Toyota Losing it's Mojo?

[Mack M]

For fun:

First off, I'm a Toyota fanboy through and through. I'm a car nut and I have a bad habit of owning lots of vehicles. I currently own a 1st gen Tundra and have owned a 200 series, a second gen Tundra, a GX 460 and 470, several Prius', 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen Tacomas, more 5th gen 4runners than I can count (most reliable vehicle on the planet in my opinion), a 1st gen 4runner on 35s and 6 inch lift with solid front axle, etc. I'm very experienced in Toyota needless to say, and do all my own work on vehicles.

However, when it came time for me to buy my next overland rig, which I plan on taking to Europe, northern Africa, and eventually the Pan-American highway, I didn't choose Toyota. I was on the fence and about to purchase a new third gen Tundra (a 24 model year), as I assumed that all the bugs had been worked out. I never try to purchase the brand new model year vehicle for teething issues, and had trusted Toyota to work out most of those issues. I drove the new tundra and was impressed, however, I did notice the two models that I drove both had less than 5 miles on them and had a strange vibration from the motor while in drive at a stop, and thus I went a different route and purchased a new 2024 Ford F250 4x4.

I've owned a couple Fords throughout my life and I've never been super impressed with them, but also not disappointed. However, after being disappointed with my 3rd gen Tacoma (poorly engineered drivetrain in my opinion), having issues with my 200, and GX 460 (timing cover on both, both low mileage, head gasket on 460 and radiator on 200 and oil in both spark plug tubes, as well as water pump on the 200); as well as seeing this video that mentions a large growing concern about the 5.7 that everyone held in such high regard: I'm losing faith.

This, as well as the most recent Toyota Tundra engine issue (I feel fortunate I didn't buy the Tundra, as this info came out just a few months after I bought the Ford). I feel like Toyota is losing what we all love about Toyotas: the fact that they are simple, super well-made machines that are going to last a very long time, if given the appropriate maintenance.

I think the fifth gen 4runner with it's nearly indestructible 5 speed trans and as reliable as they come, 1-GR-FE motor, is the apex of Toyota, and from what I've seen, the quality of the new TNGA stuff seems less so. Inversely, I feel like the quality of the F-250 I recently purchased is an improvement over my former Ford models.

I do believe only the Ford Superduty's fall into this, but as moch as I love Toyota, if I'm buying a new vehicle to drive around the world (even given the parts limitations), the Superduty, with it's solid front axle, simple pushrod motor with multiport fuel injection, is the best, most reliable choice. Mine for example, in the base XL trim, with locking rear diff, extended cab, 8 foot bed, was $48k out the door.

I hope Toyota gets back to what made them great, simple, reliable vehicles, but it doesn't look that way. The complexity of the new Tundra for example (two injection systems, two air filters, turbos, electric waste gates on those turbos, etc), is not a vehicle I would feel comfortable driving much further outside the confines of North America.

I know different models not in the North American market don't fall into this, but here, I think Toyota is no longer the answer.

Is my logic on this wrong?

 

[SDDiver5]

Good call on the F250! Great trucks. Had an excursion (basically the same) in High School and loved it.

You're not alone in being disappointed with Toyota. I know numerous life long Toyota guys that are switching brands for the same exact reasons. I think in North America they are trying to keep up with the insane popularity of them and are getting in over their heads.

 

[Christian P.]

GR Corolla Manual

Supra Manual

GR86 Manual

Tacoma Manual

That's a lot of Mojo in my book.

 

[Kors Camps]

Toyota's recent quality issues indicate to me that the company has pivoted away from customer satisfaction and towards share holder satisfaction. But they aren't unique in this way, in fact they're probably still the best in the industry.

They've had over a decade to engineer & test their new truck platforms and they still failed to deliver upon their age old promise of reliability. The first production year of a new platform isn't it's actual first year. Its the product of many years of prototyping. They can identity which problems exist or may exist throughout production & each product is carefully underwritten before its launched.

It's not as if Toyota suddenly forgot how to build bulletproof trucks...

When you slash labor costs, QC & value proposition the way they have while increasing production volume & margins, the cost of replacing 100k Tundra engines for example is a just a rounding error. The company & its investors have already made their money. Their portfolios increase as brand satisfaction decreases. I think this is true for every brand.

I think Toyota's pragmatic. They recognize how small the percentage of today's buyers actually keep their vehicles beyond the factory warranty period. They'd be leaving money on the table if they built to pre 2008 quality standards, slowed down the production line & didn't worship the gods of global arbitrage & "lean manufacturing".

Am I way off base here?

 

[Mack M]

Toyota's recent quality issues indicate to me that the company has pivoted away from customer satisfaction and towards share holder satisfaction. But they aren't unique in this way, in fact they're probably still the best in the industry.

They've had over a decade to engineer & test their new truck platforms and they still failed to deliver upon their age old promise of reliability. The first production year of a new platform isn't it's actual first year. Its the product of many years of prototyping. They can identity which problems exist or may exist throughout production & each product is carefully underwritten before its launched.

It's not as if Toyota suddenly forgot how to build bulletproof trucks...

When you slash labor costs, QC & value proposition the way they have while increasing production volume & margins, the cost of replacing 100k Tundra engines for example is a just a rounding error. The company & its investors have already made their money. Their portfolios increase as brand satisfaction decreases. I think this is true for every brand.

I think Toyota's pragmatic. They recognize how small the percentage of today's buyers actually keep their vehicles beyond the factory warranty period. They'd be leaving money on the table if they built to pre 2008 quality standards, slowed down the production line & didn't worship the gods of global arbitrage & "lean manufacturing".

Am I way off base here?

I couldn't agree more. Very well said. Additionally, to be the most reliable, and most well made, doesn't necessarily mean you need to hit any target of reliability and 'well made-ness,' you just have to be more reliable and well made than your competitors. Which I still believe they are in the car/cuv/hybrid market, but I no longer believe they are in the truck market, which is unfortunate.

I suppose it is inevitable when a company grows like this, and becomes more global, just a bummer for a fan boy like myself.

 

[rruff]

...seeing this video that mentions a large growing concern about the 5.7 that everyone held in such high regard

I just checked Consumer Reports reliability history for the entire 2007-2021 run of the 2nd gen Tundra, which is mostly the 5.7L.

12 of those 14 years got the highest rating, 5/5 for "Engine Major". The other two are 4/5. For the "Engine Minor" category 9 years are 5/5, and the other 5 are 4/5.

I think that very few of the 5.7s are suffering the fate that the CCN is mentioning.

 

[Mack M]

I just checked Consumer Reports reliability history for the entire 2007-2021 run of the 2nd gen Tundra, which is mostly the 5.7L.

12 of those 14 years got the highest rating, 5/5 for "Engine Major". The other two are 4/5. For the "Engine Minor" category 9 years are 5/5, and the other 5 are 4/5.

I think that very few of the 5.7s are suffering the fate that the CCN is mentioning.

I don't doubt it, though I question the efficacy of CR. There are many other known issues with the 5.7 (I've had 3 now, and have had issues with all of them, with only one over 100k miles). They are well known to go through water pumps, quickly, the valley coolant leak (two of mine had this) and is a pain to repair, cam tower leaks (mostly early years), spark plug tube seals (all of mine had this, though, its really not much of an issue, just an annoyance), valve cover oil leaks (again not huge problem), and many of them kill starters easily (fortunately I never had this issue). Not a bad unreliable motor, but not great either. The "Oh it's a Land Cruiser, it'll go 400,000 miles with just oil changes" which was most certainly the case with the 100 series (at least regarding the drive train) just isn't the case with the 200.

 

[Todd780]

GR Corolla Manual

https://www.motor1.com/news/729265/toyota-gr-corolla-warranty-claims-weird-reasons/

2023 Toyota GR Corolla Engine's Colossal Failure Is a $32,000 Bill You Don't Want

A dealership employee is documenting a catastrophic engine failure on a new GR Corolla, and it hurts to see.

www.thedrive.com

https://www.grcorollaforum.com/threads/blown-engine-car-replaced-under-lemon-law.3707/

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

First off, I'm a Toyota fanboy through and through. I'm a car nut and I have a bad habit of owning lots of vehicles. I currently own a 1st gen Tundra and have owned a 200 series, a second gen Tundra, a GX 460 and 470, several Prius', 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen Tacomas, more 5th gen 4runners than I can count (most reliable vehicle on the planet in my opinion), a 1st gen 4runner on 35s and 6 inch lift with solid front axle, etc. I'm very experienced in Toyota needless to say, and do all my own work on vehicles.

Hang on, I gotta pretend to be a Toyota hater for this joke:

If they are so reliable and long-lasting why'd you have to buy so many of them?

I am kidding of course, I love Toyota's contributions to the 4x4 world. All jokes aside, no I don't think Toyota has lost it's mojo (though I am sorry for your bad luck with some of yours and tend to agree that the Taco drivetrain was not the shining star of the release)

My perspective is that every car company has flubs - the old Tacoma frames are an example, but so are Ford's tire debacle or the Pinto issue, or Volkswagen's Dieselgate, or the massive airbag issue that hit so many of them. I try not to judge a car company for it's misses because they all have them of varying degrees.

But Ford tried to cover up the Pinto, and dodged responsibility on the roll over caused by the tires too.

Volkswagen was forced through an extensive court process before the problem was addressed with Dieselgate.

The massive airbag issue has been a debate around recall now for years, with new ones still coming forward.

The Tacoma frames were all replaced by Toyota at no cost to the owners, other than not having their truck for a few days.

So has Toyota lost it's Mojo? It depends on how they respond to the V8 problem, but if past performance is any example I think we'll see their mojo show up in how they make this right for the consumers.

All that being said, I wouldn't necessarily buy a Tundra or LC today. The blip of the issues needs to be reliably and demonstrably fixed, but I think they will do that eventually at which time these will be great rigs. That doesn't matter though if you are on a trip today, and this fix doesn't come for another 6 months to a year, which is why I wouldn't go for one today.

And, I agree with you that a return to simple, reliable workhorses would be desirable - but I'm not sure they'd be allowed with so many regulatory issues to navigate on the design side. The Grenadier's story is an example of that - my $60k bare-bones workhorse 4x4 is now a $100k+ purchase with more electronics than I prefer, but there wasn't really a way around that and I think they implemented as best as they could (and it's a fine vehicle). The point is that these regulatory requirements increase complexity, and increased complexity almost guarantees an increased failure risk, so I think we're seeing some of that in the industry too (I could literally write an essay on that but this response is long enough as it is!).

 

[Mack M]

Hang on, I gotta pretend to be a Toyota hater for this joke:

If they are so reliable and long-lasting why'd you have to buy so many of them?

I am kidding of course, I love Toyota's contributions to the 4x4 world. All jokes aside, no I don't think Toyota has lost it's mojo (though I am sorry for your bad luck with some of yours and tend to agree that the Taco drivetrain was not the shining star of the release)

My perspective is that every car company has flubs - the old Tacoma frames are an example, but so are Ford's tire debacle or the Pinto issue, or Volkswagen's Dieselgate, or the massive airbag issue that hit so many of them. I try not to judge a car company for it's misses because they all have them of varying degrees.

But Ford tried to cover up the Pinto, and dodged responsibility on the roll over caused by the tires too.

Volkswagen was forced through an extensive court process before the problem was addressed with Dieselgate.

The massive airbag issue has been a debate around recall now for years, with new ones still coming forward.

The Tacoma frames were all replaced by Toyota at no cost to the owners, other than not having their truck for a few days.

So has Toyota lost it's Mojo? It depends on how they respond to the V8 problem, but if past performance is any example I think we'll see their mojo show up in how they make this right for the consumers.

All that being said, I wouldn't necessarily buy a Tundra or LC today. The blip of the issues needs to be reliably and demonstrably fixed, but I think they will do that eventually at which time these will be great rigs. That doesn't matter though if you are on a trip today, and this fix doesn't come for another 6 months to a year, which is why I wouldn't go for one today.

And, I agree with you that a return to simple, reliable workhorses would be desirable - but I'm not sure they'd be allowed with so many regulatory issues to navigate on the design side. The Grenadier's story is an example of that - my $60k bare-bones workhorse 4x4 is now a $100k+ purchase with more electronics than I prefer, but there wasn't really a way around that and I think they implemented as best as they could (and it's a fine vehicle). The point is that these regulatory requirements increase complexity, and increased complexity almost guarantees an increased failure risk, so I think we're seeing some of that in the industry too (I could literally write an essay on that but this response is long enough as it is!).

That's a great perspective. I agree that Toyota will certainly take care of you better than any other manufacturer when things do go wrong. Thanks for the response!

 

[SDDiver5]

Hang on, I gotta pretend to be a Toyota hater for this joke:

If they are so reliable and long-lasting why'd you have to buy so many of them?

I am kidding of course, I love Toyota's contributions to the 4x4 world. All jokes aside, no I don't think Toyota has lost it's mojo (though I am sorry for your bad luck with some of yours and tend to agree that the Taco drivetrain was not the shining star of the release)

My perspective is that every car company has flubs - the old Tacoma frames are an example, but so are Ford's tire debacle or the Pinto issue, or Volkswagen's Dieselgate, or the massive airbag issue that hit so many of them. I try not to judge a car company for it's misses because they all have them of varying degrees.

But Ford tried to cover up the Pinto, and dodged responsibility on the roll over caused by the tires too.

Volkswagen was forced through an extensive court process before the problem was addressed with Dieselgate.

The massive airbag issue has been a debate around recall now for years, with new ones still coming forward.

The Tacoma frames were all replaced by Toyota at no cost to the owners, other than not having their truck for a few days.

So has Toyota lost it's Mojo? It depends on how they respond to the V8 problem, but if past performance is any example I think we'll see their mojo show up in how they make this right for the consumers.

All that being said, I wouldn't necessarily buy a Tundra or LC today. The blip of the issues needs to be reliably and demonstrably fixed, but I think they will do that eventually at which time these will be great rigs. That doesn't matter though if you are on a trip today, and this fix doesn't come for another 6 months to a year, which is why I wouldn't go for one today.

And, I agree with you that a return to simple, reliable workhorses would be desirable - but I'm not sure they'd be allowed with so many regulatory issues to navigate on the design side. The Grenadier's story is an example of that - my $60k bare-bones workhorse 4x4 is now a $100k+ purchase with more electronics than I prefer, but there wasn't really a way around that and I think they implemented as best as they could (and it's a fine vehicle). The point is that these regulatory requirements increase complexity, and increased complexity almost guarantees an increased failure risk, so I think we're seeing some of that in the industry too (I could literally write an essay on that but this response is long enough as it is!).

Great perspective.

 

[TLar25]

I don't doubt it, though I question the efficacy of CR. There are many other known issues with the 5.7 (I've had 3 now, and have had issues with all of them, with only one over 100k miles). They are well known to go through water pumps, quickly, the valley coolant leak (two of mine had this) and is a pain to repair, cam tower leaks (mostly early years), spark plug tube seals (all of mine had this, though, its really not much of an issue, just an annoyance), valve cover oil leaks (again not huge problem), and many of them kill starters easily (fortunately I never had this issue). Not a bad unreliable motor, but not great either. The "Oh it's a Land Cruiser, it'll go 400,000 miles with just oil changes" which was most certainly the case with the 100 series (at least regarding the drive train) just isn't the case with the 200.

I would say the 4.7 V8 has just as many common issues as the 5.7 cracked/leaking exhaust manifolds, leaking valve covers, timing belt/water pump every 90k miles (not really an issue but an inconvenience compared to a timing chain ) secondary air injection system issues on vvti models, a very expensive brake booster system prone to failures on some models (not really a 4.7 issue but an issue on 100 series and 120 series and 1gen tundra/Sequoia with 4.7's) heater T failures that can seize your engine (still an issue on early year 5.7's afaik) and tons of other things I'm sure I'm missing. Just like any manufacturer there are going to be plenty of problems/failures, but I would say relative to most other brands, a Toyota still provides more reliability and a longer lifespan. There have always been lots of problems though with their 4x4's, rusty frames, failing LBJ's, brake calipers seizing up frequently, blown head gaskets on the 3.0 V6 and on the 4.0 V6, failed timing chain guides on the 22re, etc. etc. it's easy to have rose colored glasses I think. They usually iron out a lot of these issues eventually, and yeah the 5th Gen 4runner is a great example of a dead reliable vehicle that just needs oil and gas. I have a 4th Gen V8 4runner that has over 300k miles and I trust it to drive anywhere anytime. And yes there are several Toyotas with the 4.7L V8 that have driven 1 million miles, but I'm also aware of several with the 5.7L V8 that have done the same I never had issues from the one 2nd Gen Tundra I've owned, but I didn't have it very long. I plan on getting into a 200 series at some point.

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[plainjaneFJC]

For fun:

First off, I'm a Toyota fanboy through and through. I'm a car nut and I have a bad habit of owning lots of vehicles. I currently own a 1st gen Tundra and have owned a 200 series, a second gen Tundra, a GX 460 and 470, several Prius', 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen Tacomas, more 5th gen 4runners than I can count (most reliable vehicle on the planet in my opinion), a 1st gen 4runner on 35s and 6 inch lift with solid front axle, etc. I'm very experienced in Toyota needless to say, and do all my own work on vehicles.

However, when it came time for me to buy my next overland rig, which I plan on taking to Europe, northern Africa, and eventually the Pan-American highway, I didn't choose Toyota. I was on the fence and about to purchase a new third gen Tundra (a 24 model year), as I assumed that all the bugs had been worked out. I never try to purchase the brand new model year vehicle for teething issues, and had trusted Toyota to work out most of those issues. I drove the new tundra and was impressed, however, I did notice the two models that I drove both had less than 5 miles on them and had a strange vibration from the motor while in drive at a stop, and thus I went a different route and purchased a new 2024 Ford F250 4x4.

I've owned a couple Fords throughout my life and I've never been super impressed with them, but also not disappointed. However, after being disappointed with my 3rd gen Tacoma (poorly engineered drivetrain in my opinion), having issues with my 200, and GX 460 (timing cover on both, both low mileage, head gasket on 460 and radiator on 200 and oil in both spark plug tubes, as well as water pump on the 200); as well as seeing this video that mentions a large growing concern about the 5.7 that everyone held in such high regard: I'm losing faith.

This, as well as the most recent Toyota Tundra engine issue (I feel fortunate I didn't buy the Tundra, as this info came out just a few months after I bought the Ford). I feel like Toyota is losing what we all love about Toyotas: the fact that they are simple, super well-made machines that are going to last a very long time, if given the appropriate maintenance.

I think the fifth gen 4runner with it's nearly indestructible 5 speed trans and as reliable as they come, 1-GR-FE motor, is the apex of Toyota, and from what I've seen, the quality of the new TNGA stuff seems less so. Inversely, I feel like the quality of the F-250 I recently purchased is an improvement over my former Ford models.

I do believe only the Ford Superduty's fall into this, but as moch as I love Toyota, if I'm buying a new vehicle to drive around the world (even given the parts limitations), the Superduty, with it's solid front axle, simple pushrod motor with multiport fuel injection, is the best, most reliable choice. Mine for example, in the base XL trim, with locking rear diff, extended cab, 8 foot bed, was $48k out the door.

I hope Toyota gets back to what made them great, simple, reliable vehicles, but it doesn't look that way. The complexity of the new Tundra for example (two injection systems, two air filters, turbos, electric waste gates on those turbos, etc), is not a vehicle I would feel comfortable driving much further outside the confines of North America.

I know different models not in the North American market don't fall into this, but here, I think Toyota is no longer the answer.

Is my logic on this wrong?

Expectations are definitely higher with the Toyotas. I’ve owned quite a few- have 2 now, also owned the current gen super duty and f150. The Fords are nice but I don’t expect them to hold up as well at the 200k mark as a Toyota.

 

[plainjaneFJC]

I think the big difference between Toyota and the domestics is how they handle issues when they do arise. The new Tundra they are going to spend a fortune replacing motors- they owned it. I had an ecoboost that had known head issues and they just keep patching them together to get you out of the warranty period then tell you to pound sand- had the same thing on a company issued Silverado when they all have the known issue with the lifters- they don’t engineer a new part they just fix stuff until the warranty is up.

 

[Kennykustom]

I went in to my local Toyota dealer.
5 new vehicles for sale. Total.


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