Van heating thread

[Petrolburner]

This has been an educational thread. I'm less shy of the vent free heaters especially after this page http://roadslesstraveled.us/rv-heater/

I have a forced air furnace in my pop up Aliner. It's small, has no canvas and is pretty well insulated on all sides except the floor. The sound it makes when it cycles on and off during the night brings a smile to my face if I'm half asleep. It's the first camper I've ever had and having heat in the middle of nowhere is just awesome. It seem to just sip propane and hardly makes a dent in the two 6v Costco golf cart batteries I have. 7 nights of camping in the high desert and running the heat liberally burned 1.8 gallons of propane. At $2 a gallon I decided to keep the camper as warm as I wanted with no thought given to the economy. I'm tempted to get a Mr Heater buddy heater to keep the van warm while we're out skiing or riding motos so that it's warm when we get back. The pop out side windows should allow plenty of fresh air in.

 

[Alpentalic]

Found this just a day beyond a year of the original post...
Do you still have these?

FWIW, I've got two Espar coolant heaters for sale from a Sprinter. The guys on the Sprinter forum have figured out how to make these work off just a switch. So might be a good option for someone's van heat. This is what I use to heat my Sprinter.

Normally about $1200 -ish new.

Copy of the ad.

 

[Mwilliamshs]

I'd PM Cole.

 

[Petrolburner]

This has been an educational thread. I'm less shy of the vent free heaters especially after this page http://roadslesstraveled.us/rv-heater/

I have a forced air furnace in my pop up Aliner. It's small, has no canvas and is pretty well insulated on all sides except the floor. The sound it makes when it cycles on and off during the night brings a smile to my face if I'm half asleep. It's the first camper I've ever had and having heat in the middle of nowhere is just awesome. It seem to just sip propane and hardly makes a dent in the two 6v Costco golf cart batteries I have. 7 nights of camping in the high desert and running the heat liberally burned 1.8 gallons of propane. At $2 a gallon I decided to keep the camper as warm as I wanted with no thought given to the economy. I'm tempted to get a Mr Heater buddy heater to keep the van warm while we're out skiing or riding motos so that it's warm when we get back. The pop out side windows should allow plenty of fresh air in.

So I did exactly that and got the mid sized Mr. Buddy heater, the Portable Buddy. I also got an 11# propane tank because of the smaller footprint compared to the 20# tank and they were on sale at my local propane shop. I also got one of the 10 ft hoses for some flexibility in where each unit is positioned.

The other day we went to a hot spring. It was a popular one and no alcohol was allowed in the pool. My GF and I spun the front seats backwards, cranked up the heater and drank a 6 pack while changing into swim wear. I left the heater on low and when we got back to the van it was nice and toasty. I've not slept in the van with the heater on, but I imagine the low setting will be just fine when the temp outside is around freezing. If it's 45*F out, I'll have to adjust the temperature with the windows. I have pop out windows on each side of the van, a MaxxAir fan in the ceiling with a thermostat, and vent visor windows up front. The downside to the propane heater in the van is condensation, especially in combination with me keeping a snowmobile in the van and it dripping water on the floor. Having the inside of the windshield frost up sucks when the temp is below freezing.

My van is only lightly insulated and has Reflectix window shades .

 

[Backcountry Pursuit]

Everest Star in Westfalia interior. Obviously not the exact same van (different refrigerators, etc) but c'mon, seen one vanagon westfalia interior and you've seen most of them.

Did you ever decide on/install a heater? Cold weather is coming!

 

[luthj]

This is an old thread, but just in case...

The standard for fuel consumption, noise, and power usage, would be the Espar D2/D4 air heaters. Other than similar webasto units they have no comparison to anything else on the market.

A D2 has no problem getting my sprinter 40F above ambient with no window coverings. The sprinter body is 20ft long, 6ft tall, and 6ft wide with half the windows installed. Insulation is 2" of closed cell foam and thinsulate in the walls, and 1/2" polyiso on the floor.

Check out this site, great prices, fast shipping. You can get a complete D2 with install kit shipped to your door for less than 1k with several extras. The most basic kit without altitude sensor is only $700.

http://www.heatso.com/

They have a 10L tank for vehicles without a diesel fuel tank to pull from.

You can expect thousands of hours of trouble free service from one of these heaters. Get a high altitude sensor if you are using it for more than an hour or two above 6000ft altitude.

The D2/D4 use very little electrical power. They do not cycle on and off. Instead they adjust fan speed and heater output to maintain a constant temperature. They are quiet, especially inside. With no cycling on/off to wake you up either.

There are Remote controls available! There is no comparison to the thermostats used by most RV air heaters. If you like a full functioned handheld remote can be added. With a large range, you can use it warm your van from the comfort of your bed, or your house.

Sorry, not trying to sound like a Espar salesperson. They just make fantastic heaters. :coffeedrink:

 

[philos]

I'd probably justify an Espar or similar if I didn't live in SoCal.

Mister Buddy is my buddy in the mean time, and I sure do love it still. I also love that it's portable, so cold mornings in my studio are nicer now too.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Backcountry Pursuit]

It's not a terribly old thread. I am one of the few people that actually uses the search function and reads old threads before starting a new one. The op seems to have a really thorough grasp of efficiency calculations and I was curious what he went with as it appeared he was leaning towards the Everest Star.

Does anyone have any experience using the gas model Espar like the B4? More money, but could pull from my tank as I have a 6.8 V10. I am not ready to buy a heater yet, but I am doing the fuel tank mod for 4WD in the near future and it would be a great time to install the fuel pick up since I'll have the tank out if I decide to go that route.

I guess I hadn't come across they offered a separate small tank for the diesel model. Learned something new! Thanks luthj!

Trying to figure out which one I will end up with as I plan all the aspects of my build.

 

[luthj]

The B4 is just as reliable as the D2/D4 as far as I know. It uses many of the same parts. It has a slightly different ignition design, and different fuel pump, and different programming on the controller.

The D2 will run for 16 hours continuously on high, and use about a gallon of diesel fuel. So a 3 gallon tank would last quite a while depending on your heating needs. I have heard that the D2/D4 will also burn kerosene if needed. Just about any small engine fuel tank will work. You could just take a jerry can and drop the fuel line into the tank through the lid. The pump will self prime and lift fuel a few feet if I remember correctly.

Here is some specs.

http://www.pro-west.ca/pdfs/airtronic_D2-D4-D5_spec_sheet.pdf

 

[Mwilliamshs]

First, it's not exactly ancient and I appreciate those who use the search. Welcome aboard, Backcountry Pursuit.

Second, luthj's claims like, "The standard for fuel consumption, noise, and power usage, would be the Espar D2/D4 air heaters. Other than similar webasto units they have no comparison to anything else on the market" are HIGHLY indicative they have not read this thread and frankly, aren't all that familiar with long-term use of the Espar or Webasto units and have no real understanding of power efficiency since they describe a unit that's always running as superior to one that uses power only as needed.

Third, I bought but have not yet installed the Everest Star 8012. The Everest Star 7900 is installed in the Lance cabover I split with my folks' and it's been flawless. Its power consumption is nearly perfectly inline with Atwood's claims although this is not the low-amp model.

 

[Bbasso]

Last winter I upgraded to the Espar D4, like the best investment I've put into my van.
Set the thermostat and forget about the weather outside.
Rather simple to install too.
Just has a hefty price tag. But it's worth it, just press a button (twice) and done.

 

[luthj]

First, it's not exactly ancient and I appreciate those who use the search. Welcome aboard, Backcountry Pursuit.

Second, luthj's claims like, "The standard for fuel consumption, noise, and power usage, would be the Espar D2/D4 air heaters. Other than similar webasto units they have no comparison to anything else on the market" are HIGHLY indicative they have not read this thread and frankly,...

I did read the whole thread. Comparisons of power consumption should be made on a per/btu basis. Let's compare the D4 to the Everest heater mentioned earlier.

On low the Everest unit makes 9120BTU/Hr using 1.8A. That is 5066BTU/amp
On High the D4 makes 10,200BTU/hr using 2.0A. That is 5100BTU/amp.

On low the D4s output efficiency is 5,666btu/amp.

The D4 makes 13,650 Btu/HR on boost, which is less than the 19,500 BUT the Star 7900 makes.

The Everest Star is approximately 20x8x11” and weighs 25lbs. Total volume is 1,760 cubic inches.
The D4 is approximately 14x5.5x6” and weighs 10lbs (I am not sure if this includes the ducts). Total volume is 462 cubic inches. Ducts will add to this, but they are installation dependent.

The D4 makes 10,200BTU/hr on high using 0.1gal/hr of diesel. Diesel has 139,000 BTU/gal. So the power in is 13,900btu/hr. Efficiency is %73 which is comparable to the Everest unit as indicated in this thread.

Let's compare fuel costs. Currently residential propane is $2.36/gal and diesel is $2.39/gal

Diesel has 139,000 btu/gal 139,000/2.39= 58,158BTU/dollar
Propane has 91,000btu gal 91,000/2.36= 38,559BTU/dollar


Reliability comparisons are hard to guage. When installed correctly, the Espar units are known to exceed 2k hours. At some point the fan motors bearings will wear out and need replaced. Poor fuel, bad installation, or running at high altitude without the sensor, can cause them to coke up and require cleaning. The newest ceramic glow plugs are purportedly good for the life of the heater. Depending on the number of starts, the heater may need a new glow screen on occasion.

The propane units do not suffer from coking or similar issues. They will eventually wear out the fan motors (I do not know the expected lifespan). Ignition components may on occasion need replacement, but I have no firsthand experience with these heaters.

 

[dwh]

Nice. You left out purchase cost in your analysis.

How about a TCO comparison using 2k hours as the baseline life of unit?

 

[luthj]

Nice. You left out purchase cost in your analysis.

How about a TCO comparison using 2k hours as the baseline life of unit?

Espar D4 purchase cost $1,141
Everest Star 7900 purchase cost $700-500
Fuel cost assuming average of 9660 BTU/hr output at 2k hours
2,000hrx9660=19,320kBTU

D4/D2; 19,320kBTU/139,000BTU/gal x 2.39$/gal = $332
Everest 19,320kBTU/91,000BTU/gal x 2.36$/gal = $501

Total cost at 2k hours
D4 = $1,473
Everest Star = $1,205-1,005

Now, I did use residential propane costs. If you have a fixed propane tank, or use the 20 portable tanks, your cost may be higher.
The D4 may also need a high altitude sensor which would add 200$

If you don’t need the extra capacity, the D2 is quite a bit cheaper. So for the same amount of BTUs (the D2 would have more hours, but this is for comparison purposes) the D2 would be as follows.
D2 purchase cost $650
Fuel cost for 19,320kBTU=$332
Total cost = $982 (not counting a high altitude sensor if needed)

So the Everest Star and D4 are similar in this comparison. If your rig already has a propane system and you have the space it is a viable option.

The D4/D2 can be more flexible in mounting as they vent through the floor in most installations, so there are pros/cons. The differences in design make them sort of apples/oranges though. The D4/D2 are much smaller, and don’t require through wall venting. (Can the Everest unit be vented through the floor?) They do require some more work to install.

I am a light sleeper, so the gradual speed changes, and lack of on/off cycling in the Espar units is preferable to units that cycle on/off.

For those needing a compact forced air heater that runs on propane, The propex heaters are nice, and have similar installation requirements and power usage as the Espar heaters.

 

[dwh]

Well done. Mikey likes math.

Last time I filled the 5g horizontal tank mounted under the side if my van, about 3 weeks ago, I paid $2.25/gal.

Those 5g trade in deals at 7-11 at 30 or 40 bucks a pop are a huge ripoff.

My van has a s Suburban NT12K and it's horrid. Fan comes on and runs for a minute, then burner ignites and the blast furnace effect overheats the van in a couple of minutes till the thermostat notices, then the burner shuts down and the fan keeps blowing for IIRC 3 minutes. It's a window van so it cools off pretty quick, so 20 minutes later it's another 5 minutes of the blast furnace effect. Rinse and repeat.

It's a hog and I never use it except to give it a quarterly checkout.

When I need heat...usually only in the early mornings, I use a couple heat diffusers (a.k.a. simmer plates) on the propane stove. What the hell, I'm making coffee or tea anyway...