Ultimate Expedition Vehicle

[rbraddock]

I was browsing the web the other day and came across www.local-motors.com. I am not promoting their product, but I am promoting their idea of community developed, open-source vehicle design. I would like to get opinions on what criteria would be necessary to create the ultimate expedition vehicle, independent of any particular manufacturer. This is a creative assignment to spec out a vehicle capable of exploring anywhere. Think outside the box.

Some of my initial questions for the forum users:

Gas or diesel?
IFS or Solid Axle?
short or long wheelbase or somewhere in between?
tire size?
2 or 4 explorer capable?
camper or rooftop tent?

Ultimately, I will take the input I receive via this forum to develop a design which I will ask the forum here and at locals motors to critique. If the final design is feasible, I may even build it in my shop and license it as a specially constructed vehicle, offering my experience and plans back to this community.

 

[AmericaOverland]

Excellent concept! The question I have is, how do these cars get built without the Feds stepping in and saying you need to have this and that, because the only way to stop them is a revolution? You know that's not going to happen.

I think the important things are whether to go gasoline or diesel, leaving the option open for automatic or manual transmissions, depending on whether you are rock crawling or just four-wheeling, and certainly having a few functional camper designs that can be added on simply by trading in a hard top for a camper version of the hard top. I'd say stick with solid axles - it's less parts and way better protection than CV joint boots can ever provide for the axle parts inside. AND design a body that can be fixed very easily by the average person with a decent garage of tools like sheet metal brake, welder, riveting equipment, whatever it takes to make a body.

The question remains, how do you get around having the regulations that have been forced upon the big three and anyone who makes cars to be sold in the market?

Stephanie

 

[milo12]

One thing I would like to see is it fit easily in a 20 foot container. That is much more secure than a roll on roll off for shipping.

 

[lostworldexpedition]

One thing I would like to see is it fit easily in a 20 foot container. That is much more secure than a roll on roll off for shipping.

100% Agreed, but only if you assume the expedition will require vehicle shipping

The problem with the OP's often asked question is that there truly is no ONE answer. Each person or group will have their specific needs and desires for the overland trip they will embark on. IMHO there is no universally perfect "expedition" rig.

I know that is sort of a cop-out answer, but the question needs to be individual specific.

I will answer what the ideal rig for a worldwide drive would be for me:

• Container size
• 4WD with good clearance and capability
• Turbo-diesel engine (pre electronics if possible)
• Insulated camper not RTT (for a worldwide trip)
• Pass through from the cab of the vehicle to the camper/house area, so there is no need to walk outside to enter the "house"
• Secure camper, with Euro style windows
• good ventilation system
• toilet and shower (inside camper)
• fridge
• diesel stovetop or propane
• Permanent comfort for 2, but space for 4 (not to comfy for the guests)
• well designed electrical system to include photovoltaics(I know... vague)
• Minimum 17 gallon water storage
• Good water filtration (read Katadyn Expedition)
• minimum 800 mile autonomy from fuel on board
• A great air compressor (read ExtremeAire or belt driven)

There is plenty more I have thought of, but I will remember as soon as I post. The Australians have a couple of SWB models that I consider to be pretty close to perfect (e.g. Earthcruiser and All Terrain Warrior).

My 2 cents :victory:

 

[Overland Hadley]

The Australians have a couple of SWB models that I consider to be pretty close to perfect (e.g. Earthcruiser and All Terrain Warrior).

I have to agree. The Earth Cruiser was designed and originally built by All Terrain Warriors. A very close to perfect overland vehicle in my mind.

 

[The Adam Blaster]

The problem with the OP's often asked question is that there truly is no ONE answer. Each person or group will have their specific needs and desires for the overland trip they will embark on. IMHO there is no universally perfect "expedition" rig.

I agree with this statement.
The "perfect vehicle" is going to be different for one person, two, or a family with 2-3 small children.
Look at the Ecoroamer and how much criticism it has seen by people that would never need that size of vehicle. For a family of 4 that is planning on traveling the world for 2 years or more, it's phenomenal.
My wife and I are "building" our family, so we'll need something larger than a regular cab p/u with a cap covering the bed.
For my future needs, I'd think something like the Earthroamer, or the new Global Expedition Vehicles' F-550 based camper.
Something that can comfortably travel with 4-5 people, and also comfortable sleeping quarters for all travelers. I would also agree on the point about having it fit in a standard shipping container, but for a family-sized rig, you'd probably need the 40-footer.
And for any travels outside of North America, it seems like a gasoline powered machine would be a poor choice.

EDIT: For a true world-vehicle a very cool (and useful) feature would be a steering with with instrument cluster that could slide from the left to right side of the driver's compartment. I believe some Unimogs may have been built with this capability.

 

[Ford Prefect]

In my opinion you are about two years too late on this idea.

Check out www.ontheroadlesstraveled.com, that is the site for the eco-roamer, a completely open source not for prophet expedition vehicle design. I have had the privilege of spending a few days with the owners, and in my opinion it is darn near perfect. The only concerns I had with it were to be taken care of by now, so...um....



If you are thinking of a smaller vehicle then there are other things that can be good, but personally for the ultimate exploration vehicle I think that Jay pretty much hit the nail on the head. Everything from water filtration, composting toilet, and 4x4, to washing machine and two fold out guest bedrooms, one of which makes a wonderful deck for light evening conversation with a view. Heck the thing even sleeps 10+. I have two young kids and room for them to run and play is important for my sanity and theirs.

I would say that you should seriously take a look at it, and consider building one of those for yourself. It is the largest most cost effective vehicle I have seen. Comfortable in size, yet still able to go where I would want to go. For the critics, well, people who are only fault finders will find fault in everything they look at, so their opinions are not worth my time anymore.

Edit: The Unimog "Vario Cab" was, and I believe still is, a standard option which can be put on the U500. I believe they also made it on a few other models, but could not quote you which ones. Never the less I personally agree that would be nice.

 

[lostworldexpedition]

I did not know the Eco Roamer had a composting toilet, that is awesome.

 

[rbraddock]

Stephanie, to answer your question, "how do you get around having the regulations that have been forced upon the big three and anyone who makes cars to be sold in the market?" The vehicle will be titled and licensed as a "special constructed vehicle" or "component vehicle" through individual state DMVs. Basically, this means that the owner must be the "builder" and the vehicle is licensed similar to a "kit car." The concept used by Local Motors is they build the chassis, source the parts, and assist the ultimate owner in building their vehicle (currently the Rally Fighter) over six days. This is the loop hole in the FMVSS and some states DMVs, as long as the owner builds the majority of the vehicle it is exempt from some of the laws that the Big Three are subject to: air bags, crash testing, fuel standards etc. This does not mean that you are building a jalopy that is unsafe, it still has to meet certain FMVSS rules, must use DOT components, etc.

The current production vehicles are designed for the masses and then modified by those who have a desire, often with severe compromises. What I am proposing is designing a vehicle from the ground up to meet the needs of Overlanders, not modifying a production chassis. However, the components utilized would be sourced from the existing infrastructure, all the better if they were worldwide available i.e. engine, transmission, and transfer case from Toyota; Dana axles; and Chevrolet suspension. Who knows what the best individual components may be? I believe those that Overland. I mean I absolutely love my Cherokee, but can't imagine overlanding it for more than a weekend trip. I like the size of my Expedition, but Ford made it a grocery getter with IFS and air bags on all four corners.

I wasn't aware of the Eco-Roamer. That thing is a beast; I like it! But, can you imagine trying to get it down the narrow streets of some towns, especially in Europe?

Keep the ideas coming please; I appreciate the input and criticism.

 

[FreeManDan]

Duel fuel, propane and gasoline, or 4 cylinder diesel, 35" to 37", maybe even 40s, 4 seats, cargo, options....

 

[haven]

I think the length of the journey is a key factor in choosing an overland vehicle. If you're traveling for up to a couple of weeks, you can put up with a camper that provides basic shelter, such as provided by a rooftop tent. There's just enough room inside the vehicle to carry passengers and your gear when it's packed up.

If the journey is measured in months, then a camper that provides more comfort and convenience is necessary for most of us. That translates into a larger and heavier vehicle with a camper that allows you to live inside, or a vehicle and trailer combination.

Here's one example of a vehicle that strikes a good compromise between basic shelter and comfort, while retaining reasonable size, light weight, and off-road capability:

This vehicle is almost completely custom, blending a 1979 Toyota HJ47 pickup cab and front clip to the chassis from a 1993 HDJ 80 diesel. It was constructed by Marcus Haase of the Offroad-Schmiede workshop in Germany for forum member Sönke.

Read about the project here
http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20822

See more examples from the Offroad-Schmeide workshop here
http://www.offroad-schmiede.com/

 

[Viggen]

For me:
- Solid axles front and rear (for durability, although Pinzgauers are IFS/IRS and hardly unreliable)
- Diesel would be nice, although gas is available everywhere and you can knock compression in motors down enough to where low octane is not a big deal
- 34" or 35" tires would be perfect
- Cab over/ forward sort of design for ease of packaging
- Spec'd to fit within a cargo container would be nice
- Short front and low overhangs for clearance
- I would normally only be going with two but 4 people capable would be nice
- Rear box with a pop up roof with a bed would be my choice
- Wheelbase, kind of short. 100 to 120 or so would be my ideal. Width, no wider than a full size pick up but closer to a midsize would suit me. I wouldnt want length and width limiting my routes

I personally, think the Eco Roamer is dumb. Its HUGE and something that big, I find hard to label as "eco." You can buy carbon offsets and plant trees for any vehicle but that hardly makes it eco. Another issue I have is its gigantic size, and with it, its weight. I cannot imagine that on soft ground, whether it be mud, snow, or uneven ground, it is very fun to pilot. The front and rear overhangs are immense too making your options limited. I would want to be able to go where I could and not be limited by the shear size of the vehicle. I also think that its a bit of a land yacht and overkill. For me, an overlanding/ expedition experience would be more than driving in an RV with 4wd but being able to pilot that vehicle anywhere. If an H2 is having trouble in narrow European roads, what is something of that size going to be like? No thanks.

Ive always had a soft spot for the Land Rover Forward Control ambulance or radio body. Put a Dana 60 in front, the Salisbury (Dana 60) rear, a stronger diesel (something from a 1 ton would be a nice, US EPA legal swap) instead of the Rover V8 and mate it to an automatic, create a coil suspension set up and then gut the box in the back and design the interior as you want it to be and graft a Westfalia rising or Flip Pac style opening roof area and be done with it. Completely capable, not too heavy on the scales, great stock clearance for larger tires, solid axles, parts availability, short front and rear overhangs (no one likes to drag ***), and you can move from drivers area to box inside if you wanted to. Oh, and theyre ugly enough that theyre cool.

Something like this:

with a roof like this:

would be ideal for me. Why reinvent the wheel and design from scratch? There are plenty of options/ base models out there for you to build off of easily.

 

[haven]

If you're interested in larger campers, see this thread
http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9299

 

[RMP&O]

Me....I wouldn't go to large. Just not enough room in a lot of countries on the roads for a large vehicle. Can you do it in a large vehcile? Of course. it is going to be a pita though to get through many towns with very small streets. Plus much much harder to find a place to camp with a large vehicle. Even hard to find a place to park it in say Granada, Nicaragua if you want to stay in a hostel/hotel. Out on the CA1 and most hwys plenty of room for a big rig but everywhere else difficult. In much of Mexico snowbirds fill up the RV parks and stay there all winter. Meaning finding a place to park that large truck is going to be difficult. In a smaller vehicle you have many more options. I can't imagine how lame it would be to get lost in all the small towns along the way and try to get a big rig turned around. Not to mention all the low hanging power lines.

In my mind a small to full sized truck with a FWC is about perfect. If you are solo or with one other person then say a Toyota or Nissan as the base vehicle. If you have a kid or two along then say a full sized Chevy but even that is getting a bit large imho.

Lost World pretty much sums up the rest of what I would add. The vehicle Haven links is about perfect size, at least for Latin America.

Oh and I hate to say it because I am not a Ford fan but.....a SMB is about the perfect full sized vehicle for long range outside the USA travel.

 

[rbraddock]

20 foot shipping container dimensions

Size is definitely a consideration when looking at Latin and South American towns or even intercontinental shipping. For reference purposes a 20 foot shipping container has the following nominal internal dimensions:
Length: 19' 3"
Width: 7' 7"
Height: Standard 7' 9"
High Cube 8' 9"

End Door Opening:
Width: 7' 6"
Height: Standard 7' 5"
High Cube 8' 5"

Therefore, I think if a design consideration is the ability to ship in a standard shipping container, then the High Cube container is the logical choice. Up-sizing to a 40 footer only adds length, not something I feel is worthwhile.