Hey Bio!
...damn! this thing is going too fast for me!! I keep on reading posts/answers and re-answer by posting and editing as I catch up!
So - I am sorry for much of the parallel posting of stuff and sometimes triple-discussions!
I am better than "hawk circle dive and hit" typing, ......but not much!!
Sometimes I HAVE to get off my ******** and do other stuff in the middle of a post, so it gets posted later too.....
Oh well!! :sombrero:
WRONG! You will have to have all motors active at all times - if not for driving, then for re-gen braking! Remember, NO matter what your final layout will be - center of mass will be roughly somewhere around the middle of the truck. Braking will move a LOT of that to the front - so the FRONT wheels will be doing the majority of the braking (re-gen hopefully!) - you can load the rear-drive motor all the way to actually BLOCK the rear-axle, but it will not increase your braking capability beyond the tire-adhesion at this point - remember the rear wheels will get un-loaded, the front-wheels will get more loaded under braking!
Your front motors (hub or central) need to be able to convert as much as possible into re-gen energy if you want any efficiency from your ride!
You actually should try to design the rig so, that you need friction brakes just for the very last, very slow bit to stop and in very slow terrain - in these areas you do not need super-heavy brakes. In any case, they should be big enough to stop the truck at least ONCE from the worst possible situation: MVGW+a heavy trailer (IF you go for a trailer - design a new one with hub-motors! ...might as well use the trailer braking to charge batteries too!!)
If you want ONE MAIN MOTOR - it has to be able to maintain your "power requirement" sample: longest, heaviest climb at max speed....
IF you stick with your 3-motor layout, there is NO reason why NOT to drive all 3 all the time!
There is NO detriment to that at all - remember these are 3 completely independet drives - no connection what so ever, no twisting and torquing up any transfer box even on blacktop!
Bio - I was all in favor of this configuration and was "fighting" the hub-motors (go back and re-read if you care for!!). ...until I saw the Grimsel Racer and it's hub-motors!! These chage the game totally!
Just don't throw them out quite yet! Have your e-drive specialist engineering friends go through the numbers first!!
IF 3 central motor - ALL the same size
IF 1 MAIN central motor - senough size to maintain most or near max power driving and 4 hub-motor/generators (splitting the rest of the KW capacity) for re-gen braking and AWD-needs. This would give you the superior efficiency of ONE bigger motor (vs. many smaller ones), STILL give you the re-gen braking form the hub-motor/generators (which you will need under hard braking) and AWD when "having fun" (though with the lower efficiency of smaller e-motors, but when? 10% of the driving done!!)
WRONG again! ...see above!
GUESS what!!
SEE previous post!
What is good for Oskosh is not necessarily good for Terraliner!!
REMEMBER - Oshokosh is promoting to the Military - we don't even know WHAT the military wants or requires (in detail). We only see what Oshkosh thinks is the best solution for the specific Military requirements. Although at this point it seems that the Oskosh approach is a viable solution/option, but the Terraliner requirments afre DEFINITELY different from the military!!
Have your e-drive specialist engineering friends go through the numbers first!!
Again: Your Diesel-Generator Unit should provide enough power, so you can accelerate and maintain top speed on the longest, steepest, climb with a Max load on the rig, incl. a possible trailer - WITHOUT any battery assist! A rough calc would put the total weight around 35 tons between truck and heaviest trailer. About 400hp should do the trick (have some truck development engineer run the numbers) - I am taking the Austrian/Italian Brennerpaß as a reference. From my limited experience - that is about the steepest pass which you can do (mostly) at max speed if you have the power. Steeper passes hardly ever have straight enough runs to maintain max speed for more than minute, IF you get there in the first place. Driving slower, needs less power - spare power goes straight into the battery pack and helps you power out of the next switch-back.
Rough idea: 350-400hp (260-300kw) power-plant, 600hp (440kw) max TOTAL e-motor capability.
This way you have some serious power available for some time (depending how full/empty your batteries are)
Actually this is already a bit overboard, but you will need some serious re-gen capability if you want to be able to re-gen to the max!
So gen-mode should be able to push a LOT into the batteries (for serious braking work, like DOWN the steep pass we just climbed up - you will more likely need a serious SuperCondensator bank to catch the massive amount of braking engery coming in!)
You don't want to go over board with the e-power drive mode though, as things tend to break easier the harder you play!!
Look - to you it might seem extreme! BUT a 12m truck will fit 99% of the places a 10m truck goes!!
I know your base spec is a "couple"(elderly, enjoying their retirement, doing crazy stuff in the middle of nowhere... :wings::sombrero: ), but I bet there would be just as many families, bringing their 4 kids or mum and/or dad or grandpa/ma with the 4 kids or....you name it!
THAT's why I suggest the 8-12m approach. Structurally you designg for the "worst" case - 12m.
Then you build them all the same - just shortne the sections between structural columns....
If you are hot for the 10m - non problem! 8m enough - go for it! ALL out - 12m it is!!
5 different lenghts!! Pre-build/prepare different sections and finalise with the choosen length - I think with the price range of this thing you probably will built to order only anyway...
WHICH should be no problem if you have a modular approach to everything on the machine!
Bio! FORGET about the Earthroamer and/or idling!! You don't do either!!
First of all, Earthroamer is NOT a hybrid (parallel or serial) - if they have a problem with their alternators - too bad!
They should find a way to install a 5 kw or 10 kw generator!! (Most likely they try, but have a belt slipping problem! Generators of this size tend to need some serious grip!) A 10kw gen normally would go on a PTO or aux drive of the transfer-case or trans. Earthroamer's base-vehicles don't have any of that.
Then - IF they get a 5 or 10 KW gen on the rig - they will need a serious battery bank to be able to take on that kind of charge load!
The Earthroamer is genius development, but at their size storage and weight capacities are limited. For the present Earthroamer line I think a GOOD set of solar-panels, correctly installed and a 5 KW-Honda is all you would need!
As stated before - I believe the lower "efficiency limit" of Diesel-Generators is around 1/4 to 1/3 their rated power.
So - IF we take the 260kw unit from above - you want to run it at a minimum of 65KW output - your challenge is, to design the battery bank to be able to take that as a charge load!! I am sure - this will be a substantial bank, which in turn should enable you to run your household for 24-48 hrs!!
Charging at 65 KW - you are NOT idling you are CHARGING your POWERHOUSE!!!!
Anyway - most of the places where idling would be prohibited would have shore-power. Most places where I would go with Terraliner would not have shorepower within a 1000km radius! Most places I would go - NO one would care if I idle, 1/4 run or let the Diesel sing!!
Once Terraliners (or similar) become reality, all these regulations will change anyway. Can't imagine that people would be stupid enough to prohibit a big/efficient/clean/fast (short run time to full charge) Generator in favor of a smaller nad therfor less efficient gen-set that needs a lot longer ot charge your banks....
Then, .....you never know!
Depending on the brand and systems (pre-heat, pre-oil, computerized run control) - your IC-engine will probably be just as sturdy and long living as your generator!!
Most likely out living the rest of the rig. I'd say IS would be the most maintenance intensive part of the drive-chassis.
Of course a lot depends on your diligence with fuel/oil quality and changes.
WHICH reminds me: YOU NEED to provide a "fuel-quality assurance system"!!! You won't believe how Diesel quality changes all over the globe - ....and what crap people sell for Diesel in places!!
NOTHING faster to stop your trip than contaminated fuel in the system!!
Look, if YOU don't skimp on quality motor/gen, axles - most Terraliner owners will NEVER outlive these parts!! A good set should go 750-1000k km without a sweat!
E.g. Caterpillar!! Their big D11 goes through an engine rebuild every couple thousand hours - for the abuse it suffers from the hydraulic pumps it drives.
On the new D7E-drive - the Diesel hardly wears!! It is computer controlled according to the e-motor power requirements and totally de-coupled from everything but the generator. The computer decides when it is at max power, no chance to overload and abuse!! (Essentially the same as on the new Pistenbullys you mentioned)
I'd rather say "alleviated!"
WHAT?? You STILL din't check out the new Japanese Carbon-Carbon batteries?? 3x as many charges before they are dead, 20x faster charge rate, no minimum voltage to maintain at discharge, not heat-issues and proposed for vehicles!! Check it out:
http://www.gizmag.com/dual-carbon-fast-charging-battery/32121/
I may be wrong - but I believe that Ceramic brakes (disks) are mostly Racing-equipment exclusively - they need to get to a serious high temperature before they work!!
As mentioned before - with a excellent re-gen configuration, you friction-brake needs should be dramatically reduced compared to a conventional drive truck....
Brembo's are good, but about 70% of the price you pay for the brand-name!!
I never saw one, but I am sure if you insisted one could be built - imagine the hub of a Solid Portal-axle and the (usually) wishbones of a IS mounted on top and middle of the hub, instead on top and bottom. You get some serious ground clearance increase, STILL have the "problem" that the IS only raises the wheel and not the whole center of the axle/truck, and I would suggest it will need VERY MASSIVE wishbones ot deal with the added bending forces from the offset mounting relative to the wheel.
Whatever weight -advantage you got from the regular IS over the SA will certainly be gone.....
I'd say if this had some serious merit, we would have seen it somewhere - ...anyone..??
The Kudos need to go to CAMPO - he brought it back from the last Truck Expo!! (I think it was Campo!! ...?)
You have NO idea!! IF you ever ACTUALLY get Terraliner built - this will be one of the VERY big challenges!! You have MASSIVE amounts of electric energy going back and forth through the drive system and constantly changing!! To make this work you will need to engange some top engineers in the field!!
If you don't intend to ever build one - at least talk to some specialist engineer - so you cna make at least some smart comments to the control system!:sombrero:
If someone is interested in the technical aspect of Terraliner - THIS will be centeral conversation piece!!!
Damn if I remember!! I was looking for "MAN/KAT 6 wheeler" on google images or "MAN/KAT 6 wheeler Explorer" or either without the MAN/KAT...
[I like the draw-bar across th efront of the cage doing double-duty as a bumper!!]
Of course TAK-4 will show you the advantages of their turning radius!! They want to sell the equipment!!
They don't have to tell you, that a SA can turn just as tight as a IS!!
Look, the wheel is attached to the whole system at the hub. Wether that hub is connected to a IS (via wishbone or a trailing arm or ...?) or a SA doesn't matter!
The possible steering lock is determined by the way the drive-power is past through to the wheel - normally this is a CV-joint or a U-joint (cardan joint). At this size vehicle most likely a U-joint. Now naturally there are limits on how much you can "tilt" that joint before it starts to bind up. The longer and thinner the U-joint forks or the deeper relieved the ball pockets on a CV-joint, the greater the angle, the better the steering lock! .....and the more prone to snap!!
The question is just about the Joint, how much power, how much risk.
NOT if IS or AS!!
Bio, watch out!! Company brochures are fantastic (sometimes REALLY FANTASYtastic!) and sometimes they are so convincing that you become literally a believer!!
I went through that with the (in)famous K&N air-filters. Absolutely fantasytastic - and it made all perfect sense!!
Until someone finally put some realworld tests and analysis on paper!!
[I don't think K&N makes replacement filters for Diesel-Generators, so this is irrelevant for Terraliner - if you want the story in detail, let me know and I sned you the links!]
[Just as a starter - K&N tells you that thir filters flow 30% better than the stock paper/tissue filters. They also tell you, that their filters start to filter really well once soem serious dirt is on them!! oiled cotton filters.... - Tests show that when fresh their filtering is quite miserable until they get plugged up with some dirt - by then the 30% (...that are less in the test) are mostly gone! Now 30% more than a stock filter sounds like a lot of added power! ...until you realise (another serious of tests...) that in about 99% of all cases the airfilter accounts only for 2-5% of ALL of the intake restrictions!! So - how much overall increase in airflow do you get from those 30% of the 2-5%?? Do the math and you get a 0.7-2% increase of flow for the price of loads of dirt in the engine!!
You want more flow - start to clean up the intake path!! .....loads of samples available on: http://origin.autospeed.com/ ]
BTW - as mentioned somewhere above or before: I have nothing against IS, contrary, it is ecellent, just not the BEST system for Terraliner (in my book).
There are properties of a IS that a perfect and intentional for other applications, but detrimental for what I think Terraliner needs/wants.
'nough for tonight!!
thjakits
...damn! this thing is going too fast for me!! I keep on reading posts/answers and re-answer by posting and editing as I catch up!
So - I am sorry for much of the parallel posting of stuff and sometimes triple-discussions!
I am better than "hawk circle dive and hit" typing, ......but not much!!
Sometimes I HAVE to get off my ******** and do other stuff in the middle of a post, so it gets posted later too.....
Oh well!! :sombrero:
WRONG! You will have to have all motors active at all times - if not for driving, then for re-gen braking! Remember, NO matter what your final layout will be - center of mass will be roughly somewhere around the middle of the truck. Braking will move a LOT of that to the front - so the FRONT wheels will be doing the majority of the braking (re-gen hopefully!) - you can load the rear-drive motor all the way to actually BLOCK the rear-axle, but it will not increase your braking capability beyond the tire-adhesion at this point - remember the rear wheels will get un-loaded, the front-wheels will get more loaded under braking!
Your front motors (hub or central) need to be able to convert as much as possible into re-gen energy if you want any efficiency from your ride!
You actually should try to design the rig so, that you need friction brakes just for the very last, very slow bit to stop and in very slow terrain - in these areas you do not need super-heavy brakes. In any case, they should be big enough to stop the truck at least ONCE from the worst possible situation: MVGW+a heavy trailer (IF you go for a trailer - design a new one with hub-motors! ...might as well use the trailer braking to charge batteries too!!)
If you want ONE MAIN MOTOR - it has to be able to maintain your "power requirement" sample: longest, heaviest climb at max speed....
IF you stick with your 3-motor layout, there is NO reason why NOT to drive all 3 all the time!
There is NO detriment to that at all - remember these are 3 completely independet drives - no connection what so ever, no twisting and torquing up any transfer box even on blacktop!
Bio - I was all in favor of this configuration and was "fighting" the hub-motors (go back and re-read if you care for!!). ...until I saw the Grimsel Racer and it's hub-motors!! These chage the game totally!
Just don't throw them out quite yet! Have your e-drive specialist engineering friends go through the numbers first!!
IF 3 central motor - ALL the same size
IF 1 MAIN central motor - senough size to maintain most or near max power driving and 4 hub-motor/generators (splitting the rest of the KW capacity) for re-gen braking and AWD-needs. This would give you the superior efficiency of ONE bigger motor (vs. many smaller ones), STILL give you the re-gen braking form the hub-motor/generators (which you will need under hard braking) and AWD when "having fun" (though with the lower efficiency of smaller e-motors, but when? 10% of the driving done!!)
WRONG again! ...see above!
GUESS what!!
SEE previous post!
What is good for Oskosh is not necessarily good for Terraliner!!
REMEMBER - Oshokosh is promoting to the Military - we don't even know WHAT the military wants or requires (in detail). We only see what Oshkosh thinks is the best solution for the specific Military requirements. Although at this point it seems that the Oskosh approach is a viable solution/option, but the Terraliner requirments afre DEFINITELY different from the military!!
Have your e-drive specialist engineering friends go through the numbers first!!
Again: Your Diesel-Generator Unit should provide enough power, so you can accelerate and maintain top speed on the longest, steepest, climb with a Max load on the rig, incl. a possible trailer - WITHOUT any battery assist! A rough calc would put the total weight around 35 tons between truck and heaviest trailer. About 400hp should do the trick (have some truck development engineer run the numbers) - I am taking the Austrian/Italian Brennerpaß as a reference. From my limited experience - that is about the steepest pass which you can do (mostly) at max speed if you have the power. Steeper passes hardly ever have straight enough runs to maintain max speed for more than minute, IF you get there in the first place. Driving slower, needs less power - spare power goes straight into the battery pack and helps you power out of the next switch-back.
Rough idea: 350-400hp (260-300kw) power-plant, 600hp (440kw) max TOTAL e-motor capability.
This way you have some serious power available for some time (depending how full/empty your batteries are)
Actually this is already a bit overboard, but you will need some serious re-gen capability if you want to be able to re-gen to the max!
So gen-mode should be able to push a LOT into the batteries (for serious braking work, like DOWN the steep pass we just climbed up - you will more likely need a serious SuperCondensator bank to catch the massive amount of braking engery coming in!)
You don't want to go over board with the e-power drive mode though, as things tend to break easier the harder you play!!
Look - to you it might seem extreme! BUT a 12m truck will fit 99% of the places a 10m truck goes!!
I know your base spec is a "couple"(elderly, enjoying their retirement, doing crazy stuff in the middle of nowhere... :wings::sombrero: ), but I bet there would be just as many families, bringing their 4 kids or mum and/or dad or grandpa/ma with the 4 kids or....you name it!
THAT's why I suggest the 8-12m approach. Structurally you designg for the "worst" case - 12m.
Then you build them all the same - just shortne the sections between structural columns....
If you are hot for the 10m - non problem! 8m enough - go for it! ALL out - 12m it is!!
5 different lenghts!! Pre-build/prepare different sections and finalise with the choosen length - I think with the price range of this thing you probably will built to order only anyway...
WHICH should be no problem if you have a modular approach to everything on the machine!
Bio! FORGET about the Earthroamer and/or idling!! You don't do either!!
First of all, Earthroamer is NOT a hybrid (parallel or serial) - if they have a problem with their alternators - too bad!
They should find a way to install a 5 kw or 10 kw generator!! (Most likely they try, but have a belt slipping problem! Generators of this size tend to need some serious grip!) A 10kw gen normally would go on a PTO or aux drive of the transfer-case or trans. Earthroamer's base-vehicles don't have any of that.
Then - IF they get a 5 or 10 KW gen on the rig - they will need a serious battery bank to be able to take on that kind of charge load!
The Earthroamer is genius development, but at their size storage and weight capacities are limited. For the present Earthroamer line I think a GOOD set of solar-panels, correctly installed and a 5 KW-Honda is all you would need!
As stated before - I believe the lower "efficiency limit" of Diesel-Generators is around 1/4 to 1/3 their rated power.
So - IF we take the 260kw unit from above - you want to run it at a minimum of 65KW output - your challenge is, to design the battery bank to be able to take that as a charge load!! I am sure - this will be a substantial bank, which in turn should enable you to run your household for 24-48 hrs!!
Charging at 65 KW - you are NOT idling you are CHARGING your POWERHOUSE!!!!
Anyway - most of the places where idling would be prohibited would have shore-power. Most places where I would go with Terraliner would not have shorepower within a 1000km radius! Most places I would go - NO one would care if I idle, 1/4 run or let the Diesel sing!!
Once Terraliners (or similar) become reality, all these regulations will change anyway. Can't imagine that people would be stupid enough to prohibit a big/efficient/clean/fast (short run time to full charge) Generator in favor of a smaller nad therfor less efficient gen-set that needs a lot longer ot charge your banks....
Then, .....you never know!
Depending on the brand and systems (pre-heat, pre-oil, computerized run control) - your IC-engine will probably be just as sturdy and long living as your generator!!
Most likely out living the rest of the rig. I'd say IS would be the most maintenance intensive part of the drive-chassis.
Of course a lot depends on your diligence with fuel/oil quality and changes.
WHICH reminds me: YOU NEED to provide a "fuel-quality assurance system"!!! You won't believe how Diesel quality changes all over the globe - ....and what crap people sell for Diesel in places!!
NOTHING faster to stop your trip than contaminated fuel in the system!!
Look, if YOU don't skimp on quality motor/gen, axles - most Terraliner owners will NEVER outlive these parts!! A good set should go 750-1000k km without a sweat!
E.g. Caterpillar!! Their big D11 goes through an engine rebuild every couple thousand hours - for the abuse it suffers from the hydraulic pumps it drives.
On the new D7E-drive - the Diesel hardly wears!! It is computer controlled according to the e-motor power requirements and totally de-coupled from everything but the generator. The computer decides when it is at max power, no chance to overload and abuse!! (Essentially the same as on the new Pistenbullys you mentioned)
I'd rather say "alleviated!"
WHAT?? You STILL din't check out the new Japanese Carbon-Carbon batteries?? 3x as many charges before they are dead, 20x faster charge rate, no minimum voltage to maintain at discharge, not heat-issues and proposed for vehicles!! Check it out:
http://www.gizmag.com/dual-carbon-fast-charging-battery/32121/
I may be wrong - but I believe that Ceramic brakes (disks) are mostly Racing-equipment exclusively - they need to get to a serious high temperature before they work!!
As mentioned before - with a excellent re-gen configuration, you friction-brake needs should be dramatically reduced compared to a conventional drive truck....
Brembo's are good, but about 70% of the price you pay for the brand-name!!
I never saw one, but I am sure if you insisted one could be built - imagine the hub of a Solid Portal-axle and the (usually) wishbones of a IS mounted on top and middle of the hub, instead on top and bottom. You get some serious ground clearance increase, STILL have the "problem" that the IS only raises the wheel and not the whole center of the axle/truck, and I would suggest it will need VERY MASSIVE wishbones ot deal with the added bending forces from the offset mounting relative to the wheel.
Whatever weight -advantage you got from the regular IS over the SA will certainly be gone.....
I'd say if this had some serious merit, we would have seen it somewhere - ...anyone..??
The Kudos need to go to CAMPO - he brought it back from the last Truck Expo!! (I think it was Campo!! ...?)
You have NO idea!! IF you ever ACTUALLY get Terraliner built - this will be one of the VERY big challenges!! You have MASSIVE amounts of electric energy going back and forth through the drive system and constantly changing!! To make this work you will need to engange some top engineers in the field!!
If you don't intend to ever build one - at least talk to some specialist engineer - so you cna make at least some smart comments to the control system!:sombrero:
If someone is interested in the technical aspect of Terraliner - THIS will be centeral conversation piece!!!
Damn if I remember!! I was looking for "MAN/KAT 6 wheeler" on google images or "MAN/KAT 6 wheeler Explorer" or either without the MAN/KAT...
[I like the draw-bar across th efront of the cage doing double-duty as a bumper!!]
Of course TAK-4 will show you the advantages of their turning radius!! They want to sell the equipment!!
They don't have to tell you, that a SA can turn just as tight as a IS!!
Look, the wheel is attached to the whole system at the hub. Wether that hub is connected to a IS (via wishbone or a trailing arm or ...?) or a SA doesn't matter!
The possible steering lock is determined by the way the drive-power is past through to the wheel - normally this is a CV-joint or a U-joint (cardan joint). At this size vehicle most likely a U-joint. Now naturally there are limits on how much you can "tilt" that joint before it starts to bind up. The longer and thinner the U-joint forks or the deeper relieved the ball pockets on a CV-joint, the greater the angle, the better the steering lock! .....and the more prone to snap!!
The question is just about the Joint, how much power, how much risk.
NOT if IS or AS!!
Bio, watch out!! Company brochures are fantastic (sometimes REALLY FANTASYtastic!) and sometimes they are so convincing that you become literally a believer!!
I went through that with the (in)famous K&N air-filters. Absolutely fantasytastic - and it made all perfect sense!!
Until someone finally put some realworld tests and analysis on paper!!
[I don't think K&N makes replacement filters for Diesel-Generators, so this is irrelevant for Terraliner - if you want the story in detail, let me know and I sned you the links!]
[Just as a starter - K&N tells you that thir filters flow 30% better than the stock paper/tissue filters. They also tell you, that their filters start to filter really well once soem serious dirt is on them!! oiled cotton filters.... - Tests show that when fresh their filtering is quite miserable until they get plugged up with some dirt - by then the 30% (...that are less in the test) are mostly gone! Now 30% more than a stock filter sounds like a lot of added power! ...until you realise (another serious of tests...) that in about 99% of all cases the airfilter accounts only for 2-5% of ALL of the intake restrictions!! So - how much overall increase in airflow do you get from those 30% of the 2-5%?? Do the math and you get a 0.7-2% increase of flow for the price of loads of dirt in the engine!!
You want more flow - start to clean up the intake path!! .....loads of samples available on: http://origin.autospeed.com/ ]
BTW - as mentioned somewhere above or before: I have nothing against IS, contrary, it is ecellent, just not the BEST system for Terraliner (in my book).
There are properties of a IS that a perfect and intentional for other applications, but detrimental for what I think Terraliner needs/wants.
'nough for tonight!!
thjakits
Last edited:
