2019 F350 6.2L 4WD build thread; HPI flatbed, ATO AterraXL composite camper, Carli/King, 37s, 4.88s, etc

[RAM5500 CAMPERTHING]

Even more important than thickness, I want all manufactures to list the R rating of walls, ceiling and floor since that is the important number (at least for heating and cooling). There is also the questions of ruggedness and durability since we are taking these on rough trails and washboard. A rating for that is harder to imagine. I just want some assurance that cabins and cabinetry are robust enough, on any these "overlanding" rigs.

R value of panels is 100% irrelevant when there’s so many windows

I learned this first hand

 

[Victorian]

Anyone can claim R ratings... I like to see proof with thermal imaging . That will tell you how efficient it is when it comes to running heaters/AC. You can put huge heaters in uninsulated boxes and you will be fine. But the difference will show as soon as you turn them off (for a quiet night, running low on fuel or power etc) . Then there is condensation on surfaces and bolted through accessories.

 

[Victorian]

R value of panels is 100% irrelevant when there’s so many windows

I learned this first hand

Correct. As soon as you add windows/doors or other openings, everything will change! Hence us only installing 1 double pane glass window in our latest build that is on it's way to the North Pole.

 

[Chadx]

R value of panels is 100% irrelevant when there’s so many windows

"Less relevant" I'll buy. But not 100% irrelevant. Ha. While absolutely true that any envelope area occupied by a window impacts the overall insulation factor, insulation factor for non-window areas is still very much relevant. Otherwise we wouldn't insulate camper or house walls/ceilings with a higher R value than our camper or house windows. You brought up your concern that panel thickness was too thin. Or was that concern raised related to structural integrity rather than insulation factor? I took it to be related to insulation factor, so maybe I misunderstood your intent.

 

[RAM5500 CAMPERTHING]

You brought up your concern that panel thickness was too thin. Or was that concern raised related to structural integrity rather than insulation factor? I took it to be related to insulation factor, so maybe I misunderstood your intent.

I think the structural integrity is sound because of the design and how it’s assembled. How well will a half inch panel take a whoopsy into a tree branch? No idea.. but someone is bound to find out at some point

My comment was more about insulation.

Very thin walls, and lots of windows.

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see there’s gonna be insulation issues and the R rating is almost comical with all those windows

 

[IdaSHO]

Whats being referred to is often called the "building envelope" Its an overall efficiency rating taking into account the r-value of the entire structure, based upon wall values and window values.
Its why triple pane windows have become so popular (residential home construction). In order to meet building envelope requirements AND run large windows, the R-value of the windows themselves must be increased.

But to be fair with respect to a camper the total conditioned volume is so low that you really cannot compare insulation values to that of a residential home.

Our camper has 1-1/2 XPS for wall, ceiling, and roof insulation. Add in the 6mm skin and its likely right about R-8
Windows are small, and dual pane. But still, not much insulation value.

And yet the thing has zero trouble keeping the cabin temps reasonable in conditions well below zero, all with a tiny 6kBTU LP furnace.
Sure, insulation in the walls helps but with the numbers I've run and in my opinion going beyond 2 inch wall adds unnecessary weight (and cost) and is a waste of interior space.
I would advise to always go with insulated windows, regardless.

 

[Chadx]

Absolutely the more windows (low insulation factor) on a given surface, the more the heat transfer (in or out) will occur. My point is even with a lot of windows, the wall insulation value plays significant role in overall temperature isolation, so I think manufacturers should share the R value of their walls, floor and ceilings. As buyers, we can take window surface area and other penetrations into consideration, but at least knowing the envelope wall panel R factor is an interesting spec that manufacturers should be able to provide. Same with pop-up softwall material which can very even more from manufacturer to manufacturer. The panel (or soft-top for that type of camper) R value may not be of much consequence for the average buyer's temperature use case, but it should be easy to provide so why not.

There are trade offs to consider, of course, with going with panels with higher R value and those tradeoffs may not be worth it for some manufacturers or the intended buyer audience. If AT Overland is prioritizing light weight for the AlterraXL, which I suspect is the case, then the walls will understandably be thinner with correspondingly lower R value. For the average user, it very well may be a reasonable design choice since from 30F to 70F, it won't make a significant difference in comfort or heating/cooling energy use. And, for those that operate at more extreme hot or cold ambient temps, a little more energy use (more propane to heat, for example) will compensate for lack of insulation while still enjoying significant weight savings over thicker panel walls. Or, for those that regularly camp in outlying temperatures (a lot of winter camping for example), they may choose a different camper all together.
We use our OEV Camp-X pop-top down a fair bit below freezing and are amazed at how little propane it takes to keep that pop-top camper comfortable. OEV claims R-8 walls and R-4 pop-top. Curious the R value of panels used in the AlterraXL. Maybe AT Overland determined that thicker/heavier panels were not worth the trade off in weight. Would be interesting to hear their design philosophy regarding that decision.

To make any comparisons, and simply because it really interests me, I'd love to see data on the total weight of ONLY the current AlterraXL panels and know their R-value. Then, see the overall weight of several thicknesses of thicker panels and their R value. Just curious if, with these particular panels what doubling or tripling wall thickness would do to overall weight and panel R value. Not sure if those increases would be linear or not. If so, then knowing current panel weight and R factor, we could simply multiply overall weight and panel R value by 2 or 3 if the panel thickness was increased by 2 or 3 times. Would doubling panel thickness add 50 lbs, 150lbs, 400lbs to the overall camper weight? I have no idea.

As noted, windows and other envelope penetrations are a factor to consider. One could measure and calculate the ratio of insulated panels to window to understand and compare different camper models. Same for selecting optional windows, as some campers offer, to understand the change in panel/window ratio.

In the end, I'm more interested in panel R values and weights simply because it's interesting to me. The panel R value isn't of much impact for the real world use in the average temps we camp in (25F - 70F). And the handful of times a year we camp at temps much cooler than that, we can easily burn a little more propane without carrying a lot of extra weight around the rest of the time. I want both high R value and low weight at the same time! but we can't always get what we want. Ha. If I had to rationally choose, for our use, light weight is more important than R value.

[Edit: If I'd waited a couple more minutes, I could have just said "x2" to what @IdaSHO said. Ha. ]

 

[IdaSHO]

[Edit: If I'd waited a couple more minutes, I could have just said "x2" to what @IdaSHO said. Ha. ]

lol No worries.

IMO, the takeaway is pretty simple in one word

Efficiency

Design it to be an efficient space to operate and live in. (flow)
Design and build it efficiently (low relative cost)
Design it to handle road travel efficiently. (low relative weight)
Design it to operate efficiently (low relative cost to heat/cool)
All the while building it in such a way that maintenance over the life of the camper is low (more efficiency)

Everything else will work itself out.

 

[rruff]

How well will a half inch panel take a whoopsy into a tree branch?

Probably really well! A thin panel will flex more easily, instead of cracking or being penetrated. Plus, I think they are using aluminum on all the edges which will make them tough. The PP honeycomb core is also stronger than the foams being used. So long as they are using good skins, it should be as robust as anything of comparable weight.

 

[ITTOG]

Quicker Access to Baton? This dude parties!!!

Here is what i use when the misses doesnt join, i put it on the passenger seat, holds items u mention above, but also huge water bottle, first aid kit, etc... Then when i get home, it all just zips up and i bring it inside. i find it tremdously useful and convienient:

5.11 Tactical Wingman Patrol Bag

The 5.11 Wingman Patrol Bag has a place for everything and keeps everything in its place! For the ultimate in portable organization, the 5.11 Wingman Patrol...

www.galls.com

I use one of their backpacks. This is a much better option. Thanks for sharing.

 

[RAM5500 CAMPERTHING]

I use one of their backpacks. This is a much better option. Thanks for sharing.

No Problemo

Their main showroom used to be just down the street from my house here in SD and was always good to swing by and check out the returns bin for crazy discounts.

Bummed it’s gone, but I still use their stuff all the time

 

[RAM5500 CAMPERTHING]

Probably really well! A thin panel will flex more easily, instead of cracking or being penetrated. Plus, I think they are using aluminum on all the edges which will make them tough. The PP honeycomb core is also stronger than the foams being used. So long as they are using good skins, it should be as robust as anything of comparable weight.

Could be... Might not be...

Thats what i find odd about the whole thing.

VERY limited details on the makeup and construction, and the details that are listed are still VERY generic and broad, almost to the point of evasive...

Aluminum corners? Maybe... Not mentioned how the thing is assembled anywhere other then generic use of "innovative" and "exquisitely"

 

[kmacafee]

Saw em, thought about em, didn't want to be like everyone else, especially RAM550000Thang. ?
But more seriously, I believe I found them to be too wide for my dog entry (they'd hit the door panel), since the rear doors of the truck don't open up 90deg. How wide are they outside-outside; 20"?

I’m a little late to this and it appears you have solved your stair problem but for those with flatbed campers, here’s what works for me. I use the Torklift stairs and store them folded inside the camper door. They are held in place with a strap run through a deadman loop. Easy to access and they don’t move when traveling.

I also saw the comment about climbing on the rear wheel to gain access without the ladder. I went to either West Marine or McMaster and bought mast steps. They fold up when not in use and are easier for me to use as I get older.

Finally, to keep the steps “flexible”, I periodically power wash them clean and lube each of the joints and they work like new.

cheers

 

[sg1]

I had the opportunity to inspect the Aterra in great detail. I like the floorplan and the components they use. Workmanship looked good. I didn't like the walls. They are very thin, about 1/2 max3/4 inch and supposedly honeycomb. I obviously couldn't verify that. This means they have very little insulation value. In a small unit you can compensate for that by heating more. The problem is that the walls will be cold and you may have condensation isuues especially since the heater appears to have only one outlet. It will have problems to reach the alcove and especially the area under the bed. I decided that this camper is not made for Canada.

 

[RAM5500 CAMPERTHING]

I’m a little late to this and it appears you have solved your stair problem but for those with flatbed campers, here’s what works for me. I use the Torklift stairs and store them folded inside the camper door. They are held in place with a strap run through a deadman loop. Easy to access and they don’t move when traveling.

I also saw the comment about climbing on the rear wheel to gain access without the ladder. I went to either West Marine or McMaster and bought mast steps. They fold up when not in use and are easier for me to use as I get older.

Finally, to keep the steps “flexible”, I periodically power wash them clean and lube each of the joints and they work like new.

cheersView attachment 769921View attachment 769922View attachment 769923

That’s exactly how I used them with my FWC.

Worked perfect, doesn’t waste useable storage