Why does "size matter" in N.America???
- Thread starter 4Rescue
- Start date
reece146
Automotive Artist
How dare you attempt to infringe upon my freedom! I'll drink the water whenever I want, to he!! with everyone else!
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reece146
Automotive Artist
Exactly. Ultimately we are all just maggots in the bottom of the dumpster on the way to the incinerator.
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RMP&O
Expedition Leader
I am all for cutting back, less impact on the environment ect ect ect
Thing is we are addicted to oil. It is in everything around you not just your fuel tank. This computer I am using, without oil I wouldn't be using it.
It is not going to make a difference if some people drive vehicles that get better mpgs. We are going to use it up until it is gone. There is no real reason to make it last longer. The sooner we use it up the better IMHO. Then we can get on with using something else, hopeful a resource that is renewable. A 100yrs from now there will still be 4x4s they just may not be powered by oil.
bftank
Explorer
i deleted my smart alecky response because i think this thread has enough of that already.
peak oil in my opinion is about as realistic as global climate change.(yep that sound you heard was a can of worms being opened:snorkel
. so many people make statements like imbt's, without understanding the process of oil production. i am not saying that imbt is uninformed i just wanted to clear somethings up.
so lets ask ourselves some questions.
1)where does oil come from?
a)it is a by product of natural deterioration of organic matter.
2)has the earth shown any signs of slowing down the deterioration of organic matter?
a)not that i know of
3)has the oil field workforce been reduced due to lack of product.
a)from what i have read, and experienced, most oilfield workforce reductions, are due to epa, regulations, taxes, economy, etc. not because there is less oil to produce.
when it comes to peak oil, the same thing was said in the 20's and in the 70's. what happened? why have our oil supplies increased instead of diminished? our technology has advanced, and we have gained a better understanding of how the earth works.
why do we not use peanut oil to power our diesel's as rudolph did. we discovered a better, cheaper alternative. we advanced our thinking. this is still going on today. unfortunately, there is so much complexity in the world that it becomes difficult to soak it all in and make good decisions at times. which is one of the reasons why groups such as the epa, mainstream america and politicians, get in the way of actual progress.
i've got news for you america we have had 50mpg cars at least since the 80's, but because they were a little clattery it wasn't good enough for you. 40 mpg hybrids are a joke.
also, and this is not meant in a hateful way, but how many people actually commute to work in an 8mpg fuel guzzler? not many people can afford it. and those that can want the newer ones with better mpg's any ways. i really think the people that do are in a very small minority. and maybe it is because it is all they can afford to buy, i don't know. i don't judge.
rant off.
i do appreciate forums like this that help to educate and clear up some of the complexities of life, in a respectful manner. i find it amazing that this thread has gone on for so long and covered so many different topics without getting locked down due to slander. bravo expedition portal! bravo.
peak oil in my opinion is about as realistic as global climate change.(yep that sound you heard was a can of worms being opened:snorkel
. so many people make statements like imbt's, without understanding the process of oil production. i am not saying that imbt is uninformed i just wanted to clear somethings up.so lets ask ourselves some questions.
1)where does oil come from?
a)it is a by product of natural deterioration of organic matter.
2)has the earth shown any signs of slowing down the deterioration of organic matter?
a)not that i know of
3)has the oil field workforce been reduced due to lack of product.
a)from what i have read, and experienced, most oilfield workforce reductions, are due to epa, regulations, taxes, economy, etc. not because there is less oil to produce.
when it comes to peak oil, the same thing was said in the 20's and in the 70's. what happened? why have our oil supplies increased instead of diminished? our technology has advanced, and we have gained a better understanding of how the earth works.
why do we not use peanut oil to power our diesel's as rudolph did. we discovered a better, cheaper alternative. we advanced our thinking. this is still going on today. unfortunately, there is so much complexity in the world that it becomes difficult to soak it all in and make good decisions at times. which is one of the reasons why groups such as the epa, mainstream america and politicians, get in the way of actual progress.
i've got news for you america we have had 50mpg cars at least since the 80's, but because they were a little clattery it wasn't good enough for you. 40 mpg hybrids are a joke.
also, and this is not meant in a hateful way, but how many people actually commute to work in an 8mpg fuel guzzler? not many people can afford it. and those that can want the newer ones with better mpg's any ways. i really think the people that do are in a very small minority. and maybe it is because it is all they can afford to buy, i don't know. i don't judge.
rant off.
i do appreciate forums like this that help to educate and clear up some of the complexities of life, in a respectful manner. i find it amazing that this thread has gone on for so long and covered so many different topics without getting locked down due to slander. bravo expedition portal! bravo.
78Bronco
Explorer
Sounds like you are in jail for 25 years...lol.
Please support your argument with another option to fossil fuels a little better. We have plenty of oil still but the stock market types lead us to believe otherwise. What other options are available....mining and producing batteries from rare earth elements like lithium doesn't seem viable either.
It is my opinion that the environmentalists want it all one way but provide no actual options besides walking to and fro.
Buliwyf
Viking with a Hammer
Enviromentalists offer no solutions.
Anyone can dream of clean eco cars and electricity. The vast majority of our commuter cars could be electric plug in hybrids if we amp up our nuclear and coal electric plants. We don't need to get rid of large trucks and sports cars. If we clean up our commuter cars, that'll free up gas use in other areas. The power has to come from somewhere.
Kinda how the automobile saved the horse. Now horses are used mostly for recreation. Eventually the gasoline engine will end up the same way. Not in our lifetimes though.
Automobiles aren't going to get much cleaner. Keep in mind that a 2011 Ford F350, 6.8L V10 pollutes less than a early '90s Toyota Tacoma. There is also a turbocharged natural gas version of the 6.8L Ford (about 60-80 Kw) that may pollute less than a Prius. It deosn't get any cleaner than NG.
And we still don't have much of a market for hydraulic accumulators on the drivelines of our trucks. An expensive system Eaton uses on garbage trucks to save fuel cost. It works, very well. But are you willing to pay 4-6000 more per truck?
Our powerplants can still be improved. More newer plants are needed to make such an idea plausible. Coal plants are insane clean with modern technology, and their C02 can be used in algae scrubbers to produce algae for biodiesel (allthough I'm not concerned about C02 at all).
The ability to charge our commuter cars cheaply is going to be the next challenge.
Modern nuclear plants are much safer and the days of huge tower eyesores are long gone.
I don't think we have a single cutting edge nuclear power plant in the US. I think they're all pretty much obsolete at this point. We used to be the leaders in this tech. I'll bet we still are, our Navy reactors are extremely advanced, but we're not using our full potential in nuclear powerplants.
It's all about power, control, and taxes. Noone in power, or making these laws, gives a $%^& about the enviroment. Cleaner cheaper electricity from coal, NG, and Nuclear would give the US people more freedom and be a huge boon to our economy. But such ideas might not gather votes right now. Some would say that we are being limited on purpose for the sake of controlling us.
I can name a few plants for large companies that were never built. They were going to be extremely clean green plants. Lawn garden roofs, solar panels, the whole 9 yards. But people were scared of increased truck traffic in that area. So they used very strict enviromental zoning to limit this. Using "green laws" like this really sets us back. Eventually noone will trust the EPA if they are to remain as a tool for anything other than real enviromental protection.
I don't think any politician or EPA lawmaker is being honest about the true intentions of the laws they pass. Many of those laws are about control, the enviroment is just an excuse, a tool used to gain that control.
And that's sad. We should be concerned about the enviroment, we should try our best to be clean. But we shouldn't use it as a tool to limit progress and eliminate factories and the ability to build clean factories without miles, and miles of red tape. It's extremely hard to build a business, even if one of your primary goals is to be green. Shipping work to China is not enviromentally friendly, noone pollutes more than they do. They are like what we were in the '20's-60's. Dumping and polluting as much as they can.
The technology is out there. Are we even able to use it? Every time a new plant is proposed all the nimbys picture old smokey 1950's era plants and the pollution that came form them and shut the whole idea down. Every tried to run a new power line in California? I suppose CA likes thier brown outs? The EPA is bordering on treason. Not sure how much longer the US will put up with thier antics. Time for a more realistic and scientific organization to replace them.
I'm not really concerned that we'll be running out of oil anytime soon. If ever. Sure, the easy to get to oil is drying up. But there is still plenty in harder to reach spots. The free stuff that squirts out of the ground when you shoot at it, is long gone. There is no free lunch anymore. And this is good for the US, we are the ones skilled at reaching those wells. You don't think the Saudis figured out how to drill for oil on thier own, do you? Running out of the easy oil in the middle east may actually be a good thing (eventually). We buy oil from there because it's easy and cheap.
Still over on the east coast and mid east. I don't see any real air pollution problems. Concentrating more on how we're hurting our water ways with invasive species, and low oxygen zones might be a better topic to waste our breaths on. Finding ways to make massive amounts of clean cheap electricity is going to be key to our future. There is no way any one type will do by itsself. We'll need both coal and nuclear.
As far as cars and trucks go, we're as clean as it's going to get, only other option: stay home.
I use a small car, that gets 30mpg and runs very clean, as often as I can. But harsh weather calls for my big truck (safety and 4x4). Expo travel goes to my big truck. Citys paved about as well as the Rubicon trail, call for my big truck. I'm not going to drive my fragile car in pothole land. I have a little car and a big truck. Small trucks and SUV's are pretty much useless to me. They can't be as economical as the car, and they can't even come close to doing what a big truck can at all.
Anyone can dream of clean eco cars and electricity. The vast majority of our commuter cars could be electric plug in hybrids if we amp up our nuclear and coal electric plants. We don't need to get rid of large trucks and sports cars. If we clean up our commuter cars, that'll free up gas use in other areas. The power has to come from somewhere.
Kinda how the automobile saved the horse. Now horses are used mostly for recreation. Eventually the gasoline engine will end up the same way. Not in our lifetimes though.
Automobiles aren't going to get much cleaner. Keep in mind that a 2011 Ford F350, 6.8L V10 pollutes less than a early '90s Toyota Tacoma. There is also a turbocharged natural gas version of the 6.8L Ford (about 60-80 Kw) that may pollute less than a Prius. It deosn't get any cleaner than NG.
And we still don't have much of a market for hydraulic accumulators on the drivelines of our trucks. An expensive system Eaton uses on garbage trucks to save fuel cost. It works, very well. But are you willing to pay 4-6000 more per truck?
Our powerplants can still be improved. More newer plants are needed to make such an idea plausible. Coal plants are insane clean with modern technology, and their C02 can be used in algae scrubbers to produce algae for biodiesel (allthough I'm not concerned about C02 at all).
The ability to charge our commuter cars cheaply is going to be the next challenge.
Modern nuclear plants are much safer and the days of huge tower eyesores are long gone.
I don't think we have a single cutting edge nuclear power plant in the US. I think they're all pretty much obsolete at this point. We used to be the leaders in this tech. I'll bet we still are, our Navy reactors are extremely advanced, but we're not using our full potential in nuclear powerplants.
It's all about power, control, and taxes. Noone in power, or making these laws, gives a $%^& about the enviroment. Cleaner cheaper electricity from coal, NG, and Nuclear would give the US people more freedom and be a huge boon to our economy. But such ideas might not gather votes right now. Some would say that we are being limited on purpose for the sake of controlling us.
I can name a few plants for large companies that were never built. They were going to be extremely clean green plants. Lawn garden roofs, solar panels, the whole 9 yards. But people were scared of increased truck traffic in that area. So they used very strict enviromental zoning to limit this. Using "green laws" like this really sets us back. Eventually noone will trust the EPA if they are to remain as a tool for anything other than real enviromental protection.
I don't think any politician or EPA lawmaker is being honest about the true intentions of the laws they pass. Many of those laws are about control, the enviroment is just an excuse, a tool used to gain that control.
And that's sad. We should be concerned about the enviroment, we should try our best to be clean. But we shouldn't use it as a tool to limit progress and eliminate factories and the ability to build clean factories without miles, and miles of red tape. It's extremely hard to build a business, even if one of your primary goals is to be green. Shipping work to China is not enviromentally friendly, noone pollutes more than they do. They are like what we were in the '20's-60's. Dumping and polluting as much as they can.
The technology is out there. Are we even able to use it? Every time a new plant is proposed all the nimbys picture old smokey 1950's era plants and the pollution that came form them and shut the whole idea down. Every tried to run a new power line in California? I suppose CA likes thier brown outs? The EPA is bordering on treason. Not sure how much longer the US will put up with thier antics. Time for a more realistic and scientific organization to replace them.
I'm not really concerned that we'll be running out of oil anytime soon. If ever. Sure, the easy to get to oil is drying up. But there is still plenty in harder to reach spots. The free stuff that squirts out of the ground when you shoot at it, is long gone. There is no free lunch anymore. And this is good for the US, we are the ones skilled at reaching those wells. You don't think the Saudis figured out how to drill for oil on thier own, do you? Running out of the easy oil in the middle east may actually be a good thing (eventually). We buy oil from there because it's easy and cheap.
Still over on the east coast and mid east. I don't see any real air pollution problems. Concentrating more on how we're hurting our water ways with invasive species, and low oxygen zones might be a better topic to waste our breaths on. Finding ways to make massive amounts of clean cheap electricity is going to be key to our future. There is no way any one type will do by itsself. We'll need both coal and nuclear.
As far as cars and trucks go, we're as clean as it's going to get, only other option: stay home.
I use a small car, that gets 30mpg and runs very clean, as often as I can. But harsh weather calls for my big truck (safety and 4x4). Expo travel goes to my big truck. Citys paved about as well as the Rubicon trail, call for my big truck. I'm not going to drive my fragile car in pothole land. I have a little car and a big truck. Small trucks and SUV's are pretty much useless to me. They can't be as economical as the car, and they can't even come close to doing what a big truck can at all.
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chasespeed
Explorer
Yep, I will second that. I work for a mechanical contractor, working in remote locations, cell towers, stations, pumping stations, whatever. We have several Quigleys in our fleet. I love my Quigley, 2011 Chevy w/2inch lift.... rides almost as nice as my wifes car. I would PREFER taking MY truck to some of these sites, BUT, I need the volume, and secured storage, and tanks that I have in the van, that I will NOT permanently rig in my truck...
If it gets tough, well, we have quads, and sleds... there is also air transport...
I know we are past this... Just wanted to add my 2 cents.
As far as"environmentalists".... they are just a full of crap as the politicians.... "Not in my backyard" So sick and tired, of people offering a solution, or, an attempt at a solution... THEN, the environmentalists shoot it down... get off oil.... BUT, you put up that wind farm, it might disturb the mirgratory patterns of the bird/butterfly etc. Gdet off oil, but, dont put that solar farm where it will be seen. Get off oil, but, dont you DARE consider building a nuke plant. Get off oil, BUT, putting that NEW N/G plant in, will be just as harmful as the 50 y/o oil/coal plant..... SO... okay... tell them, you are all for just turning the power off... hell, that is the BEST solution is it not? They will look at you with this blank stare... what about t.v. internet, blah blah... see how long it takes them to get to important things, like HEAT, REFRIGERATION, COOKING, and SANITATION.
I saw a bumper sticker a couple weeks ago... bunch of hippies, dreads and all people... NOT joking.... driving an Excursion with a bumper sticker, "reduce our dependency on oil"... Yeah, I generalize them all as hypocrites.... I havent come across any that are genuine.
Its not just the US that is blissfully stupid and ignorant. I have been on every continent excpet for Antarctica, and I can say, I have seen examples of this crap all over. Human nature is to survive. Once you are survivng, your next evolutionary instinct will be to become Alpha. Without the desire to be BETTER than the next guy(or gal), have nicer stuff, etc etc etc.... we would NEVER have gotten where we, as the human race is today.
Sorry for being all over the place...... trying to focus, and keep the kids amused...
Chase
EDIT, and for the record, my truck, is 3/4 Ram Cummins. It doenst get used often, especially for play. It usually sees its duty hauling drywall, lumber, wood, trailers full logs, which, honestly, there is NO WAY I would tow that much with some of those little trucks I have seen overseas.... not enough braking area, friction surface, OR WEIGHT.
RMP&O
Expedition Leader
agree 100%
Hilldweller
SE Expedition Society
Well, here in Georgia, we chug the water and pray for rain.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21680340/ns/weather/t/governor-parched-georgia-pray-rain/
Ok listen yall I wish I had time to post a real statement right now. I hate our reliance on fossil fuel but acknowledge it is unavoidable. Everything is made of oil. My girlfriend drives her hybrid, and I think it's pretty much a joke. It's still a huge chuck of metal that costs tons of oil to manufacture but gets slightly better mpg than a regular car. My opinion on it is use the smallest mode of transportation possible that uses the least fuel. That is why I dd my 50cc. You can pry my jeep from my cold dead hands, but I will do my best to be a steward to the environment.
Hilldweller
SE Expedition Society
As in Iron Butt 50CC?
Junior's 12 Valve
Observer
I thought this thread would have died off about 15 pages ago ...