The importance of a rear dust light in the southwest.

njtacoma

Explorer
Old school 911's had a red light below the rear bumper that was the rear foglight. It was as bright as a brake light, but stayed lit. My 91 Volvo had one built into the left tail light assembly (maybe on the right in the UK?).

I think I would go red and try to keep it low. If you're really worried you could make it flash, but that might catch the eye of the authorities.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads2/IMG_28921081953360.jpg
 

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Clutch

<---Pass
Excellent post OCD Overland.

They don't him OCD Overland for nothing! :)



So fellas...is there a special light we can use to get people to simply pay attention? I loose count how many people have their noses in their phones on my 26 mile work commute...what light should I use for that? ;) :D
 

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
So fellas...is there a special light we can use to get people to simply pay attention? I loose count how many people have their noses in their phones on my 26 mile work commute...what light should I use for that? ;) :D
I'm thinking audible and order should be:
  1. Stock horns
  2. Klaxon (hopefully this is the highest needed, but...)
  3. Air raid horn
  4. Train horn
 

SDDiver5

Expedition Leader
So fellas...is there a special light we can use to get people to simply pay attention? I loose count how many people have their noses in their phones on my 26 mile work commute...what light should I use for that? ;) :D

Watch Troll Hunter on Netflix (not the cartoon). That's what I would use as a dust light and as a distracted driver light. :wings:
 

Clutch

<---Pass
I'm thinking audible and order should be:
  1. Stock horns
  2. Klaxon (hopefully this is the highest needed, but...)
  3. Air raid horn
  4. Train horn

Nice!

Watch Troll Hunter on Netflix (not the cartoon). That's what I would use as a dust light and as a distracted driver light. :wings:

For the win! That was on a Landy IIRC...extra EXPO bonus points for that reference! :D

trollhunter32.jpg
 

Martinjmpr

Wiffleball Batter
.
So fellas...is there a special light we can use to get people to simply pay attention? I loose count how many people have their noses in their phones on my 26 mile work commute...what light should I use for that? ;) :D
.
Ask a firefighter or cop how many collisions or near misses they've had running Code 3 with flashing lights, strobes, LEDs and hundred decibel sirens going.
.
If that noise and light doesn't get a distracted driver's attention nothing short of a .50 cal round to the windshield will. ;)
 

Clutch

<---Pass
.
Ask a firefighter or cop how many collisions or near misses they've had running Code 3 with flashing lights, strobes, LEDs and hundred decibel sirens going.
.
If that noise and light doesn't get a distracted driver's attention nothing short of a .50 cal round to the windshield will. ;)

True true....(unfortunately)
 

larcie

Member
heck, I just drive with my lights ON,
all of the time,
in conditions I can't see, I stop, pull over, and activate flashing hazard lights,
Heavy Rain, Snow, or Dust, it seems to work.

amazingly others tear past at speed, no lights on, almost invisible..!

be safe, be seen!
 

toyick

I build Boat Anchors
Late to the party....

OP's user name says it all. Interesting that he hasn't posted in several pages.....

The real problem here is that the pre-run crowd has discovered the Mojave Road and thinks that they own it. Would not surprise me to eventually read about Baja race style speed traps set by pissed off locals out there somewhere along the route. Really, it would not. Those traveling at a sane speed would have no trouble with them.


They are good for fog too. Used them coming home from the '02 B1K somewhere well north of G.N. in heavy, dense fog.

We live in the same area. Let's hope you never nerf me. Your truck will not survive the encounter still operational. Try nerfing a 9 car or an 11 car and see what people think and do. Nerfing me will be pleasant by comparison. Even in off-road racing nerfing is a last ditch effort and some sanctioning bodies are moving to make it illegal in their races. It has absolutely no place outside of racing and is inexcusable anywhere else regardless of the situation.


If your damper tuner really knew what they were doing this would not be the case. It is easy to valve for one shaft speed, it is not for varying shaft speed.

Must be a pretty short life as dust lights on anything other than the race vehicle are a new phenomenon. BTW, as much as Ventura is a Coastal Desert it isn't "the desert".

FWIW in the original racing application the amber fog lights used do "flash". I put that in quotes because there is no electrical device making it flash, but rather they flash due to pitching (& occasionally the yawing too) of the vehicle that they're mounted on. If you want one to flash just put an electronic type flasher in the power wire. You'll want an electronic one or the flash will be very slow to non-existent due to the currant draw of just one light not being great enough to heat the bi-metal strip.

If you want a pavement use rear facing light I'd go with red and I'd mount it low. For off-road I'd go with amber and mount it at average driver eye level.

Well said!
 

JaSAn

Grumpy Old Man
Thanks to all who took the time to answer my questions, especially to Robert Bills and OCD Overland.

This is my current thinking:

Single light.
Receiver hitch mounted so it is usable when camper is on or off.
Red (per OCD Overland's thinking). One pays a huge price for red over amber: (from my Gam Color Chart) medium red = 13% transmissivity, medium amber = 71% transmissivity.
55 watts or higher (because of low transmissivity of red). Have to check to see what is street legal in Minnesota for rear facing lights.
Driving beam pattern. Will a polyester gel survive inside a halogen driving light? Maybe go with LED? Or is there some kind of paint/dye that will work better? Or is a red lense or cover available?
Powered off of AUX terminal on 7 blade trailer plug, rewired to switch in cab.​

I have also thought about mounting the light on the camper to get it higher (camper is on the truck from April to November). And most of my need is when traveling out west and fog from Lake Superior. I was surprised at how much dust one could kick up on back roads in Utah at 15 - 20 MPH.

jim
 

Robert Bills

Explorer
. . . Red light . . . will be visible for the farthest distance and will be the clearest regardless of distance. . . .

This statement bothered me when I first read it because my recollection from my days long ago as a physics student is that an amber light of a given brightness is visible to the human eye from a greater distance than a red light of the same brightness. However, I didn't challenge OCD Overland's claim because I had concluded that a rear facing visibility light used on the street needs to be red in order to comply with the vehicle codes of most states even if an amber light might appear brighter.

Then came the most recent post in this thread, which read in part:

JaSan said:
One pays a huge price for red over amber: (from my Gam Color Chart) medium red = 13% transmissivity, medium amber = 71% transmissivity.

Aargh! Now I'm wrestling with Red vs. Amber as the most effective visibility light again.

I just did a Google search and found a 1999 article by Adrian Popa, "Mad Scientist" in the Engineering Department at Hughes Research Laboratories, who discusses the wavelengths of various colors, explains the physics of light transmission and the construction of the human eye, then confirms,

"Red is the worst color for seeing at a distance. You can observe this on a clear dark night from a hilltop looking at distant traffic signals. The yellow light will be brightest, the green light (which is slightly blue) will be seen almost as bright and the red light will be quite dim. For the same reason, on newer cars with yellow turn indicators, you will notice that they are much brighter than the red turn indicators on older cars."

Dr. Popa continues,

"So why are red lights used? In daylight the sun brightly lights the world that we see which often is filled with trees, grass and green things. Thus the contrast of seeing a green light and perhaps a yellow light against a bright yellow green background is difficult. In nature there are very few red colors except for flowers and so red stands out against the natural daylight background.


"In the nighttime this is not true and the background is less of a problem. In the city where I live we now use yellow fire engines because they can be
seen much better in dim light. We still have a few old red fire engines and they are almost black in dim light."


http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/1999-10/939051861.Eg.r.html


I think the bottom line is this: An amber light is more visible as a dust light or visibility light than red (something that offroad racers seem to know instinctively without resort to a study of physics). However, Federal DOT standards and many state vehicle codes require rear facing lights to be red in color with the exception of turn signals (which may be amber) and backup lights (which must be white). Thus, a dust/visibility light used on streets and highways must be red even though it is not the best color for visibility. A visibility light used offroad only may be amber or red, with the convention among offroaders being amber.
 

OCD Overland

Explorer
That's interesting, because as opposed to looking at how far the light itself travels, he approaches the problem from the other end; i.e., which color the eye is most sensitive to.

Most sources though will say that red is most visible because it travels the furthest through the atmosphere. That's because the longer wavelength isn't as susceptible to Rayleigh scattering.

Of course, there's got to be a balance between the two - how far does the light travel on the one hand, and then on the other, if it travels far enough, how easy is it to see. I have read that at close range, green is the most visible light while at longer ranges, red becomes most visible. This jives.

So the question is how much the light is scattered in the dust I guess. And the type of scattering - something interesting that I just read is that in fog the color actually doesn't matter because it's a different type of scattering that effects all wavelengths the same. Apparently, that's the same reason everything takes on a sort of white glow in the fog, because all the wavelengths of light are being scattered as white light.

I'm actually more swayed by JaSAn's point about the actual transmission of the different lights you can buy. I mean, if red lights are in fact dimmer, then perhaps that outweighs the color choice. So now I'm as confused as anyone. Despite my analytical side, I do put a lot of stock in intuition and so if over the years most off-roaders have adopted amber lights, then it's worth wondering why. A simple explanation would be that the amber lights that are available are just brighter than the red ones and therefore more visible.

I had a source I was looking at that I can't find now, but it was a study on warning lights I think from the Texas DOT. I *thought* that they had done actual experiments on visibility in different conditions. If anyone can dig it up, it might be helpful.
 
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Robert Bills

Explorer
FYI - I found another option for a rear-facing dust light for those who seldom really need one and who don't want to mess with a permanently wired light:


Custer Adjustable Emergency Light w/ Magnetic Base - 18 LED - Amber; powered by 4 AA batteries.


488.jpg



The same light is also available with a red lens.


635.jpg



These lights produce 1,256 lumens, which is about the same brightness as a H11 foglight bulb (1,250 Ln) and is about midway in brightness between typical #9007 low beams (1,000 Ln) and high beams (1,350 Ln). They can be set to flash 1x/sec. or constant on. The sellers claim up to 120 hours battery life in flashing mode.


I found these at Larsen Electronics for $36 plus exorbitant shipping charges and on Amazon at an inflated price but with "free" shipping. The best price I found online is at etrailer.com for $24.95 + $4.99 shipping. However, if your order is $50 or more shipping is free. I bought a red one and an amber one, plus a $0.20 ring terminal to get my order up to $50 to take advantage of free shipping.


My plan is to keep these in my emergency bag for use if I break down by the side of the road and to experiment with both for suitability as a rear facing fog light (red) and offroad dust light (amber). If one wanted to use one light for both purposes, etrailer shows a replacement amber lens for $5 so one could simply buy the red light and a spare amber lens for $35 including shipping.


Here's the link: https://www.etrailer.com/p-HF18A-MB.html.
 

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