ghetto fab projects. 3/16" rarely finds its way into a Trophy Truck build... I've been doing this a long time and learned from the best. I am quite comfortable with our design.

I'm not sure that you understand how great the amount of torque put onto that arm by the front differential really is when the front tires are trying to claw their way up & over a rugged obstacle while in low range...
If you think about it, that one arm has to support thousands of foot-lbs, and it can even hit close to five figures when dynamics such as a bounce while on the throttle come into play. This is vastly different than what a radius arm is subjected to when blasting down a Baja race course (which I understand the majority is typically done in 2WD anyway).


Presented with what I see in those pics, I would box up the first ~24" of the arm coming from the axle with some 3/16" plate, and then add a gusset (3/8" or so thick) along the upper tube that reaches to the top of the axle beam where the section of box tubing is. This would increase the structural rigidity of where the arm is attached probably 20-fold.




That is how you objectively measure the (up) travel of any coil spring suspension.

 

[ujoint]

Yes, I can't overcome the spring to cycle it otherwise.

The coil spring has no effect on travel numbers. Droop is limited by the shock absorbers extended length and compression is limited by the final bump stop. The only way the spring would limit travel would be if it went into coil bind (limiting bump travel) or was too short (limiting droop). Neither of these happen.

When we cycle a leaf sprung suspensions, we check droop with the full spring pack. When we check bump travel, we remove all of the leafs, below the main leaf, and replace them with a block of equal thickness. We can easily overcome the resistance of the main leaf alone and approximate full bump travel. This is how we check for proper shock lengths and optimize travel and make sure nothing is colliding.

Of course we have to make sure that the compressed length of the shock is not limiting bump travel because it is too long, and secondarily, that the shock is not too short, limiting droop. We want the axle bump travel to stop on the bump stop and not on a bottomed out shock.

When we build race cars, we spend countless hours cycling suspensions, to optimize everything. When we designed our first TTB Van, we spent several days cycling it and making adjustments. Once we had it working we revalved shocks many times to get what we were looking for. We did the same thing when we developed the Quigley RIP Kit - probably tried more than a half dozen different tunes after finding the correct length shock bodies and travel.

Gotcha. No access to a forklift or ramp? I prefer to cycle in final trim. I can get a single leaf to flex WAY more than it ever would with the rest of the pack attached. And the droop will go further with the leverage of the vehicle weight.

Would be great for Agile to start a thread similar to UJOR, providing these technical details, some van porn, products and ongoing projects. Then it doesn't get lost through other people's posts... Maybe all in good time

He would have to become a forum sponsor to do that.

 

[philos]

Ball joints:
Motorcraft MCS10383 lower, MCS10339 upper.
Moog k8435 lower, k80026 upper.
Raybestos (also delco?) 505-1103 lower, 500-1048 upper.
XRF k8435 lower, k80026 upper.
I'm not gonna look at the dyna ball joints, just too much money.

I used to prefer Moog, but I'm way under impressed with the set I just put on my van.
Motorcraft seems to be getting mixed reviews these days too.
The raybestos look nicer in photos, but that's not really much to go on.

At least I can still count on Timken for all the bearings!


Sent via flux capacitor

 

[villageidiot327]

I put moog in my van without any trouble.

 

[4x4junkie]

Ball joints:
Motorcraft MCS10383 lower, MCS10339 upper.
Moog k8435 lower, k80026 upper.
Raybestos (also delco?) 505-1103 lower, 500-1048 upper.
XRF k8435 lower, k80026 upper.
I'm not gonna look at the dyna ball joints, just too much money.

I used to prefer Moog, but I'm way under impressed with the set I just put on my van.
Motorcraft seems to be getting mixed reviews these days too.
The raybestos look nicer in photos, but that's not really much to go on.

At least I can still count on Timken for all the bearings!


Sent via flux capacitor

Raybestos I think is still the one to go with these days. (×2 on Moog, they didn't last for crap, went through several of them myself)

Raybestos was bought up a year or so ago by Federal Mogul, parent company of Moog. So I haven't yet seen whether quality has taken a dump or not. I've had opportunity to inspect some Raybestos joints manufactured after the buyout, they looked like they may be decent (better than current-at-the-time Moog stuff), but I haven't actually installed and used a set yet.

I am sure that I do understand... 3/8" plate is for farm implements and ghetto fab projects. 3/16" rarely finds its way into a Trophy Truck build... I've been doing this a long time and learned from the best. I am quite comfortable with our design.

********

Well, the use of a 3/8" gusset would only be because of what I would be working with. Certainly there are better ways to build a radius arm, I agree.

I've said my part so I'll let it go now. Good luck with it.

 

[BajaSportsmobile]

Gotcha. No access to a forklift or ramp? I prefer to cycle in final trim. I can get a single leaf to flex WAY more than it ever would with the rest of the pack attached. And the droop will go further with the leverage of the vehicle weight.

We have a 6000 lb Toyota Forklift, but I can't lift a van high enough and drop it quick enough to duplicate the g-forces exerted on the suspension in normal driving.

I could use the forklift to pick up a front corner, to any height, and it would never compress the spring enough to bottom out the suspension. The static weight on that corner will never overcome the spring force and fully cycle the suspension. Yet, all I have to do is hit a big dip at speed and I can fully bottom out the suspension and get full travel. This is because the g-forces effectively double, triple or quadruple the "weight" on the spring. You can't do that statically.

The only way to cycle the suspension and see what it is doing when it does get full travel, is to remove the spring or reduce the spring rate (remove leafs) and take it to the point where it mechanically bottoms out.

[video]https://youtu.be/-9BYrQj2hMw[/video]

 

[philos]

I'm going to ask another time to remember this is my thread.


Sent via flux capacitor

 

[Mwilliamshs]

I'm going to ask another time to remember this is my thread.


Sent via flux capacitor

:wings::coffeedrink::victory:

 

[simple]

I'm going to ask another time to remember this is my thread.


Sent via flux capacitor

He He, not so much any more. It's already a mess and looks like it's going just be that way, you'll have to start a new thread and compile all the meaningful info when you're done. Blah Blah woof woof interwebs :coffeedrink:

 

[Petrolburner]

I'm going to ask another time to remember this is my thread.


Sent via flux capacitor

I haven't noticed any off topic discussion, it seems to all be centered around TTB front suspension.

 

[tgreening]

I'm going to ask another time to remember this is my thread.


Sent via flux capacitor

Man I get ya, but good luck with that. It's the biggest reason search functions are about one of these most useless tools in any forum. Most threads start running off topic after about an average of 7 posts or so, with periodic turns to get back on topic, followed by the inevitable drift back to the curb.

I would agree with the other poster though, even the thinly disguised darts being tossed back and forth by some contain nuggets of useful info for your build. Even if you don't use them, knowledge is knowledge.

Got to hand it to you though, I don't have near the patience or drive to go your route. I went the easy leaf springs-in-a-kit way, where someone had already done all the research, and didn't mind passing that on.