Is the Ranger the Hilux we've been wanting?

[shade]

I am in Tahiti right now and spotted a Ranger Raptor...looks pretty awesome. I'll try to get an actual picture if I see one again.

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I hope that truck finally kicks Toyota into gear.

Be careful. Things didn't end well for another Christian that was in Tahiti awhile ago.

 

[Hilldweller]

Here is how I measured cab height

Travelin' man, are ya?

 

[Dalko43]

I have never heard one way or the other. You can use it with any t-case setting though (2wd, 4HI and 4LO). I think the Taco is only in 4LO and is limited to a slower speed. Ranger also has more gears to play with so it might be harder to find "the" gear manually before it would be ideal to shift to another one too.

What is the big perk? Having not used either system I would think letting the computer do its thing would be better than interjecting with whatever gear I think I want.

The big perk? The big perk is that you can manually select your gears for situations like towing and offroading as opposed to letting the computer do that for you...for as good as the computers are, they don't fully replicate a human being's decision making for certain types of driving scenarios.

Toyota understands that owners want manual gear selection, either with the manual or with the auto. Some of the other OEM's seem hell-bent on taking that discretion away from owners by dumbing down the whole driving experience.

In a comparison video FLT did they said that Toyota's stance on the more flexible c channel frame was to help with articulation... which seems like kind of a hokey excuse.

I don't mean to knock c channel frames too hard, everything I have has one.

That was TFL's opinion. The Tacoma's C-channel frame may very well have more flex than the Ranger's. However the added articulation could also be due to the fact that the Tacoma's suspension and chassis was engineered to be more capable offroad. Either way, the Tacoma had noticeably better articulation compared to the Ranger during that TFL offroad test. That shows you how the design priorities are different between Ford and Toyota.

Everything else about the Tacoma is more inherently geared towards offroading, perhaps at the cost of ride comfort and onroad handling. Unlike Ford and GM, Toyota doesn't have to do a substantial rework of the base design in order to produce a more capable offroader.

Such as?

I already stated those areas, but to reiterate: better approach/departure angles, better ground clearance, shock mounts are tucked away to the sides of the axle, manual gear shifting, 16" wheels for better sidewall clearance.

 

[Dalko43]

Does the North American Ranger have all the same components as the overseas one?

I know the frame is of a different construction, though likely built to very similar specifications. I believe the rear axle used for the NA version is different. What about the rest of the chassis components? Transmission?

 

[shade]

The big perk? The big perk is that you can manually select your gears for situations like towing and offroading as opposed to letting the computer do that for you...for as good as the computers are, they don't fully replicate a human being's decision making for certain types of driving scenarios.

I wouldn't want an AT that didn't allow manual gear selection, but I've only seen that on some cars.

I've seen some confusion about manual control of ATs, usually from MT proponents trying to prop up their preference. The AT in my Tacoma definitely allows manual selection for towing and the like.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Does the North American Ranger have all the same components as the overseas one?

I know the frame is of a different construction, though likely built to very similar specifications. I believe the rear axle used for the NA version is different. What about the rest of the chassis components? Transmission?

Everyone is using models indiscriminately here. The overseas Hilux has a fully boxed frame like the Ranger does globally and here now (is that better or not, that's the question). The Hilux does not equal Tacoma. That's the point of this thread. The Ranger that Ford brought here does maybe share more in common with its supposedly pretty good global version than the Taco does of the Hilux, so the point is that it probably IS more the Hilux we (in North America) wanted. Our regulations and market are different enough than the rest of the world that Ford and Toyota can't just sell the same truck here anymore, so tailoring it using domestic axles and EPA-approved engine on the Ranger makes logistical sense. Toyota for NA uses an engine from the Camry and minivan, like Ford with their Mustang. They are also set up to make axles the same way globally but Dana has the capability they do in Canada, USA and Mexico and so that's what Ford uses. I'm a Toyota fan and will always be but I see they are vulnerable if Ford wants to peel off loyal fans. I know Toyota has come down in quality and their trucks simply don't appeal strongly to me anymore, so if the Ranger is decent I don't see why I won't consider one when my Tacoma wears out, which is quite a bit faster than my 1991 did.

 

[Dalko43]

I wouldn't want an AT that didn't allow manual gear selection, but I've only seen that on some cars.

I've seen some confusion about manual control of ATs, usually from MT proponents trying to prop up their preference. The AT in my Tacoma definitely allows manual selection for towing and the like.

That's my point...manual gear selection, whether it be with an actual manual transmission or auto is definitely advantageous for certain situations. Toyota recognizes that...some of the other OEM's don't.

Everyone is using models indiscriminately here. The overseas Hilux has a fully boxed frame like the Ranger does globally and here now. The Hilux does not equal Tacoma. That's the point of this thread. The Ranger that Ford brought here does share more in common with its global version than the Taco does of the Hilux, so the point is that it probably IS more the Hilux we (in North America) wanted. Our regulations and market are different enough than the rest of the world that Ford and Toyota can't just sell the same truck here anymore, so tailoring it using domestic axles on the Ranger makes logistical sense. Toyota is set up to make axles the same way globally but Dana has the capability they do in Canada, USA and Mexico and so that's what Ford uses.

Other than frame and engine, I think the Tacoma shares quite a bit of its underpinnings with the Hilux. They're definitely not the same truck, but then again neither is the NA Ranger and the global one. In both cases, there is some shared DNA between what we get in NA and what the rest of the world gets.

The Tacoma actually uses the same rear axle as the Hilux (8.8"). I have no idea where that axle is actually manufactured, but the dimensions and specifications are damn near identical, if not exactly identical, to what the Hilux uses. Other than rear axle and different frame and engine/transmission, I don't know how NA Ranger differs from the global one. I do know that for as much as the global Ranger is praised for its offroad prowess, the NA version seems quite tame and underwhelming by comparison. If people rant and rave about the global Ranger, that's the type of truck Ford should've built for us.

BTW, the main reason Toyota and Ford can't/won't import its global truck offerings is because of the Chicken Tax that affects imported trucks. It's leftover regulation from a bygone era, and the US consumer would be much better off if it were repealed.

 

[plainjaneFJC]

That's my point...manual gear selection, whether it be with an actual manual transmission or auto is definitely advantageous for certain situations. Toyota recognizes that...some of the other OEM's don't.




Other than frame and engine, I think the Tacoma shares quite a bit of its underpinnings with the Hilux. They're definitely not the same truck, but then again neither is the NA Ranger and the global one. In both cases, there is some shared DNA between what we get in NA and what the rest of the world gets.

The Tacoma actually uses the same rear axle as the Hilux (8.8"). I have no idea where that axle is actually manufactured, but the dimensions and specifications are damn near identical, if not exactly identical, to what the Hilux uses. Other than rear axle and different frame and engine/transmission, I don't know how NA Ranger differs from the global one. I do know that for as much as the global Ranger is praised for its offroad prowess, the NA version seems quite tame and underwhelming by comparison. If people rant and rave about the global Ranger, that's the type of truck Ford should've built for us.

BTW, the main reason Toyota and Ford can't/won't import its global truck offerings is because of the Chicken Tax that affects imported trucks. It's leftover regulation from a bygone era, and the US consumer would be much better off if it were repealed.

They don't need to import something consumers don't want. The hilux would not sell as well as the Tacoma and Toyota knows that or they would build the Hilux here. People in the states that want real trucks buy fullsize trucks which are too expensive or not available overseas.

 

[billiebob]

A 500lb difference in payload capacity is substantial

Massively HUUGE !
500# is likely what the passengers weigh.
Meaning the Taco can only load 675# vs the Ranger loading 1175# of stuff.
Throw a 200# RTT on both and the Ranger can carry double the stuff the Taco can.

 

[Dalko43]

They don't need to import something consumers don't want. The hilux would not sell as well as the Tacoma and Toyota knows that or they would build the Hilux here. People in the states that want real trucks buy fullsize trucks which are too expensive or not available overseas.

You say that, but the whole reason this thread started was because someone thinks the Ranger is more akin to the longtime global benchmark (Hilux) than is the Tacoma.

People do want Hilux-like trucks. Overlanding and offroading has taken off in NA in a massive way. People living in suburban and city areas want smaller, but still capable, trucks. Sportscar interest is dying off but truck/offroading interest is picking up with the car-buying population.

The Tacoma is the #1 selling midsized truck in North America, and one the major criticisms against it is that it is too spartan and basic in its design...arguably those attributes are what make it appealing to so many customers. The midsized truck owners would likely jump at the opportunity to buy a Hilux. Any rough-riding attributes could easily be fine-tuned with suspension adjustments.

The main reason the Hilux isn't imported is because of import taxes on light trucks...and I'm sure that the domestic OEM's have no interest in seeing that tax repealed.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Other than frame and engine, I think the Tacoma shares quite a bit of its underpinnings with the Hilux. They're definitely not the same truck, but then again neither is the NA Ranger and the global one. In both cases, there is some shared DNA between what we get in NA and what the rest of the world gets.

The Tacoma actually uses the same rear axle as the Hilux (8.8"). I have no idea where that axle is actually manufactured, but the dimensions and specifications are damn near identical, if not exactly identical, to what the Hilux uses. Other than rear axle and different frame and engine/transmission, I don't know how NA Ranger differs from the global one. I do know that for as much as the global Ranger is praised for its offroad prowess, the NA version seems quite tame and underwhelming by comparison. If people rant and rave about the global Ranger, that's the type of truck Ford should've built for us.

Not necessarily. The track width of the Tacoma is wider than the Hilux, so the axles are similar in the same way as they were in the T100 and now Tundras. The Hilux is 1,535/1,550mm FR/RR (60.4"/61") and the Tacoma 63.0"/63.2". All of Toyota's axles are similar in construction but there's nothing I can find that suggests the Tacoma axle is identical to the Hilux (which I would dearly like to be). So you nor I can say the axle tube walls are the same thickness, for example, to suppose without a doubt the payload capacity of the Hilux can be carried over to the Tacoma based on axle strength.

Also the parts are similar in other places. Like the control arms, spindles and ball joints are the same geometry but ball joints have different tapers. So I can't just put in 4Runner/FJC/Hilux ball joints (or actually control arms since Toyota no longer sells ball joints as replacement parts). The Tacoma upper and lower arms have a different part number globally than the other 150-derived trucks. The transmissions in the V6 haven't been the same for a long time. Similar Aisin family but different models and gearing. The 4 cylinder trucks have always been more closely related to the global trucks, though.

Another difference is the Hilux still uses traditional tension shackles to hold the flexing end of the leaf springs while the Tacoma in 2005 changed to compression shackles like the Big 3 had been using for decades. The Hilux still puts the shocks inboard of the frame like they used to while the Tacoma has them mounted on the outside. The differences in trucks is not superficial, there are substantial design differences.

BTW, the main reason Toyota and Ford can't/won't import its global truck offerings is because of the Chicken Tax that affects imported trucks. It's leftover regulation from a bygone era, and the US consumer would be much better off if it were repealed.

The chicken tax impacts import of the truck. It wouldn't stop them from building the Hilux within NAFTA. They actually did that from 1992 to 1995, building the same truck in NUMMI in Fremont, CA, as they were building in Japan. The Tacoma was designed for the NA market intentionally and now sources parts from Dana and Delphi as often as Aisin and Denso. But OTOH Denso and Aisin supply plenty of parts to domestic companies, so the differences are shrinking in the whole industry.

 

[85_Ranger4x4]

The big perk? The big perk is that you can manually select your gears for situations like towing and offroading as opposed to letting the computer do that for you...for as good as the computers are, they don't fully replicate a human being's decision making for certain types of driving scenarios.

Toyota understands that owners want manual gear selection, either with the manual or with the auto. Some of the other OEM's seem hell-bent on taking that discretion away from owners by dumbing down the whole driving experience.




That was TFL's opinion. The Tacoma's C-channel frame may very well have more flex than the Ranger's. However the added articulation could also be due to the fact that the Tacoma's suspension and chassis was engineered to be more capable offroad. Either way, the Tacoma had noticeably better articulation compared to the Ranger during that TFL offroad test. That shows you how the design priorities are different between Ford and Toyota.




I already stated those areas, but to reiterate: better approach/departure angles, better ground clearance, shock mounts are tucked away to the sides of the axle, manual gear shifting, 16" wheels for better sidewall clearance.

While using crawl control when the computer is running everything else I do not see the point of throwing my shifts at it. If I need to control the gearing I probably need to control the throttle too.

Actually the frame flex thing is Toyota's stance on the subject. If the Taco had a comparable frame in the TFL the "articulation" would have been pretty close... dismal which is par for the course on a modern IFS pickup.

http://www.exploringoverland.com/overland-tech-travel/2015/8/26/thinking-outside-the-box

I am all for small rims, 17's are decent in todays world. I would prefer 16's but they are starting to interfere with modern brakes.

Does the North American Ranger have all the same components as the overseas one?

I know the frame is of a different construction, though likely built to very similar specifications. I believe the rear axle used for the NA version is different. What about the rest of the chassis components? Transmission?

No

Front axle is supposed to be different, Dana based. Engine is obviously different. 10 speed is the same as F-150 with a more compact case. Not sure what t-case it has. Rear axle is a Dana Advantec 220.

I wouldn't want an AT that didn't allow manual gear selection, but I've only seen that on some cars.

I've seen some confusion about manual control of ATs, usually from MT proponents trying to prop up their preference. The AT in my Tacoma definitely allows manual selection for towing and the like.

I think the debate is whether or not you can manual shift while using trail control which I haven't heard one way or the other if you can.

Ranger shifter:

The Tacoma is the #1 selling midsized truck in North America, and one the major criticisms against it is that it is too spartan and basic in its design...arguably those attributes are what make it appealing to so many customers. The midsized truck owners would likely jump at the opportunity to buy a Hilux. Any rough-riding attributes could easily be fine-tuned with suspension adjustments.

We are talking about the Tacoma not the 70 series. You know the one with the fancy body work, neat interior and awesome color palate that everybody loves. One of the first trucks with a wireless cell phone charger built into it.

Toyota has been able to rest on its laurels with the meat and taters stuff being the only game in town IMO. Competition makes everything better, the Ranger already got Toyota to add power seats (welcome to the 90's?) and LED headlights to the Tacoma. Better times are coming for all brands IMO. The NA midsize truck market is going to be very interesting as they start playing off each other.

 

[Dalko43]

Not necessarily. The track width of the Tacoma is wider than the Hilux, so the axles are similar in the same way as they were in the T100 and now Tundras. The Hilux is 1,535/1,550mm FR/RR (60.4"/61") and the Tacoma 63.0"/63.2". All of Toyota's axles are similar in construction but there's nothing I can find that suggests the Tacoma axle is identical to the Hilux (which I would dearly like to be). So you nor I can say the axle tube walls are the same thickness, for example, to suppose without a doubt the payload capacity of the Hilux can be carried over to the Tacoma based on axle strength.

Also the parts are similar in other places. Like the control arms, spindles and ball joints are the same geometry but ball joints have different tapers. So I can't just put in 4Runner/FJC/Hilux ball joints (or actually control arms since Toyota no longer sells ball joints as replacement parts). The Tacoma upper and lower arms have a different part number globally than the other 150-derived trucks. The transmissions in the V6 haven't been the same for a long time. Similar Aisin family but different models and gearing. The 4 cylinder trucks have always been more closely related to the global trucks, though.

Track width is different...Does that mean the axles themselves are different or are different offset wheels axle hubs are being used? As far as I know, the Tacoma's 8.8" axle is pretty much the same as what the Hilux (and 4runner/LC Prado) use. If you have sources which suggest otherwise, please show them.

Some of the other chassis components (control arms) might have different numbers, but that could very well be due to internal/administrative purposes. Looking at the 4runner and Tacoma, a lot of the core chassis components seem very similar...perhaps not interchangeable but nonetheless similar. My point is, I don't think the Tacoma is lacking any of the special engineering and QDR-testing that goes into Toyota's global platforms. Even if the Tacoma's upper control arm is somewhat different from the Hilux's (which I'm not sure that it is), I have no doubt that Toyota incorporated its engineering and lessons-learned from the Hilux into the Tacoma's design.

And with Toyota's future plans to standardize some of its truck construction with global platforms, I think parts interchangeability and commonality will only increase going forward.

But to your point, the Tacoma surely is different, in some form or fashion, from the Hilux....so is the NA Ranger. Have you taken the time to do a detailed analysis of that truck as well? Because based on media reports, there are some obvious differences between the NA and global version (frame, rear axle, transmission). Is Ford incorporating all of the same chassis components from the global version?

The chicken tax impacts import of the truck. It wouldn't stop them from building the Hilux within NAFTA. They actually did that from 1992 to 1995, building the same truck in NUMMI in Fremont, CA, as they were building in Japan. The Tacoma was designed for the NA market intentionally and now sources parts from Dana and Delphi as often as Aisin and Denso. But OTOH Denso and Aisin supply plenty of parts to domestic companies, so the differences are shrinking in the whole industry.

I guess from Toytoa's perspecitve, it didn't make sense to try and build the exact same truck in North America and overseas. I agree the early Tacoma was very much "designed" for the North American market. Nowadays, the North American market demands more robust and more capable midsized trucks. I would not be surprised if the Tacoma and Tundra production becomes more standardized and aligned with Toyota's global offerings as time progresses...cuts costs and people want increasingly want trucks that are similarly designed compared to the global offerings.

 

[roving1]

The big perk? The big perk is that you can manually select your gears for situations like towing and offroading as opposed to letting the computer do that for you...for as good as the computers are, they don't fully replicate a human being's decision making for certain types of driving scenarios.

Toyota understands that owners want manual gear selection, either with the manual or with the auto. Some of the other OEM's seem hell-bent on taking that discretion away from owners by dumbing down the whole driving experience.

Nothing infuriates me more than selecting manual mode and then the system not letting me do what I want. I don't mean for safety parameters either, just because it doesn't want to let me. Same for holding a gear. If I pick the gear leave it. Don't shift because you think that's what I really wanted when I'm in manual mode. GM is the worst for this, but they are far from alone. If it isn't going to throw a rod out of the engine or nuke the torque converter leave my gear selection the hell alone!

 

[shade]

Toyota has been able to rest on its laurels with the meat and taters stuff being the only game in town IMO. Competition makes everything better, the Ranger already got Toyota to add power seats (welcome to the 90's?) and LED headlights to the Tacoma. Better times are coming for all brands IMO. The NA midsize truck market is going to be very interesting as they start playing off each other.

Agreed.