What is the BEST....High Altitude Solution for Heating?

[biotect]

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Also check out some of Klaus Hünerkopf's other very beautiful expedition vehicle interiors, at http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/allradmobile , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/allradmobile/mercedes-benz-zetros-3/galerie , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/allradmobile/mercedes-benz-zetros-ii/galerie , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/allradmobile/scania-expeditionsmobil/galerie , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/allradmobile/mercedes-benz-unimog/galerie , and http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/allradmobile/mercedes-benz-unimog-2/galerie . And so too, see their more "mainstream" mobile homes at http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/wohnmobile , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/wohnmobile/prevost-xl-ii-45ft/galerie , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/wohnmobile/prevost-40-ft/galerie , http://www.huenerkopf.de/en/wohnmobile/prevost-besprechungsmobil/galerie , etc.


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3. Arctic-Capable 6x6 Tatra Conversion


Here is another Arctic-capable 6x6 expedition vehicle, a Tatra converted by Russians to serve as the base for photography and film, much of their work taking place during the winter. After the "build" segment, the first video has lots of footage of the Tatra plowing through snow.


[video=vimeo;76349851]http://vimeo.com/76349851[/video]
[video=vimeo;75318928]http://vimeo.com/75318928[/video] [video=vimeo;96560674]http://vimeo.com/96560674[/video]
[video=vimeo;86395394]http://vimeo.com/86395394[/video] [video=vimeo;81259161]http://vimeo.com/81259161[/video]


And here are some still shots of the same vehicle:






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[biotect]

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See http://dikiy.me , http://dikiy.me/about-us/ , http://dikiy.me/portfolio-category/evenkia-2/ , http://dikiy.me/dikiy-tatra-birth/ , http://dikiy.me/zimnik-behind-the-scenes/ , http://dikiy.me/zimnik/ , http://dikiy.me/portfolio-category/photo-stories/ , http://dikiy.me/evenkia-oleg-the-hunter/ , http://dikiy.me/evenkias-dikiy/ , http://dikiy.me/evenkias-dikiy/ , http://dikiy.me/the-carnival-of-the-animals-2/ , http://dikiy.me/winter-with-icelandic-horse/ , http://dikiy.me/portfolio/tolting-horse/ , http://dikiy.me/category/blog/ , http://dikiy.me/behind-the-polar-circle-behind-the-civilization-diupkun-and-harpich/ , http://dikiy.me/tura-cherenda-beautiful-taiga/ , http://dikiy.me/krasnojarsk-tura-winter-road/ , and http://dikiy.me/vilnius-krasnoyarsk-5500km/ , http://dikiy.me/on-the-border/ .

The photography on the dikiy.me website is astonishingly beautiful, and the website is well worth a visit for that reason alone.

On the other hand, maybe you have to be Canadian or Russian to really love snow-swept arctic emptiness?






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In short, if a back-up fuel-fired heater were necessary to supplement the electric panel/film radiators, what would you recommend?

Again, taking into account:

(a) the possible requirements of extreme altitude, namely, 15,000 feet on the Tibetan plateau,

as well as

(b) the requirements of arctic winter temperatures, which can get as cold as −60 °F (−51.1 °C)


All best wishes,



Biotect

 

[NeverEnough]

Traveling, but a quick reply. I use supplemental heat at 20 above zero, not below. But the most important concept is knowing what your heat loss is for any given living space, then come up with enough heat to compensate for that. As long as you know the properties of the enclosure and the worst case external conditions, you can do the math. But you're going to need either an extremely well- insulated shell or a very high output heating system to deal with the condipns described. And I'd be most worried about my truck starting.

 

[dwh]

Just read this thread for the first time. A couple of thoughts...



I'm pretty sure that a Fisher Panda uses the same Kubota engine as that which was used in the Hackey's generator, which IIRC they bought from Next Generation Power Engineering.

(Personally, I prefer the design of the NextGen unit over the FP for various reasons, and I believe the NextGen is half the price. For one thing, the NextGen uses the Markon Alternator, which is a sweet alternator.)

Kubota does make some of their small diesel engines with turbochargers (though not the *really* small ones - like the EA series). Still, it should be no big deal to have NextGen whip up a genset using a Kubota engine with a turbo - the smallest of which appears to be the BG/O3-M Series, which is a 35hp unit as opposed to the 7hp unit in the NextGen and FP - driving some suitable alternator:

http://www.kubotaengine.com/assets/documents/BG Full Line.pdf

It may even be possible to just buy one of the Kubota brand gensets with a turbo, but I don't find that mentioned in any of the product literature:

http://www.kubotaengine.com/products/generators/gl-series



For completeness sake...

Eric Badger pulled off a neat high-altitude hack for his diesel stove:

"The stove was clearly designed for operation at sea-level and thus the mixture was almost always going to be too rich for where we are. The follow-on model of stove has accommodation for a switch to run at higher altitude, but that is a significant investment. A bit of investigation revealed that one of the potentiometers (R13) on our stove control board was the mixture control, adjusting the periodicity of the fuel pump strokes. As set from the factory it was 69k ohms and yielded 44 pump strokes per minute at full, while 87k yielded a 5000ft friendly 38 stokes per minute. We removed the potentiometer and replaced it with a fixed 70k resistor plus a dial potentiometer calibrated to altitude settings where we dial in altitude before firing up the stove."

http://www.badgertrek.com/sportsmobile/appliances.shtml

[EDIT: Forgot to mention, it should be possible to tie in a barometric pressure sensor and automate the adjustment.]


It's still just leaning out the mixture of course, and no doubt Charlie's Unicat Webasto hack would achieve the same thing in a similar fashion. What I like both about the Badger Hack and the Unicat Hack is that they are variable rate, rather than two fixed rates which you get with the dual pump setup.

Of course, there's gotta be some limit, so who knows if either the stove or the heater would work at 15k' when they've been leaned out to a fuel/air ratio in the parts per billion range...

 

[Ozarker]

Biotect,just wanted to thank you for the pages and pages of pictures of vehicles and interiors that have what to do with efficient heat at altitudes? Very nice pics, but why not post in "Other Expedition Vehicles" as a thread so people will find them, the folks in this thread are expecting to see heater solutions, not custom vehicles from your portfolio and many may never visit this thread, which means the off topic posts may never be seen.

 

[dwh]

So a vehicle designed to withstand extreme temperatures needs to have an ICE ("Internal Combustion Engine") suitable for such fuels.

When I worked as an aviation fueler at LAX, our trucks, both the tankers:

And the "hydrant carts":

Had diesel engines. We just ran them on JetA, which is kerosene. The only real difference is that diesel fuel has some oil in it and JetA doesn't. So we'd have to dump a quart of oil in the fuel tanks whenever we filled them up with JetA.

Before each use, we'd have to open a petcock to drain out any water condensation. I used to bring a 1 gallon Coleman fuel container and fill it up with JetA. My Dietz Hurricane Lanterns loved the stuff, and I had to clean soot from the chimneys less frequently.

Or, alternatively, it could just as well be a hybrid with a rmicroturbine range-extender, because turbines tend to be very fuel-flexible, able to burn jet-fuel at one end, and biodiesel at the other.

A jet can be rigged to run on anything. Military jet aircraft have manuals which list alternative fuels that they can run in their engines in a pinch.

But if you are building one from scratch, you can set it up to run on anything that will burn. Hydrogen, petroleum gas, kerosene, gasoline, alcohol - whatever.

 

[dwh]

Also that stairway setup has been done quite a few times. All Terrain Warriors has done in on a few trucks:

Darrin Fink did it on his Mog:

 

[flylow4500]

Biotect: you sure know how to ruin a thread!

 

[Aspire]

Biotect: you sure know how to ruin a thread!

+1

I don't care about arctic trucks. They are nice and impressive and all, but there is no need to take us along on your research trip. That whole post with the cree, for instance, could be summed up as you did in your last paragraph: It is important to have it well insulated and airtight (my comment: But with mechanical ventilation - perhaps even with a heat exchanger). But we are talking about heating at altitude, not necessarily heating at extreme temperatures.

Personally, I'm interested in how to set up a truck heater/water heater (24v) and how to best do that, so it works up high too. There are many (some quite simple) solutions if height is not a problem and you only have to deal with the cold - the most important being insulation and ventilation (yes, you do want ventilation regardless).
But is a truck "separates" system from Webasto better than, say, their Dual Top air/water heater, assuming it is installed properly? Things like that is why I read this thread. You can call it "hacks" and "fixes", but I call those things "solutions", as they solve a problem. It is called engineering, and I don't care about how a particular arctic truck makes people sea sick or have too wide tyres, or such things. Well, at least not in this thread.

Biotect, you would do well if you edited yourself a bit. I know it is a process to you, but you don't have to publish the entire process for all to wade through. A conclusion and a couple of reasons coupled with a photo or two and a couple of links to solutions should be enough.

 

[biotect]

OK, understood.

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[dwh]

You can call it "hacks" and "fixes", but I call those things "solutions", as they solve a problem. It is called engineering,[...]

Technically, *I'm* the one who used the term hack. Where I come from, a neat hack is a good thing.

I don't know just how much "engineering" went into Unicat's fuel bypass needle valve "solution", but I sort of doubt the whole German engineering team pulled an all-nighter with CAD and design studies on that one. More likely someone just came up with a neat hack and they looked it over and decided it would work.

 

[campo]

Hi
It's almost impossible to read this complete tread and get into the subject with you after your long experiences and reports.
But maybe it is interesting for you to know that I can maybe give some answers on the questions that still might be open.
I know very well the Eberspächer/Espar, Webasto and other products.
Also the different altitude versions and their evolutions over the years.
I have done a lot of testing and decided to build my own RV truck.
It is rather new and equipped for warm summers and cold winters.
Maybe I can present it in some words. It is a new MAN 13.290 BL 4x4 with the Euro5 EEV engine.
The box is 5,40 cm including a motor bike garage.
Insulation is sidewalls 40mm roof and floor are 65mm, double insulated windows.
It was built by myself and I calculated with -35°C to -40 °C in winter and +45°C in summer.
As heaters systems I have installed on board (be prepared the list is quite long):
Eberspächer Hydronic D5 commercial 24V with the external electronic altitude compensation.
Eberspächer Airtronic D2 24V also with this altitude box.
In the Driver cab I have the standard MAN Airtronic D4S
On the engine is a DEFA 230V 700Watt electrical heater.
On the Hydronic 5 there are calorifier 25 litres, 1 convector, 4 helios 2000 blowerheaters and 2 internal tank loops with a 3/2 regulation valve.
The valves to empty these tanks are heated with 24V heat wire.
Inside the 2 external tanks (grey and black water) is also an emergency 24V electrical heat system.
The truck engine fuel is heated with a 300W thermoline, the 2 fuel fiter systems are also heated with 24V.
And the Eberspächer fuel lines are covered with 24V electrical heat wire.

Of course there is also some AC systems but that is not the subject here.

Regards Campo

 

[biotect]

Hi Ozarker, Aspire, flyflow4500,

I deleted all of the most recent posts about Antarctica, but not the earlier ones, because other participants responded to those. So removing them did not seem right. I hope this helps.

Those looking for the deleted posts about Antarctic vehicles and high-altitude can find them re-located on a new, different thread, titled "Camper Thermal Engineering for Extreme Cold & High-Altitude: Arctic Antarctica Tibet", at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...mp-High-Altitude-Arctic-Antarctica-Tibet/page. That thread starts out by reduplicating the posts that appeared here in this thread, from NeverEnough's post #69 onwards. So there is about a page of overlap. That thread then continues with the Antarctica posts that were deleted from this thread.

All best wishes,


Biotect

 

[OVRLND]

Biotect,

Thank you for reduplicating the posts instead of just deleting them.
I enjoy the research and info you have offered in this and other threads.

Some want simple. Others may want to swim in the info to determine what is best for them.
It seems that the "BEST-High-Altitude-Solution-for-Heating" was an open ended question, that may legitimately have led to arctic trucks ... The question took us elsewhere without complaint.

Barry

 

[dinoevo]

A lot of interesting tech talk here and I even saw somewhere the mention of the Espar heater system we used.

Just want to report back from our experience so far. Even if you are not suppose to run the heater for a longer period of time in such a high altitude (not even with the high-altitude kit), it served us well at around 16000ft for a few days. It had sometimes trouble to start in the cold morning, but once running there wasn't any issue and for sure it was nice to have a warm interior and hot running-water!